Rubutting a Baptist on Faith and Works

[Bookcat]

“Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).”–Pope Benedict XVI

Pauls use of the term “Faith” often involves a good deal…

 

[Bookcat]

From a much earlier Audience (2006) of Pope Benedict XVI

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html

I highlighted a few…but please read the whole thing

St Paul’s new outlook

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

In our previous Catechesis two weeks ago, I endeavoured to sketch the essential lines of the biography of the Apostle Paul. We saw how his encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus literally revolutionized his life. Christ became his raison d’être and the profound motivation of all his apostolic work.

In his Letters, after the Name of God which appears more than 500 times, the name most frequently mentioned is Christ’s (380 times). Thus, it is important to realize what a deep effect Jesus Christ can have on a person’s life, hence, also on our own lives. Actually, the history of salvation culminates in Jesus Christ, and thus he is also the true discriminating point in the dialogue with other religions.

Looking at Paul, this is how we could formulate the basic question: how does a human being’s encounter with Christ occur? And of what does the relationship that stems from it consist? The answer given by Paul can be understood in two stages.

**In the first place, Paul helps us to understand the absolutely basic and irreplaceable value of faith. This is what he wrote in his Letter to the Romans: “We hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law” (3: 28).
**
This is what he also wrote in his Letter to the Galatians: “[M]an is not justified by works of the law but only through faith in Jesus Christ; even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified” (2: 16).

“Being justified” means being made righteous, that is, being accepted by God’s merciful justice to enter into communion with him and, consequently, to be able to establish a far more genuine relationship with all our brethren: and this takes place on the basis of the complete forgiveness of our sins.

Well, Paul states with absolute clarity that this condition of life does not depend on our possible good works but on the pure grace of God: “[We] are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom 3: 24). With these words St Paul expressed the fundamental content of his conversion, the new direction his life took as a result of his encounter with the Risen Christ.

Before his conversion, Paul had not been a man distant from God and from his Law. On the contrary, he had been observant, with an observance faithful to the point of fanaticism. In the light of the encounter with Christ, however, he understood that with this he had sought to build up himself and his own justice, and that with all this justice he had lived for himself.

He realized that a new approach in his life was absolutely essential. And we find this new approach expressed in his words: “The life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me” (Gal 2: 20).

Paul, therefore, no longer lives for himself, for his own justice. He lives for Christ and with Christ: in giving of himself, he is no longer seeking and building himself up. This is the new justice, the new orientation given to us by the Lord, given to us by faith.

**Before the Cross of Christ, the extreme expression of his self-giving, there is no one who can boast of himself, of his own self-made justice, made for himself! **Elsewhere, re-echoing Jeremiah, Paul explains this thought, writing, “Let him who boasts, boast of the Lord” (I Cor 1: 31 = Jer 9: 23-24ff.); or: “Far be it from me to glory except in the Cross of Our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world” (Gal 6: 14).

In reflecting on what justification means, not for actions but for faith, we thus come to the second component that defines the Christian identity described by St Paul in his own life.

continued…

 

[Bookcat]

Continued…

This Christian identity is composed of precisely two elements: this restraint from seeking oneself by oneself but instead receiving oneself from Christ and giving oneself with Christ, thereby participating personally in the life of Christ himself to the point of identifying with him and sharing both his death and his life. This is what Paul wrote in his Letter to the Romans: “[A]ll of us… were baptized into his death… we were buried therefore with him… we have been united with him… So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus” (Rom 6: 3, 4, 5, 11).

These last words themselves are symptomatic: for Paul, in fact, it was not enough to say that Christians are baptized or believers; for him,** it was just as important to say they are “in Christ Jesus” **(cf. also Rom 8: 1, 2, 39; 12: 5; 16: 3, 7, 10; I Cor 1: 2, 3 etc.).

At other times he inverted the words and wrote: “Christ is in us/you” (Rom 8: 10; II Cor 13: 5) or “in me” (Gal 2: 20).

This mutual compenetration between Christ and the Christian, characteristic of Paul’s teaching, completes his discourse on faith.

In fact, although faith unites us closely to Christ, it emphasizes the distinction between us and him; but according to Paul, Christian life also has an element that we might describe as “mystical”, since it entails an identification of ourselves with Christ and of Christ with us. In this sense, the Apostle even went so far as to describe our suffering as “the suffering of Christ” in us (II Cor 1: 5), so that we might “always [carry] in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies” (II Cor 4: 10).

We must fit all this into our daily lives by following the example of Paul, who always lived with this great spiritual range. Besides, faith must constantly express humility before God, indeed, adoration and praise.

Indeed, it is to him and his grace alone that we owe what we are as Christians. Since nothing and no one can replace him, it is necessary that we pay homage to nothing and no one else but him. No idol should pollute our spiritual universe or otherwise, instead of enjoying the freedom acquired, we will relapse into a humiliating form of slavery.

**Moreover, our radical belonging to Christ and the fact that “we are in him” must imbue in us an attitude of total trust and immense joy. **In short, we must indeed exclaim with St Paul: “If God is for us, who is against us?” (Rom 8: 31). And the reply is that nothing and no one “will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom 8: 39). Our Christian life, therefore, stands on the soundest and safest rock one can imagine. And from it we draw all our energy, precisely as the Apostle wrote: “I can do all things in him who strengthens me” (Phil 4: 13).

Therefore, let us face our life with its joys and sorrows supported by these great sentiments that Paul offers to us. By having an experience of them we will realize how true are the words the Apostle himself wrote: “I know whom I have believed, and I am sure that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me”; in other words, until the Day (II Tm 1: 12) of our definitive meeting with Christ the Judge, Saviour of the world and our Saviour.

---

There is very rich fare in this and the other audiences…

It is a gift…the grace of God…that we are in Christ! Let us live this in joy!

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
But is this faith automatic and does it come from God as the protestants allege or is it elective on the part of man who can exercise his free will and either accept or reject God’s grace.?

There are different senses in which Faith is used … even in Scripture…

I would not call it “automatic” but it is a gift from God …which man can often refuse…or accept. But even this acceptance is by the grace of God (though we are of course freely involved) “Without me you can do nothing” as Jesus said. No one can say “Jesus is Lord” but by the Holy Spirit (in the real sense…meaning the words…not as a parrot.

CCC 179 Faith is a supernatural gift from God. In order to believe, man needs the interior helps of the Holy Spirit.

I’m glad that you agree that it is a gift from God. But that is not the universal response from all protestantism. Some are so engrossed in the Sola Fide doctrine that it is automatic. These are the same people who espouse OSAS and who reject the idea that someone can ‘back slide’. To them these ‘backsliders’ were never saved. This highlights the problem with protestantism, there are so many denominarions with different doctrines and different interpretations of doctrines such as sola fide. With all these different interpretations how can anyone place any credibility in protestantism’s many claims of “being led by the Spirit”?

 

[Bookcat]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
But is this faith automatic and does it come from God as the protestants allege or is it elective on the part of man who can exercise his free will and either accept or reject God’s grace.?

answered this above…

 

[Bookcat]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer

I’m glad that you agree that it is a gift from God. But that is not the universal response from all protestantism.

I am a Catholic…

 

[inkaneer]

Originally Posted by inkaneer
Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer

I’m glad that you agree that it is a gift from God. But that is not the universal response from all protestantism.

I am a Catholic…

I don’t care. I was responding to Unacanta who lists himself as a protestant.

 

[Bookcat]

Originally Posted by inkaneer
Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer

I don’t care. I was responding to Unacanta who lists himself as a protestant.

My post was what you had responded to there…see #104 above…you were writing to me. hence my answer.

 

[inkaneer]

My post was what you had responded to there…see #104 above…you were writing to me. hence my answer.

You interjected yourself into my response to unacanta who is protestant. Your quoting of what a pope said or wrote on the matter means nothing to a protestant. They could care less what this or that pope said or wrote as they do not believe in church authority, let alone the pope. I am still replying to unacanta if unacanta wants to pursue the dialogue.

 

[Bookcat]

You interjected yourself into my response to unacanta who is protestant. Your quoting of what a pope said or wrote on the matter means nothing to a protestant. They could care less what this or that pope said or wrote as they do not believe in church authority, let alone the pope. I am still replying to unacanta if unacanta wants to pursue the dialogue.

You quoted my post and responded…not noteing his name or anything

i am only explaining why I said what i said.

And actually the quotes are very helpful for all to understand…

Pope Benedict XVI has a gift in putting these things into words. and the thread is not of course only read by 2 persons…

 

[unacanta]

As circumcision saved men in the Old Covenant, so baptism saves men in the New Covenant. The reason is simple: both rituals are rituals of covenant making. Covenant is the union between two persons, therefore, when one enters a covenant, one has entered a relationship. The relationship we enter is salvific because the making of covenant in baptism unites us to Christ (Rom. 6:3 and Gal.3:27).

Unless you enter the New Covenant, you are not saved, and the normative way to enter the New Covenant, which Jesus established in His Blood, is through baptism.

Here are some examples of Circumcision and what Paul taught concerning it:
Romans 2:25 (ESV)
25 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision.

Romans 2:28 (ESV)
28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical.

Romans 2:29 (ESV)
29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Romans 3:1 (ESV)
1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision?

Romans 4:11 (ESV)
11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well,

Now, since you apply circumcision=baptism, let us see what Paul would say concerning baptism, or at least in your thought pattern.

Romans 2:25
25 For baptism indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your baptism becomes unbaptism.

Romans 2:28
28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is baptism outward and physical.

Romans 2:29
29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and baptism is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Romans 3:1
1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of baptism?

Romans 4:11
11 He received the sign of baptism as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still unbaptized. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being baptized, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well,

Now you can see why Baptism does not save just as Circumcision does not save. Countless Jews across the ages placed their faith in Circumcision rather than their faith in God. Though in both instances, we are commanded to participate in ceremony, our salvation is not based upon it, but rather our faith in Christ, the Baptism Ceremony is an outward sign of an inward work by the Holy Spirit.

 

[unacanta]

Really? Isn’t saved by faith alone [sola fide] one of the five “sola’s” of the protestant “reformation” [revolt]? The five solas articulated five fundamental beliefs of the Protestant Reformation, pillars which the Reformers believed to be essentials of the Christian life and practice. They are:

1 Sola scriptura (“by Scripture alone”)
2 Sola fide (“by faith alone”)
3 Sola gratia (“by grace alone”)
4 Solus Christus or Solo Christo (“Christ alone” or “through Christ alone”)
5 Soli Deo gloria (“glory to God alone”)

You are correct, we do believe in the above, they are the core of Christianity. Each of these basic precepts are shared to a certain degree by the RCC also. The problem here is we are limited to the space allowed to address each of these issues. The topic at hand is “Rubutting a Baptist on Faith and Works”.

Since as Christians we both honor scripture and believe it is true, these are the following scriptures which you must deny if you think good works be they of the “Law” or moral code in general “help” in the act of salvation:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose
and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of
regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on hi
m that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done
any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election
might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant
according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works:
otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works,
then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

We see grace,faith and justification all addressed, all pointing to the fact Paul teaches all are necessary for salvation. Justification comes as a gift (Rom3:24), faith comes as (Eph2:8) as well as grace again, (Rom3:24)

Of course the rest of your post demands the human exercise faith as the response, the old argument “we must receive the gift” is ever present. What the RCC chooses to ignore is 1 Cor 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Unless God changes the heart first we are unable to exercise the saving faith which is given to us.

The rest of your post contains so much RCC rhetoric that it would take more space than is allowed by the editor here. You delve in predestination which to a certain extent is related, yet again, off topic.

The straw man arguments you present are red herrings which leads us away from the topic Faith and Works.

You ask where Calvin got his doctrine of predestination, it is of course off topic, but he received it from Luther who wrote much more about the subject, and of course Luther from Augustine the great Father of the 3rd Century.

Your last statement truly reveals your anthropocentric doctrine:

We either accept it [have faith] or not [no faith] and by doing so WE determine our salvation.

Again, can the unregenerate man discern spiritually and have faith to believe?
1 Cor 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Scripture is abundant in telling us no.

 

[unacanta]

Since you do not wish to take the scripture as it is written and at face value, I will say no more on the subject. When the Bible declares that we have an “earnest” of our inheritance, and that inheritance is stated to be eternal life, you have no right to deny what the scriptures teach.

You are a typical stubborn, know-it-all Protestant who will face Christ on the Judgment Day and explain to Him why you thought you were smarter than 2000 years of Christians with whom you disagree.

I have said my piece here.

Glad you piece has been said. On judgment day, I will not be judged because Jn5:24. The reason is because of the following:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose
and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of
regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on hi
m that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done
any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election
might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant
according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works:
otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works,
then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

I live under grace, not works.

 

[unacanta]

You interjected yourself into my response to unacanta who is protestant. Your quoting of what a pope said or wrote on the matter means nothing to a protestant. They could care less what this or that pope said or wrote as they do not believe in church authority, let alone the pope. I am still replying to unacanta if unacanta wants to pursue the dialogue.

Very disingenuous of you. We do respect the Fathers that have come before us and Church Authority (not necessarily RCC), we do hold both accountable to and all subordinate to Scripture. When a Pope or Church Authority strays from scripture then, of course it invalidates their teaching. By all means, follow the LDS, follow the JW or the other groups who call themselves Churches. So it is with the RCC, just because it is called a “Church Authority” does not mean we blindly follow it. Contrary to RCC teaching both the Authority and Pope are not infallible.

 

[Bookcat]

Not True. If we are saved by baptism, then point one (Jesus saves) would and could not be true. We are not saved by deeds done in righteousness by rather by His mercy

By this reasoning one is not justified by* faith *either…

It is JESUS CHRIST who justifies one in Faith and Baptism.

Baptism is not a deed done by me. It is received. No one can baptize himself. I can not baptize myself.

 

[inkaneer]

You are correct, we do believe in the above, they are the core of Christianity. Each of these basic precepts are shared to a certain degree by the RCC also. The problem here is we are limited to the space allowed to address each of these issues. The topic at hand is “Rubutting a Baptist on Faith and Works”.

I would disagree with that. The five solas were crafted by 16th century men to deny the authority of the church. So, for example, while we honor scripture as a source of Tradition, we do not claim it is the only source. Its the **“sola” ** part that we would object to.

Since as Christians we both honor scripture and believe it is true, these are the following scriptures which you must deny if you think good works be they of the “Law” or moral code in general “help” in the act of salvation:

We see grace,faith and justification all addressed, all pointing to the fact Paul teaches all are necessary for salvation. Justification comes as a gift (Rom3:24), faith comes as (Eph2:8) as well as grace again, (Rom3:24)

I deny none of thise scripture passages that you listed *. What I do deny is your interpretation of those scripture passages as I interpret them differently along with aother scripture passages that you did not include such as Faith without works is dead and we will be judged by our works. Now that puts you in a quandry because you have no authority to say that your interpretation is correct and mine is incorrect. It is because of this lack of authority in protestantism that gives rise to the 40,000+ denominations in less than 500 years. No protestant can tell another that their interpretation is wrong. All they can do is say this is what I believe. So you have protestants on both sides of an issue with each claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit. In addition you have no authority to say the Catholic Church is wrong in its interpretation either. It may not be the interpretation you like but that does not make it wrong. But I will tell you why the Catholic interpretation is correct and yours isn’t. And it is simple and scriptural. Jesus said He would establish a church and the forces of Hell would not prevail against it [Mt 16:18-19]. That church would be guided by the Holy Spirit [John 16:13] and have authority to bind and loose in heaven as well as on earth [Mt 16:19] and Jesus would remain with that church until the end of the age [Mt 28:19-20]. So we ask the question how could the forces of hell prevail against the church? The only way is if the forces of hell caused the church to deviate from its mission. What is the mission of the church? The mission is to teach the gospel to the nations [Mt 28:19-20]. **IF **the church taught false doctrine as you claim then hell prevails and scripture contains error and Jesus is a liar. But you might say, how do we know that church is the Catholic Church? Easy question. First, we note that the age has not ended so that Church established by Jesus is still here. The Catholic church claims to be that church and can prove it has the 2,000 year history back to Jesus and the Apostles to be that church. Second, not a single protestant denomination claims to have the necessary 2,000 year history necessary to be that church. Third, every protestant denomination claims to have a human being as its founder, not Jesus Christ. So did the Church established by Jesus Christ teach error as you claim?

Of course the rest of your post demands the human exercise faith as the response, the old argument “we must receive the gift” is ever present. What the RCC chooses to ignore is 1 Cor 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

First, nothing wrong with an old response provided it is the correct one. 2+2=5 is novel but it is not correct. 2+2=4 is old but is correct. Second, Catholics say the person is changed by God’s grace so you do not have this “natural man” accepting “the things of the Spirit of God”. God’s grace enables the man to “accept the things of the Spirit of God,” That is why WE say we are saved by GRACE.

CONTINUED…*

 

[inkaneer]

CONTINUING…

Unless God changes the heart first we are unable to exercise the saving faith which is given to us.

Exactly and we are changed by God’s grace. That is why we are saved by grace and why we can exercise faith as a work.

The rest of your post contains so much RCC rhetoric that it would take more space than is allowed by the editor here. You delve in predestination which to a certain extent is related, yet again, off topicThe straw man arguments you present are red herrings which leads us away from the topic Faith and Works.
You ask where Calvin got his doctrine of predestination, it is of course off topic, but he received it from Luther who wrote much more about the subject, and of course Luther from Augustine the great Father of the 3rd Century.Your last statement truly reveals your anthropocentric doctrine: …

Hey, I’m Catholic, not presbyterian. Don’t accuse me of Calvinism. And I didn’t ask where Calvin got his idea of predestination. The question I posed, " Can anyone ever wonder where Calvin got his doctrine of predestination?" was rhetorical. The answer I gave in the sentence before, “The protestant doctrine [sola fide] makes God into a capricious god who rewards those he chooses with saving faith and therefore salvation while punishing those he chooses by withholding saving faith and therefore damnation.” I can understand why you would try to blow this off as “RCC rhetoric” rather than try to refute it.

Again, can the unregenerate man discern spiritually and have faith to believe?

1 Cor 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
Scripture is abundant in telling us no.
​

Typical protestant rhetoric that denies the power of God’s grace to save man​

 

[kepha1]

You are correct, we do believe in the above, they are the core of Christianity. Each of these basic precepts are shared to a certain degree by the RCC also. The problem here is we are limited to the space allowed to address each of these issues. The topic at hand is “Rubutting a Baptist on Faith and Works”.

Since as Christians we both honor scripture and believe it is true, these are the following scriptures which you must deny if you think good works be they of the “Law” or moral code in general “help” in the act of salvation:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
*Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

*2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose
and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of
regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

This is what I call scriptural bulldozing. It’s impossible to answer within a 6000 character parameter.

Paul’s phrase for “works of the law” in the Greek is “ergon nomou” which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent (“hrvt ysm”) meaning “deeds of the law,” or Mosaic law.

“good works” in Greek is “ergois agathois” and is noticable in James 2:24. You are blending the terms as if they mean the same thing. But you are not alone, most Protestants use “works” as if it has only one meaning.

 

[kepha1]

Your quotes, Eph 2:9, 2Ti 1:9, Rom 9:11, Rom 11:6 are about the works of the law, not good works, and are irrelevant to the topic. That leaves Tit 3:5, Rom. 4:5, Rom 9:16, Rom 11:5.

It puzzles me why you would quote Titus 3:5, since you do not believe that “washing regeneration” refers to baptism. Or do you?

Rom. 4:5-6 – to him who does not work but believes, his faith is accounted to him as righteousness, like David, who was righteous apart from works. Here, Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us).

If they are done in faith (as James requires), we are in a system of grace (God rewards us). Hence, Paul accepts the works performed under God’s forbearance (grace) in Rom. 2:7,10,13 (see also Rom. 14:10-12; 1 Cor. 3:12-17; and 2 Corinthians 5:10) which lead to justification and eternal life. These verses have nothing to do with “faith alone.” Paul uses the word “alone” three times in Rom. 4:12,16,23, but never uses it with “faith.” Certainly, if he wanted to teach “faith alone,” he would have done so.

Therefore we should be in agreement that we are in a system of grace in accordance with your quotes of Rom 9:16 and Rom 11:5, which, again, has nothing to do with faith alone.

 

[kepha1]

Of course the rest of your post demands the human exercise faith as the response, the old argument “we must receive the gift” is ever present. What the RCC chooses to ignore is 1 Cor 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

The RCC cannot ignore what she wrote, preserved, compiled, and has proclaimed consistently. There is no need to be insulting. 1 Cor. 2 is about the “things of the Spirit of God” through St. Paul’s teaching authority.
1 And I,…
2 For I determined…
4 And my speech and my preaching … in demonstration of the Spirit and of power.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom…
7 But we speak the wisdom of God…, and on and on. We don’t ignore the power and the mystery of God being given to the Episcopate to teach, but you think God gives the individual bible reader the power to teach the things of God. This hasn’t worked very well.

Unless God changes the heart first we are unable to exercise the saving faith which is given to us.

Yes, that is predestination to grace, not predestination to glory. Catholics are taught both without mixing them up. see scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#salvation-III

You ask where Calvin got his doctrine of predestination, it is of course off topic, but he received it from Luther who wrote much more about the subject, and of course Luther from Augustine the great Father of the 3rd Century.

Augustine taught predestination because it is a Catholic teaching, properly understood. And he never taught “justification by faith alone.” Furthermore, Catholics and Lutherans have made a Joint Declaration on Justification.
19.We confess together that all persons depend completely on the saving grace of God for their salvation. The freedom they possess in relation to persons and the things of this world is no freedom in relation to salvation, for as sinners they stand under God’s judgment and are incapable of turning by themselves to God to seek deliverance, of meriting their justification before God, or of attaining salvation by their own abilities. Justification takes place solely by God’s grace. Because Catholics and Lutherans confess this together, it is true to say:
20.When Catholics say that persons “cooperate” in preparing for and accepting justification by consenting to God’s justifying action, they see such personal consent as itself an effect of grace, not as an action arising from innate human abilities.
21.According to Lutheran teaching, human beings are incapable of cooperating in their salvation, because as sinners they actively oppose God and his saving action. Lutherans do not deny that a person can reject the working of grace. When they emphasize that a person can only receive (mere passive) justification, they mean thereby to exclude any possibility of contributing to one’s own justification, but do not deny that believers are fully involved personally in their faith, which is effected by God’s Word. [cf. Sources for 4.1].

4.2 Justification as Forgiveness of Sins and Making Righteous
22.We confess together that God forgives sin by grace and at the same time frees human beings from sin’s enslaving power and imparts the gift of new life in Christ. When persons come by faith to share in Christ, God no longer imputes to them their sin and through the Holy Spirit effects in them an active love. These two aspects of God’s gracious action are not to be separated, for persons are by faith united with Christ, who in his person is our righteousness (1 Cor 1:30): both the forgiveness of sin and the saving presence of God himself. Because Catholics and Lutherans confess this together, it is true to say that:
23.When Lutherans emphasize that the righteousness of Christ is our righteousness, their intention is above all to insist that the sinner is granted righteousness before God in Christ through the declaration of forgiveness and that only in union with Christ is one’s life renewed. When they stress that God’s grace is forgiving love (“the favor of God”[12]), they do not thereby deny the renewal of the Christian’s life. They intend rather to express that justification remains free from human cooperation and is not dependent on the life-renewing effects of grace in human beings.
24.When Catholics emphasize the renewal of the interior person through the reception of grace imparted as a gift to the believer,[13] they wish to insist that God’s forgiving grace always brings with it a gift of new life, which in the Holy Spirit becomes effective in active love. They do not thereby deny that God’s gift of grace in justification remains independent of human cooperation. [cf. Sources for section 4.2].