Rubutting a Baptist on Faith and Works

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The problem with Catholics saying we are saved by Faith is that protestants will understand that to mean “saved by faith alone.” They will then claim Catholics have changed doctrines and they [protestants] were correct all the while. And while you may have a different understanding of the statement than they do the problem with it is that it does not clarify the issue and not only adds more confusion on top of an already confused matter but then calls into question other issues. This is similar to protestants saying Mary is not the mother of God, only the mother of Christ. Would you agree with them on that or would you say that she is the Theotokos not the Christotokos as the Council of Ephesus stated in its condemnation of Nestorius?
Let us not let them co-op the term. 🙂 It is right out of scripture.

One can of course explain when talking to a protestant what Paul and the Church means…

Perhaps give them the two Catechesis’s (above) from Pope Benedict XVI…he explains things nicely 🙂

And one can even understand their term ‘faith alone’ (even though it is not scriptural) in a Catholic sense…as Pope Benedict XVI notes…and as dialogue between Lutherans and Catholics has gotten into…
 
Would you agree with them on that or would you say that she is the Theotokos not the Christotokos as the Council of Ephesus stated in its condemnation of Nestorius?
Of course she is the Theotokos. For Christ is the Son of God…2nd person of the Holy Trinity…
 
I see I am coming very late to this thread. I have not read through all of the responses and will not hang around but I fashoned this list some time ago and think it might help the OP in his discussion.

The thing about faith and works is that it is not an “either or” but rather a “both and” situation.

Belief, Grace, Faith, Love and Works are interwoven pieces. They cannot be separated. They can only be placed in “order”.
  1. We begin with Grace. Grace is the supernatural foundation. The “seed” that God plants in every soul that enables it to find it’s way back to God.
  2. Then comes Belief. We must believe in something before anything else. If we do not believe in God, then the seed of Grace will not grow.
  3. After Belief comes Faith. The difference between belief and faith, is simply this: I may believe in the existence of banks, but do I have faith in them. Faith gets into trusting and believing in the promises of God and believing in Jesus Christ and salvation through doing the will of the Father. Learning and developing our faith is nurturing and allowing the seed of God’s grace to grow in us.
  4. Then Comes Love. Jesus places Love as the Greatest and center of all of the Law and prophets. What we Love and covet is how we know “where our heart is”. If we Love God and wish to do His will, then we will Love our neighbor unselfishly and wish to act in ways that are pleasing to our love - who is God Himself.
  5. Then comes Works. If we believe properly, that is we have a trusting belief, then works will necessarily follow. If works do not follow then there is a problem with one of the above.
I hope some of this helps you.

Peace
James
 
First, at the time that Christ said this, Christian baptism had not yet been instituted. There was no such thing at that time as baptism “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” It therefore would have been impossible for Nicodemus to understand “born of water” as referring to water baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
John 3:5 does not even refer to water baptism, or to any form of baptism. It therefore does not prove the necessity of water baptism for salvation.
“Christian baptism had not yet been instituted.” This statement I believe is somewhat misleading. Baptism had certainly been around, Christian or not. So Nicodemus would know what baptism was. Christian baptism? Well, immediately after, in John 3:22, Christ goes and baptizes! If Christ is doing the baptizing, it must be Christian!

“It would have been impossible for Nicodemus to understand ‘born of water’ as referring to water baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” Technically yes, in scripture this formula for baptizing isn’t given until Christ ascends, Mt 28:19. But this again doesn’t mean that Nicodemus wouldn’t understand that Christ meant water baptism. I doubt Nicodemus would have done all the complicated exegesis needed to try to understand otherwise!
 
“Christian baptism had not yet been instituted.” This statement I believe is somewhat misleading. Baptism had certainly been around, Christian or not. So Nicodemus would know what baptism was. Christian baptism? Well, immediately after, in John 3:22, Christ goes and baptizes! If Christ is doing the baptizing, it must be Christian!

“It would have been impossible for Nicodemus to understand ‘born of water’ as referring to water baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” Technically yes, in scripture this formula for baptizing isn’t given until Christ ascends, Mt 28:19. But this again doesn’t mean that Nicodemus wouldn’t understand that Christ meant water baptism. I doubt Nicodemus would have done all the complicated exegesis needed to try to understand otherwise!
Jesus was not Baptizing personally…John clarifies later…4:2

and it would note be Christian Baptism yet…

though of course Jesus was referring to baptism in that late night conversation…
 
Jesus was not Baptizing personally…John clarifies later…4:2

and it would note be Christian Baptism yet…

though of course Jesus was referring to baptism in that late night conversation…
What effect did these early baptisms, done by Christ or under His supervision, have?

Were they the born again (or born from above) kind that Jesus meant when talking to Nicodemus? If so, they were Christian in effect. If not, then these followers of Christ would have to have been re-baptized later, after the Trinitarian formula was given.
 
What effect did these early baptisms, done by Christ or under His supervision, have?

Were they the born again (or born from above) kind that Jesus meant when talking to Nicodemus? If so, they were Christian in effect. If not, then these followers of Christ would have to have been re-baptized later, after the Trinitarian formula was given.
it would seem they were baptisms of repentance…like John’s …

not Christian baptism
 
Jesus referred to lots of things that would only come to be after his death and resurrection…
 
it would seem they were baptisms of repentance…like John’s …

not Christian baptism
In other words, when the disciples were baptizing people (under Jesus’ supervision) immediately after Jesus’ words to Nicodemus, these people weren’t being born from above? These baptisms were merely symbolic? They weren’t effectual?

If the disciples were baptizing for Jesus, that means baptizing in Christ’s name. Hmm…so baptizing in Christ’s name isn’t Christian baptism…

I mean, my basic question still isn’t answered, did these people need to be re-baptized in order to become Christian and be born again? If so, this would surely be confusing to Nicodemus.
 
In other words, when the disciples were baptizing people (under Jesus’ supervision) immediately after Jesus’ words to Nicodemus, these people weren’t being born from above? These baptisms were merely symbolic? They weren’t effectual?

If the disciples were baptizing for Jesus, that means baptizing in Christ’s name. Hmm…so baptizing in Christ’s name isn’t Christian baptism…

I mean, my basic question still isn’t answered, did these people need to be re-baptized in order to become Christian and be born again? If so, this would surely be confusing to Nicodemus.
No not Christian Baptism. Not the kind of being “baptized in Christs name” and was a shorthand for being Baptized into Christ as a Christian.

so yes they would need to be Baptized as Christians after Christ’s death and resurrection.

The baptisms at this point were all pointing towards repentance and prep for turning to the Christ
 
In other words, when the disciples were baptizing people (under Jesus’ supervision) immediately after Jesus’ words to Nicodemus, these people weren’t being born from above? These baptisms were merely symbolic? They weren’t effectual?

If the disciples were baptizing for Jesus, that means baptizing in Christ’s name. Hmm…so baptizing in Christ’s name isn’t Christian baptism…

I mean, my basic question still isn’t answered, did these people need to be re-baptized in order to become Christian and be born again? If so, this would surely be confusing to Nicodemus.
No not Christian Baptism. The person did not die and rise with Christ…etc they did not effect the change that Christian Baptism would via the Holy Spirit. Not the kind of being “baptized in Christs name” and was a shorthand for being Baptized into Christ as a Christian.

so yes they would need to be Baptized as Christians after Christ’s death and resurrection.

The baptisms at this point were all pointing towards repentance and prep for turning to the Christ

Jesus spoke of many things ahead of time…

Nicodemus …who would be personally involved in the burial of Christ …would have been around for the preaching of Peter we would assume or would have got wind later…of the events…
 
No not Christian Baptism. The person did not die and rise with Christ…etc they did not effect the change that Christian Baptism would via the Holy Spirit. Not the kind of being “baptized in Christs name” and was a shorthand for being Baptized into Christ as a Christian.

so yes they would need to be Baptized as Christians after Christ’s death and resurrection.

The baptisms at this point were all pointing towards repentance and prep for turning to the Christ

Jesus spoke of many things ahead of time…

Nicodemus …who would be personally involved in the burial of Christ …would have been around for the preaching of Peter we would assume or would have got wind later…of the events…
Interesting ideas.

What bothers me is that Nicodemus at that time would have been aware of only one kind of water baptism, not the two kinds espoused above. You think he would assume the water baptism (“born of water and the spirit”) spoken of by Christ at that moment would also be the water baptism Christ was directing His disciples to perform at that time.

That is, there is no reason Nicodemus would know that Jesus was speaking of things ahead of time, and that Jesus was distinguishing between two kinds of water baptism and that later He would reveal what kind of baptism He really meant.

It’s true, in baptism we die and rise with Christ, and Christ hadn’t died yet.

Puzzling, unless the Protestants are right after all.
 
Interesting ideas.

What bothers me is that Nicodemus at that time would have been aware of only one kind of water baptism, not the two kinds espoused above. You think he would assume the water baptism (“born of water and the spirit”) spoken of by Christ at that moment would also be the water baptism Christ was directing His disciples to perform at that time.

That is, there is no reason Nicodemus would know that Jesus was speaking of things ahead of time, and that Jesus was distinguishing between two kinds of water baptism and that later He would reveal what kind of baptism He really meant.

It’s true, in baptism we die and rise with Christ, and Christ hadn’t died yet.
Nicodemus may have still had no understanding of what Jesus said at all even after the conversation!

Also He may have gone right home that night and not seen even been anywhere around Jesus’s disciples for days or weeks or months…after all he came at night…he was not a public follower…

Prob. mused about it until Pentecost…

Then it clicked sometime after Pentecost…when the Holy Spirit came!

Even the Apostles…did not understand a number of things until later…

One can find this explained like this as well in the Navarre Commentary if you have the one for John.

we have to be careful about our hindsight…
 
Justin Martyr

“As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
 
Protestants quote Paul’s words exclusively. They would like to ignore James. Remember that Luther wanted to remove Jame’s epistle from the NT calling it “an epistle of straw” because he could not harmonize it with his theology. But notice what Luther could not. Everywhere Paul went he preached against the Judiacizers. These were Jewish converts who insisted that the Gentile converts first become Jews and subject to the Law of Moses and all of its WORKS before they could become Christians. Paul preached against this everywhere he went. The WORKS that Paul preached about were WORKS OF THE MOSAIC LAW. The Judiacizers were mired in the Old Covenant. But Christians, be they former Jew or Gentiles were not subject to the Old Covenant but the New Covenant. For instance Paul preached against circumcision which was a work of the Old Covenant. The WORKS Paul preached against were not the corporal works of mercy of feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc. what we know today as 'GOOD WORKS" that James speaks of.
First of all Paul taught that any works whether those of the Mosaic Law or general works were not meritorious in the eyes of the Lord.

The strongest of course is:
Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Pauline doctrine is replete with the concept our works mean naught in the equation of salvation.
Protestants, stuck with the Epistle of James in their NT canon, try to harmonize Pauls words on works with those seemingly contradictory words of James by saying that what James says of works is to “justify us before men” whereas faith “justifies us before God”. What a bunch of **** that is. Since when are we supposed to justify ourselves before any man? What good does that do? Nothing, absolutely nothing. But this is the best that protestants can come up with because they start with error and they end with even bigger error.
Exactly, you make the point very well. Are you so foolish, do you actually think that God does not know who is justified? Do you believe the Lord is so inept that he must depend on oh sinful man to make up for something he failed to do at the cross. You are tangled in a web of deceit and bound by chains of demonic doctrine.
On the other hand we Catholics can harmonize Paul and James perfectly because their words are not contradictory. The “works” that each speak of are not the same works. Paul speaks of “WORKS OF THE LAW” such as circumcision while James speaks of “GOOD WORKS” as in the corporal works of mercy [feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc.] So Paul and James are not contradicting each other.

This why Catholics can do something that protestants cannot. That is to harmonize our theology with other scripture passages such as Romans 2:6-11

“6.For he will render to every man according to his works: 7.to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8.but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9.There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10.but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11.For God shows no partiality.”
[Romans 2:6-11 RSV]

It doesn’t say God will render to every man according to his faith now does it. So, do our works justify us before man or God? And may I remind our protestant friends viewing this that the only time the words “faith alone” appear in the scripture the words “and not by” preceed it.
  1. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. [James 2:23 RSV]
Your blindness is only surpassed by that of the Teaching Magisterium. If you would but read and understand Jesus when he clearly defined for the RCC and the Pharisees what the word “works” means, you would find yourself resting in the finish works of Christ rather than trying to attain salvation for yourself.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

WORK OF GOD = YOU BELIEVE IN HIM.
Read this S L O W L Y…if you don’t get it read it again. Once you understand then read James, you will then understand what is being said.

Take off the distorted lenses of the Teaching Magisterium and enter New Testament reality, Your King and Savior accomplished what you and your pitiful works could not, salvation. Your works are worthless, as rags when compared to His.

Concerning James:
The solution of the difficulty appears in the definition of the word “faith.” The apparent contradiction is due simply to the fact that when James in this chapter says that “faith” alone is insufficient, he means a different thing by the word “faith” from that which Paul means by it when he says that faith is all-sufficient. The kind of faith which James is pronouncing insufficient is made clear in the nineteenth verse of the same chapter: “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.” The kind of faith which James pronounces insufficient is the faith which the devils also have; it is a mere intellectual apprehension of the facts about God or Christ, and it involves no acceptance of those facts as a gift of God to one’s own soul. It is called dead faith, not the saving faith of Christ
 
Hey unacanta –

How about YOU read THIS S-L-O-W-L-Y and then try to tell me that good works are not necessary to obtain eternal life:

Romans 2:

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 **To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: **

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

And then there is this one:

John 5:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth;** they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;** and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There’s gonna be some seriously disappointed Protestants on the Judgment Day when they wind up before the Lord with empty hands and are told “Depart from me, I never knew you.”
 
First of all Paul taught that any works whether those of the Mosaic Law or general works were not meritorious in the eyes of the Lord.

The strongest of course is:
Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Pauline doctrine is replete with the concept our works mean naught in the equation of salvation.
Now if we are saved by God’s mercy as Titus 3:5 says then “sola fide” is heresy. Also if our works are “naught in the equation of salvation” then how can scripture say that God will render to every man according to their works [Ro 2:6] Obviously works figure into “the equation of salvation” somehow but the protestant doctrine [or praxis, if you want] of "sola fide’ does not take it into account.

QUOTE=unacanta;6383136]Exactly, you make the point very well. Are you so foolish, do you actually think that God does not know who is justified? Do you believe the Lord is so inept that he must depend on oh sinful man to make up for something he failed to do at the cross. You are tangled in a web of deceit and bound by chains of demonic doctrine.

Your blindness is only surpassed by that of the Teaching Magisterium. If you would but read and understand Jesus when he clearly defined for the RCC and the Pharisees what the word “works” means, you would find yourself resting in the finish works of Christ rather than trying to attain salvation for yourself.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

WORK OF GOD = YOU BELIEVE IN HIM.
Read this S L O W L Y…if you don’t get it read it again. Once you understand then read James, you will then understand what is being said.

Take off the distorted lenses of the Teaching Magisterium and enter New Testament reality, Your King and Savior accomplished what you and your pitiful works could not, salvation. Your works are worthless, as rags when compared to His.

Concerning James:
The solution of the difficulty appears in the definition of the word “faith.” The apparent contradiction is due simply to the fact that when James in this chapter says that “faith” alone is insufficient, he means a different thing by the word “faith” from that which Paul means by it when he says that faith is all-sufficient. The kind of faith which James is pronouncing insufficient is made clear in the nineteenth verse of the same chapter: “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.” The kind of faith which James pronounces insufficient is the faith which the devils also have; it is a mere intellectual apprehension of the facts about God or Christ, and it involves no acceptance of those facts as a gift of God to one’s own soul. It is called dead faith, not the saving faith of Christ

My, My, My, a little testy aren’t we. By the way, forget the saved by works accusation. It isn’t true and never was. We are saved by grace. Okay? That is the teaching of the Catholic Church. You protestants keep beating the stuffing out of a strawman called “saved by works” that you created in your false allegations. You can go to hell for lying don’t you know. It’s called bearing false witness in the Commandments.

In addition, Paul never says that the devils have any faith. He says that they ‘believe’ there is one God. Now what is their belief based on? Is it based on faith OR is it based on knowledge? Paul tells us that Faith “is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” [Hebrews 11:1] Did the Devils have conviction of things not seen? NO, the devils were angels and prior to their fall participated in the vision of God. They actually saw and witnessed God. They didn’t have to have faith to believe they had actual knowledge. They KNEW! So as usual, your argument fails.
 
Hey unacanta –

How about YOU read THIS S-L-O-W-L-Y and then try to tell me that good works are not necessary to obtain eternal life:

Romans 2:

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 **To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: **

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

And then there is this one:

John 5:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth;** they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;** and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There’s gonna be some seriously disappointed Protestants on the Judgment Day when they wind up before the Lord with empty hands and are told “Depart from me, I never knew you.”
You muddy the water by casting scripture against scripture:

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
The New King James Version. 1982 (Tit 3:4-5). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

Every deed done has to and originates from the Holy Spirit:
3 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
The New King James Version. 1982 (Php 2:13). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

You are so quick the accept the saving mercy of Christ upon you soul, now you want to present your works as merit before Him, as if His life, death and resurrection is not enough?? If you read Rom2 through the eyes of understanding rather than the blurred vision of the Teaching Magisterium, then you would acknowledge before men what God has accomplished in your life, you are saved not by deeds done in righteousness but rather His mercy. The one disappointed on the Judgment Day will be those who have not placed their faith in Christ for the Christian is not to be judged, but rather his judgment concerning sin has been accomplished;

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, she who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life
The New King James Version. 1982 (Jn 5:24). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
 
Originally Posted by unacanta
First of all Paul taught that any works whether those of the Mosaic Law or general works were not meritorious in the eyes of the Lord.

The strongest of course is:
Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Pauline doctrine is replete with the concept our works mean naught in the equation of salvation.

This has to do with BEING SAVED through BAPTISM. He is saying that we are SAVED by God’s Mercy, NOT by works. In other words, you cannot equate being saved by doing works as the same as being baptized.

But he is ALSO saying that our works AFTER OUR SALVATION ***DO ***COUNT, and *we will be judged *by our personal works of mercy (works of LOVE) in the sight of the Lord on the last day, even on the last day of our lives on earth. In fact, these are the works EVERY HUMAN BEING will be judged on. I call them the corporal and spiritual works of mercy.
 
In addition, Paul never says that the devils have any faith. He says that they ‘believe’ there is one God. Now what is their belief based on? Is it based on faith OR is it based on knowledge? Paul tells us that Faith “is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” [Hebrews 11:1] Did the Devils have conviction of things not seen? NO, the devils were angels and prior to their fall participated in the vision of God. They actually saw and witnessed God. They didn’t have to have faith to believe they had actual knowledge. They KNEW! So as usual, your argument fails.
The red herring you have brought up concerning the demonic faith nor lack thereof has not been mentioned by me. So what ever logic you are applying when considering “your argument fails” is lost in the weeds of subterfuge.
My, My, My, a little testy aren’t we. By the way, forget the saved by works accusation. It isn’t true and never was. We are saved by grace. Okay? That is the teaching of the Catholic Church. You protestants keep beating the stuffing out of a strawman called “saved by works” that you created in your false allegations. You can go to hell for lying don’t you know. It’s called bearing false witness in the Commandments.
LOL, not testy by no means. The contradiction which is so apparent here when the statement “we are saved by grace”, but…notice the conjunction there is always something from the RCC point of view which needs to be added.

The boasting by the RCC and their doctrine of “works” is appalling when the stark reality of scriptures slashes every deed done in righteousness

RCC you boast in the law of works
English Standard Version - Romans 2:17
But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God

RCC you dishonor God by boasting in the law of works
English Standard Version - Romans 2:23
You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law.

RCC your boasting is excluded
English Standard Version - Romans 3:27
Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.

RCC your boasting of works is before men not before God
English Standard Version - Romans 4:2
For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Please RCC, try to follow Paul and boast not of your works.
 
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