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laudamus_te
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Refer back to post #43 of this thread.
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latinmass
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Thank you. This may help in some N.O. Masses where there are many abuses. When I travel I often can’t find a TLM.Refer back to post #43 of this thread.
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laudamus_te
Guest
It is not a matter of finding the Mass lacking in any way. It is simply another way of drawing close to Christ during His sacrifice. It is not making up for something, it is not substituting anything… it is just in addition.Are we to think Pope Pius X found the Mass lacking that this needed to be condoned?
What else should be allowed to be added? That is the bottomline – extra personal nuances being added to the Mass.
Do you offer any personal prayers at all during the Holy Mass? This is what we should do, yet what is this but “extra personal nuances”? You are suggesting that we must crack open our missals and follow word-for-word the entire Mass, without any personal meditation, or else we have not properly assisted. This is very narrow-minded. When the Holy Ghost is working in us, we must obey the instinct to listen to what He is saying to us, even during the Mass. To close our minds to such an opportunity is to lose that opportunity, and hence an opportunity to receive special graces.
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laudamus_te
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You’re welcome. I can’t think of a better time to pray the Rosary than during some Novus Ordo masses. I find it to be a perfect way to turn one’s attention to what should be the center of our attention, Jesus Christ the Sacrificial Lamb, rather than man.Thank you. This may help in some N.O. Masses where there are many abuses. When I travel I often can’t find a TLM.
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Eilish_Maura
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What is the problem with totally focusing on what is actually happening in the mass (EF or OF)? Isn’t that the reason we have access to the actual words of the liturgy?It is not a matter of finding the Mass lacking in any way. It is simply another way of drawing close to Christ during His sacrifice. It is not making up for something, it is not substituting anything… it is just in addition.
Do you offer any personal prayers at all during the Holy Mass? This is what we should do, yet what is this but “extra personal nuances”? You are suggesting that we must crack open our missals and follow word-for-word the entire Mass, without any personal meditation, or else we have not properly assisted. This is very narrow-minded. When the Holy Ghost is working in us, we must obey the instinct to listen to what He is saying to us, even during the Mass. To close our minds to such an opportunity is to lose that opportunity, and hence an opportunity to receive special graces.
The rosary never stops being a personal private devotion.
It is not part of the Mass.
It is a very real possibility that this practice was condoned because at that time people generally did not really participate because of Latin in much the same way one of the origins of the rosary was an effort of the laity to pray the Psalms with religious communities.
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laudamus_te
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Not true. It is a falsehood put forth by people attached to the Novus Ordo, and especially those who dislike the TLM, that not being fluent in Latin prevents one from participating in the Mass. I am not fluent in Latin. I participate and follow the Mass perfectly well. Why would it have been any different for Catholics at the time of St. Pius X? On the contrary, I believe Catholics at that time had a much better understanding of the Latin language than they do now.What is the problem with totally focusing on what is actually happening in the mass (EF or OF)? Isn’t that the reason we have access to the actual words of the liturgy?
The rosary never stops being a personal private devotion.
It is not part of the Mass.
It is a very real possibility that this practice was condoned because at that time people generally did not really participate because of Latin in much the same way one of the origins of the rosary was an effort of the laity to pray the Psalms with religious communities.
To answer your first question, there is nothing wrong with totally focusing on the actual words of the liturgy. I never argued otherwise. I do it on a daily basis. Occasionally, on a weekday, I will include the Eucharistic Rosary, which is a perfectly proper and acceptable thing to do. You have it from Pope St. Pius X himself, but some would rather second-guess his intentions rather than accept that something outside of their realm of experience has merit.
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latinmass
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You are really reachinig. St. Pope Pius X advocated participation in the Mass. They had Missals then also, following along was not a problem for those who wanted too. It seems odd for me to think of doing the rosary during the TLM with my simple mind, but maybe that’s the point.What is the problem with totally focusing on what is actually happening in the mass (EF or OF)? Isn’t that the reason we have access to the actual words of the liturgy?
The rosary never stops being a personal private devotion.
It is not part of the Mass.
It is a very real possibility that this practice was condoned because at that time people generally did not really participate because of Latin in much the same way one of the origins of the rosary was an effort of the laity to pray the Psalms with religious communities.
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
No it is not reaching.You are really reachinig. St. Pope Pius X advocated participation in the Mass. They had Missals then also, following along was not a problem for those who wanted too. It seems odd for me to think of doing the rosary during the TLM with my simple mind, but maybe that’s the point.
The condoning of this practice seems very much at odds with active participation in the mass because it is gives a sense of approval to add something extra to the liturgy which is in, in truth, a private devotional practice.
I wonder now if this is the root of the misconception that the Mass is private prayer time.
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
It being “perfectly” proper, if one truly acknowledges that it is some kind of overlay on a valid Mass, is questionable.Not true. It is a falsehood put forth by people attached to the Novus Ordo, and especially those who dislike the TLM, that not being fluent in Latin prevents one from participating in the Mass. I am not fluent in Latin. I participate and follow the Mass perfectly well. Why would it have been any different for Catholics at the time of St. Pius X? On the contrary, I believe Catholics at that time had a much better understanding of the Latin language than they do now.
To answer your first question, there is nothing wrong with totally focusing on the actual words of the liturgy. I never argued otherwise. I do it on a daily basis. Occasionally, on a weekday, I will include the Eucharistic Rosary, which is a perfectly proper and acceptable thing to do. You have it from Pope St. Pius X himself, but some would rather second-guess his intentions rather than accept that something outside of their realm of experience has merit.
That YOU can, in this day and age, follow the Latin does not mean the average person could in the time this private practice was condoned.
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laudamus_te
Guest
What would make you think such a thing? Do you believe that people were stupid then? Was there no such thing as a missal? It’s not about “following the Latin,” it’s about knowing what is happening when on the altar, and it doesn’t even take a missal to know that. That you would presume to assert that someone praying the Rosary during the TLM is not worshiping properly is rather arrogant.It being “perfectly” proper, if one truly acknowledges that it is some kind of overlay on a valid Mass, is questionable.
That YOU can, in this day and age, follow the Latin does not mean the average person could in the time this private practice was condoned.
Furthermore, I am not in the habit of questioning the saints. May I ask, do you assist at the TLM or the Novus Ordo?
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Eilish_Maura
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The fact is the rosary is a private devotion and the Mass is not.What would make you think such a thing? Do you believe that people were stupid then? Was there no such thing as a missal? It’s not about “following the Latin,” it’s about knowing what is happening when on the altar, and it doesn’t even take a missal to know that. That you would presume to assert that someone praying the Rosary during the TLM is not worshiping properly is rather arrogant.
Furthermore, I am not in the habit of questioning the saints. May I ask, do you assist at the TLM or the Novus Ordo?
The fact is the Mass is not deficient in any way, shape or form.
It is, at best, a questionable tool whose propriety and origin creates questions.
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laudamus_te
Guest
True, the Traditional Latin Mass is not deficient in any way, shape or form. No one should question that fact. But to question the propriety of utilizing some particular devotion during Mass is wrong. It has been approved by Popes. Since Pope St. Pius X is not good enough to alter your opinion, how about Pope Pius XII?The fact is the rosary is a private devotion and the Mass is not.
The fact is the Mass is not deficient in any way, shape or form.
It is, at best, a questionable tool whose propriety and origin creates questions.
So you can see from this that not having a good understanding of the rites is one reason, but it is by no means the only, or even the most compelling, reason. If I feel inspired by the Holy Ghost to meditate on the mysteries of the Rosary one day during Mass, who are you to say that I am not worshiping properly? Pope Pius XII has spelled it out pretty clearly, has he not?Many of the faithful are unable to use the Roman missal even though it is written in the vernacular; nor are all capable of understanding correctly the liturgical rites and formulas. So varied and diverse are men’s talents and characters that it is impossible for all to be moved and attracted to the same extent by community prayers, hymns and liturgical services. Moreover, the needs and inclinations of all are not the same, nor are they always constant in the same individual. Who, then, would say, on account of such a prejudice, that all these Christians cannot participate in the Mass nor share its fruits? On the contrary, they can adopt some other method which proves easier for certain people; for instance, they can lovingly meditate on the mysteries of Jesus Christ or perform other exercises of piety or recite prayers which, though they differ from the sacred rites, are still essentially in harmony with them.
Encyclical Mediator Dei, para. 108
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palmas85
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So I must assume that you condone no additions to the Mass correct?This is not about understanding another person’s heart but about condoning additions to the Mass.
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
It is not wrong to question the propriety of any extra personal devotional practice during the Mass - especially since the Mass lacks nothing.True, the Traditional Latin Mass is not deficient in any way, shape or form. No one should question that fact. But to question the propriety of utilizing some particular devotion during Mass is wrong. It has been approved by Popes. Since Pope St. Pius X is not good enough to alter your opinion, how about Pope Pius XII?
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
I do not condone the use of private devotional practices during the Mass.So I must assume that you condone no additions to the Mass correct?
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
It looks like assignment of busy work in an effort to keep the attention of those who cannot/will not work with the missal.So you can see from this that not having a good understanding of the rites is one reason, but it is by no means the only, or even the most compelling, reason. If I feel inspired by the Holy Ghost to meditate on the mysteries of the Rosary one day during Mass, who are you to say that I am not worshiping properly? Pope Pius XII has spelled it out pretty clearly, has he not?
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laudamus_te
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Even when two popes advocate it? Well, all I can say is you are being obstinate in the extreme.It is not wrong to question the propriety of any extra personal devotional practice during the Mass - especially since the Mass lacks nothing.
You also have a good way of dodging questions. Do you attend the TLM or Novus Ordo?
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palmas85
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Your statement was and I quoteI do not condone the use of private devotional practices during the Mass.
This is not about understanding another person’s heart but about condoning additions to the Mass.
Nothing there about private devotions. So are you saying that you do not condone additions to the Mass, which is what you said or that you do not condone only private devotions being added to the Mass?
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
I am not ‘dodging’ any question - I am however refusing to personalize it just as I have not at any time remarked about persons but the practice of this private devotion.Even when two popes advocate it? Well, all I can say is you are being obstinate in the extreme.
You also have a good way of dodging questions. Do you attend the TLM or Novus Ordo?
Two popes, ten popes - it does not matter. Either one truly believes the Mass is sufficient in itself or it needs something.
If both really felt that strongly they could have written it into the missal and made official and not left as an extra private devotion done when one should really be making every effort to pay attention to the Mass.
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
I have been very clear in this discussion that the addition was/is a personal private devotional item.Your statement was and I quote
This is not about understanding another person’s heart but about condoning additions to the Mass.
Nothing there about private devotions. So are you saying that you do not condone additions to the Mass, which is what you said or that you do not condone only private devotions being added to the Mass?
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