Russia will be converted?

[Andrew_11]

EtienneGilson:

Russia is still bad so the consecration mustn’t have worked. Better try again, and again, and again.

The thing is, it was never consecrated. And why would you believe it is a myth? All the Popes since its occurance believed there was somthing to it.

 

[MrS]

bear06:

Uh, so you believe everything Sugenis says over the Vatican?!?!

Look closer… Sungenis compiles the facts, the data, and the verifiable references… and reports.

The Vatican, sometimes, says little or nothing, and lets you assume.

 

[Andrew_11]

MrS:

Look closer… Sungenis compiles the facts, the data, and the verifiable references… and reports.

The Vatican, sometimes, says little or nothing, and lets you assume.

This exactly what I have been trying to say.

 

[MrS]

bear06:

So you think this would be an on the spot, Russia is now Catholic, conversion? There are many good things happening in Russia in regards to the Catholic Church. For one thing, Mother Teresa and her nuns weren’t allowed in Russia for many years. She and her nuns went there in 1988. Mother Teresa was actually honored by Russia in 1992. Some Churches that were taken have been returned. Is it fully converted? Not by a long shot. Is it perfect? Not even close but it’s far better than it was.

And the Pope JPII, was not allowed to set foot in Russia. That’s real progress from a country that has less Catholics now then i 1917.

Perhaps this Pope, who took the name Benedict (last used by Benedict XV - during Fatima apparitions) will clear up this controversy. Perhaps.

 

[bones_IV]

BillP:

Russia has never really been atheist. Russia was very strongly Orthodox from 988 C.E. until the Communists offically discouraged religion in 1917-1918. Even during the Communist era the Church was a factor in the lives of many people. In 1987 between 40% and 50% of Russian babies were baptized in the Othodox Church and in 1988 60% of deceased Russians had Othodox funeral services.

To use C.E. is blasphemous. It’s B.C.

 

[trth_skr]

From Like’s Link to the Vatican:

What Mary asked for in the 1st & 2nd part of the secret:

I** shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart**, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world.

What she asked for in the 3rd secret:

" "

What JPII did in 1984 (from the same Vatican document) after reading the 3rd secret (and after the assasination attempt):

On 25 March 1984 in Saint Peter’s Square, while recalling the fiat uttered by Mary at the Annunciation, the Holy Father, in spiritual union with the Bishops of the world, who had been “convoked” beforehand, entrusted all men and women and all peoples to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, in terms which recalled the heartfelt words spoken in 1981:
“O Mother of all men and women, and of all peoples, you who know all their sufferings and their hopes, you who have a mother’s awareness of all the struggles between good and evil, between light and darkness, which afflict the modern world, accept the cry which we, moved by the Holy Spirit, address directly to your Heart. Embrace with the love of the Mother and Handmaid of the Lord, this human world of ours, which we entrust and consecrate to you, for we are full of concern for the earthly and eternal destiny of individuals and peoples.

In a special way we entrust and consecrate to you those individuals and nations which particularly need to be thus entrusted and consecrated…

No Russia. An indirect reference, perhaps intended to mean Russia, but without saying “Russia”.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

 

[bones_IV]

MrS:

And the Pope JPII, was not allowed to set foot in Russia. That’s real progress from a country that has less Catholics now then i 1917.

Perhaps this Pope, who took the name Benedict (last used by Benedict XV - during Fatima apparitions) will clear up this controversy. Perhaps.

Well, MrS you have to admit that at least we don’t have the threat of World War III and that there’s peace. Remember many of the communists leaders that were leaders when Communist Russia fell are still in power. Conversion of Russia has nothing to do with conversion of of a whole nation, but the conversion of the soul. Unfortunately I don’t see the nation of Russia converting during my lifetime nor in this century.

 

[MrS]

bones_IV:

Well, MrS you have to admit that at least we don’t have the threat of World War III and that there’s peace. Remember many of the communists leaders that were leaders when Communist Russia fell are still in power. Conversion of Russia has nothing to do with conversion of of a whole nation, but the conversion of the soul. Unfortunately I don’t see the nation of Russia converting during my lifetime nor in this century.

that is an interesting spin… What is it that Mary needed to say to make this work for you… " consecrate the soul of Russia…"??

 

[Mijoy2]

Maybe someone can enlighten me here. I just read Sungenis’s long essays on Pope John Paul II and other popes failure to consecrate Russia.

My question to anybody who seems to go along with line of thinking is:
If all the Pope had to do was to use the word “Russia” in his consecration address, what incentive would he have to NOT do so? Especially if he believed our Lady specifically desired this. Sungenis never seems to mention motive. He seems to suggest an almost deliberate disobedience. Why?, this goes against everything we know about our past Pope’ resolve to lead his flock. It is seemingly such a simple thing to do.

I assume I am misinformed, please enlighten me.

 

[MrS]

Mijoy2:

Maybe someone can enlighten me here. I just read Sungenis’s long essays on Pope John Paul II and other popes failure to consecrate Russia.

My question to anybody who seems to go along with line of thinking is:
If all the Pope had to do was to use the word “Russia” in his consecration address, what incentive would he have to NOT do so? Especially if he believed our Lady specifically desired this. Sungenis never seems to mention motive. He seems to suggest an almost deliberate disobedience. Why?, this goes against everything we know about our past Pope’ resolve to lead his flock. It is seemingly such a simple thing to do.

I assume I am misinformed, please enlighten me.

I know him well enough to know he would not presume to know the minds of the popes who did not consecrate.

Suppose, (my thoughts here) that the Pope, any Pope, specifically said Russia and Russia alone. And suppose you were Russian. Might you feel insulted that the Pope had to consecrate you alone. If you were a Catholic Russian perhaps you would welcome this. But if you were a political or non/anti-Catholic, you might have some form of anger…

While a pope may have had these thoughts - don’t stir up a hornets nest - our Lady had/has other thoughts.

Use the Nike phrase… Just Do It

 

[EtienneGilson]

bones_IV:

To use C.E. is blasphemous. It’s B.C.

C.E. is Common Era

B.C. is before Christ

I think you mean A.D. Anno Domini: year of our lord

But who really cares? Blasphemous is a rediculous statement. Modern scholars believe the number was off anyways and Christ was most like born from 6-4 B.C.E (before common era). Of, I guess I am a blasphemer.

And Mr. S…who cares? In the patristic era all the popes believed that the earth was created around 4500-5000 BCE. Just because the popes believe it doesn’t make it authoritative doctrine. Fatima, like Lourdes or Medjugoria is private revelation and not binding on the faithful.

Robert Sungenis’s argument is still circular.

 

[Mijoy2]

MrS:

I know him well enough to know he would not presume to know the minds of the popes who did not consecrate.

Suppose, (my thoughts here) that the Pope, any Pope, specifically said Russia and Russia alone. And suppose you were Russian. Might you feel insulted that the Pope had to consecrate you alone. If you were a Catholic Russian perhaps you would welcome this. But if you were a political or non/anti-Catholic, you might have some form of anger…

While a pope may have had these thoughts - don’t stir up a hornets nest - our Lady had/has other thoughts.

Use the Nike phrase… Just Do It

I appreciate you answer MrS. But one must take into account the potential gravity of the situation. Why your thought is suggesting that in an effort to spare Russia’s feelings, the popes put the entire world in jeopardy of catastrophy. This doesn’t add up.

 

[MrS]

Mijoy2:

I appreciate you answer MrS. But one must take into account the potential gravity of the situation. Why your thought is suggesting that in an effort to spare Russia’s feelings, the popes put the entire world in jeopardy of catastrophy. This doesn’t add up.

It sure doesn’t… and I am not aware of any other common denominator from the 4/5 popes and their actions

 

[StMarkEofE]

bones_IV:

To use C.E. is blasphemous. It’s B.C.

B.C.E. and C.E. may be an intended accomodation to our Jewish bretheren. These designations may not be as offensive as A.D. and B.C. I thing it was done to as a universal reference only.

 

[bones_IV]

StMarkEofE:

B.C.E. and C.E. may be an intended accomodation to our Jewish bretheren. These designations may not be as offensive as A.D. and B.C. I thing it was done to as a universal reference only.

How is using C.E. and B.C.E. being a “universal”? And pigs fly with the geese right? The arguement that C.E. and B.C.E. are universal is just rediculous. As an “accomodation”? Please. Even historians use A.D. and B.C. Your arguement holds no ground.

 

[bear06]

First of all, concecrating the word to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, is not concecrating Russian to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. And the Vatican’s interpretation on the third mystery deosnt really seem to have much to do with the assasination attempt. Read the mystery, it sounds like somthing alot bigger than a failed assasination plot. Prior to its release, the third mystery was generally regarded as being the worse. I would consider two world wars worse than an unsuccessful assasination attempt. I find it hard to believe that JPII would intentionally mislead us. ButI do not believe Russia was concecrated, and I do not believe the official interpretation of the third mystery is accurate.

Once again, according to you. Sr. Lucia says differently and nobody, including Sugenis, has offered more than conjecture to prove differently. Someone offered a typed vs. handwritten letter as proof of the hoax. That can’t even be proved not that it would actually matter.

 

[bones_IV]

MrS:

that is an interesting spin… What is it that Mary needed to say to make this work for you… " consecrate the soul of Russia…"??

Here’s one for you. “Nine years before that in 1929, Our Lady had asked for the collegial consecration of Russia to Her Immaculate Heart, promising that it would be a sign of Russia’s conversion. But when the consecration was not made at that time, Our Lord told Sr. Lucia that it would eventually be accomplished, but: ‘It will be too late; Russia will already have spread her errors throughout the world.’” (p. 381, Trial, Tribulation and Triumph).
"After the collegial consecration made by the Pope in 1984, Lucia said: “The consecration will have an effect, but it is too late.”

Martin’s edition of Lucia’s Memiors, Porto, 1973, page 465 (Quoted from Akita, p. 63).

 

[bear06]

Mijoy2:

Maybe someone can enlighten me here. I just read Sungenis’s long essays on Pope John Paul II and other popes failure to consecrate Russia.

My question to anybody who seems to go along with line of thinking is:
If all the Pope had to do was to use the word “Russia” in his consecration address, what incentive would he have to NOT do so? Especially if he believed our Lady specifically desired this. Sungenis never seems to mention motive. He seems to suggest an almost deliberate disobedience. Why?, this goes against everything we know about our past Pope’ resolve to lead his flock. It is seemingly such a simple thing to do.

I assume I am misinformed, please enlighten me.

Wow! I’m assuming you’re just talking about the link he gave. The whole thing is pretty long and took me a long time to get through. Not that it proved much. It was a lot of heaping on and conjecture.

 

[bear06]

ButI do not believe Russia was concecrated, and I do not believe the official interpretation of the third mystery is accurate

That’s about what I thought you’d say.

 

[tiny_smommy]

And this is why I no longer believe in Fatima. I don’t have to. I don’t care if several popes did, including the late great JPII. I think it was diabolical. Because of the FRUIT!

And here is a perfect example of the fruit of Fatima! Fighting, fighting and more fighting. I don’t believe that Our Lady would show 3 little children their friend in HELL, and I don’t believe that she would say that there are many souls in hell, because it is official Church doctrine that nobody knows who or the number of souls in hell, including the souls in heaven, of which Our Mother is a member. I don’t believe that Our Lady would want the Orthodox converted to Catholicism, especially the Catholicism of today! The Orthodox faithful are much more traditional, reverant, and pious than most Catholic churches, with their ridiculous “stummin’ for Jesus” services. I also don’t believe that Our Lady would tolerate all the pagan worship in her name going on the Fatima Shrine today. I’m going to tell you all why nobody consecrated Russia to the “Immaculate Heart” of Mary: Because it is not real! And it would destroy the faith of millions if they found out!

My faith used to rest on the fable of Fatima. But the more I looked into it, as an adult instead of a frightened little child, the more I realized how diabolical it is. She changed the rosary! Do you think that Our Lady would come to Portugal to change the rosary? I don’t. It is a wicked, wicked generation that looks for signs and wonders in the sky. As I have let Fatima go, I have prayed more and more directly to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and my salvation. I love Mary, the Mother of God. I ask her to pray for my family and give us comfort, but now I can honestly say that I direct the bulk of my prayers to Christ, and I think that’s what Our Mother would want.