Russian Orthodox Church allows confession by phone or Skype during covid-19 shutdown

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

They exist to recognize that Sacrament was not conferred validly. There can be invalid marriage even between partners who deeply love each other. In such case they should validate their marriage and continue with it.

Forgive me, I really struggle to understand how annulments are anything other than a legal fiction in order to allow divorce without appearing to allow divorce. Rather than saying that the sacrament was done invalidly, why not just allow divorce for the reason our Lord did, “in cases of sexual immorality.” It seems so much more straightforward and less like creating a problem with the sacrament.

Also, could you explain how the sacrament of marriage could be invalid, wouldn’t that be the fault of the priest who celebrates the sacrament rather than the husband and wife who participate?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

OrbisNonSufficit:

I am quite uncomfortable with Priests allowing anything because of convenience.

That’s good, because what you describe is not what the exercise of economia is about. Economia is a relaxing of a specific rule by the Priest (perhaps in consultation with his brother Priests, or even the Bishop depending on the issue at hand) for an individual with the goal of helping that person achieve salvation. It is never for sake of “convenience” nor is it a magic word a Priest can just speak to nullify anything. Even when an individual Bishop or the entire Synod of Bishops allows economia for certain issues, a Priest still has to apply that to an individual and their specific circumstances to help them achieve salvation.

Isaac14:

That’s good, because what you describe is not what the exercise of economia is about.

That’s a good thing. I understand that way economia works is not to allow Priests to do anything but still, are there any lines economia can’t cross?

I’ve wondered that myself. So let’s say that an Orthodox priest allows a penitent couple to use non-abortifacient contraception after they’ve had X number of children. Contraception is clearly against the divine law, not some canons or even immemorial tradition. But let’s say another penitent comes to the priest and says:

“Father, I work as a humble sharecropper. My landlord is an unjust man, and he will not allow me to keep enough of my crops to feed my family. We are not starving, but we are always hungry. My children are growing and their development will be stunted on the diet we are having to live on. They cry because their bellies are not full. I have no other way to get food. I can steal some additional crops and my landlord will never know. I do have to make an accounting to him of everything I have grown, and what I have kept for myself. Not only do I need to steal, but I need to lie to him, when I give him that accounting. I know stealing and lying are sins, but it is also a sin to stand back and watch my family be malnourished. May I have an economy, to allow me to steal and lie without fearing the Wrath of God?”

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

May I have an economy, to allow me to steal and lie without fearing the Wrath of God?”

No. Economia cannot contradict the Commandments. I think the only place that priests have to contend with the problem of contraception even being asked for is in the Western countries (thinking America, Canada, Australia etc) that are not majority Orthodox. In traditional Orthodox countries contraception would be seen as sinful, while abortion would be seen as mortal sin (although we wouldn’t normally use that term).

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

May I have an economy, to allow me to steal and lie without fearing the Wrath of God?”

No. Economia cannot contradict the Commandments. I think the only place that priests have to contend with the problem of contraception even being asked for is in the Western countries (thinking America, Canada, Australia etc) that are not majority Orthodox. In traditional Orthodox countries contraception would be seen as sinful, while abortion would be seen as mortal sin (although we wouldn’t normally use that term).

Then how are Orthodox priests permitted to use economia to allow it? It is a mortal sin of the flesh — essentially mutual self-pleasuring — that, at least in Western Catholic theology, falls under the Sixth Commandment of “thou shalt not commit adultery”, along with all other sexual sins.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

No. Economia cannot contradict the Commandments.

That kind of clears my concern about there being no boundaries. Now all that is to be agreed upon is what really is and is not part of commandments (contraception being prime example) and economia is basically what dispensation is to Western Catholics.

Then how are Orthodox priests permitted to use economia to allow it? It is a mortal sin of the flesh — essentially mutual self-pleasuring — that, at least in Western Catholic theology, falls under the Sixth Commandment of “thou shalt not commit adultery”, along with all other sexual sins.

I don’t think it’s just Western Catholic Theology. Eastern Catholics in Slovakia share the same view and as PilgrimMichelangelo has noted, traditionally seen as sinful even in Orthodox circles.

I am quite familiar with dispensations. I have received dispensations from my Priest couple times (mostly for not abstaining from meat during Fridays during the year because in our country it is still mandated) but only when I had a good reason. I was also made aware of the fact that if my reason for dispensation ceases, then dispensation ceases too. So if I was dispensed from fasting because there was important occasion but that occasion ceased, dispensation no longer applies either. Though dispensation itself seems to apply to mostly disciplinary law and also promises and vows (for example people who get divorced are dispensed from vow they made during marriage to always remain by each other’s side, but that does not make them able to contract new marriage). Priests can get dispensed to marry (happens mostly if they leave Priesthood for one reason or another), Deacons get similar dispensation to marry if they have small children and so on. But I don’t think there is anything that can dispense us from being held accountable for our sins, which from our point of view is just what economia does with contraception and/or remarriage.

 

[Isaac14]

There is stuff that’s fine to not define. I simply have problems of not defining boundaries for humans who are clearly all fallible.

Isn’t it contradictory to say its okay to not define some stuff, but yet requiring defined boundaries for fallible humans? What “stuff” doesn’t apply to fallible humans and thus doesn’t need definition?

I am grateful for our discussion but at this point I feel like I am being more annoying than learning anything, so I’ll end it here. I apologize if I offended you or anyone else.

No need to apologize - we’re all here to learn.

My point was largely that argument that “it is exercise of economia” doesn’t make something right by itself.

And no one would rightly argue that it does. Exercises of economia really can’t be used to draw a general conclusion about what is or isn’t allowed because they represent a departure from the norm for either a specific circumstance (e.g. COVID-19 restrictions) or for a specific person or persons.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Isn’t it contradictory to say its okay to not define some stuff, but yet requiring defined boundaries for fallible humans? What “stuff” doesn’t apply to fallible humans and thus doesn’t need definition?

For example “at exactly which moment is our Lord truly present in Eucharist in the Eastern Divine Liturgy?”

I find that obnoxious because while we say that during Mass, our Lord is truly present in Eucharist when Priest says “this IS my body” but then Sacrament for being valid also requires Priest to say words “this IS my blood”. If Priest stops halfway through (exercising his free will) then does that unmake Eucharist into bread? Also word “is” means that it already is something, not necessarily that it just became something. Technically speaking Latins do not exactly have precise definition either (it is quite shorter time frame than in the East but that’s not significant).

Then there are many questions… did our Lady really die? Did She not? What’s the Truth? How exactly does Trinity work? … many questions that we don’t need to define- at least not yet. Perhaps one day some dangerous heresy will force Church to define those things by grace of Holy Spirit. But since that did not come yet, I take it that Church does not need their definition. However this does not concern fallible humans and exercise of their great gift and service that is there for good of the souls but might lead to their demise. Priests have more responsibility than we do, Bishops even more than Priests. In other words Church ought to define boundaries for that for good of the souls. Church limits exercise of power and service that was granted to Her and through that grant Priests are ordained with it.

And no one would rightly argue that it does.

I see. Thank you. I guess we are in agreement about this then

 

[Isaac14]

May I have an economy, to allow me to steal and lie without fearing the Wrath of God?”

From my understanding, people don’t really ask for an “economy.” It’s really a matter of how the Priest addresses the specific situation in question. In the relaxing of rules, the Priest is accountable to his Bishop and to God.

I suspect the Priest in your hypothetical situation would rather work with this person to try and help them figure out how to feed their family without resorting to stealing or lying in the first place. Anything beyond that would be conjecture, and if the Priest allowed anything more, would be between him and the person (and Bishop/God per above). My duty is to focus on my own sins and pray for the salvation of those around me; if I’m worrying about the “economy” granted someone else, I’m doing things wrong.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

From my understanding, people don’t really ask for an “economy.” It’s really a matter of how the Priest addresses the specific situation in question. In the relaxing of rules, the Priest is accountable to his Bishop and to God.

How does this work in marriage? Funnily enough what popped in my head was a scenario where someone is divorced and Priest is like “hey why don’t you marry that woman over there?” On a serious note how does Priest recognize that? Someone pursuing relationship when they are divorced is sinful but only to the point when Priest grants economy for that situation? Or is it not a sin and one can pursue relationships until Priest says they can’t grant the economy?

My duty is to focus on my own sins and pray for the salvation of those around me; if I’m worrying about the “economy” granted someone else, I’m doing things wrong.

Well it is always a good thing to support other people- warn them against sins, preach the Gospel, help them… despite us being imperfect. Of course our main focus is us and we ought to not be proud about helping others but it is still a nice thing to do if we do it honestly.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

No. Economia cannot contradict the Commandments. I think the only place that priests have to contend with the problem of contraception even being asked for is in the Western countries (thinking America, Canada, Australia etc) that are not majority Orthodox. In traditional Orthodox countries contraception would be seen as sinful

So in Russia, Greece, Serbia, Romania, Ukraine, and so on, people do not say “the Orthodox Church is wrong, we are in modern times now, that’s just old celibate bishops talking, there is nothing wrong with contraception”?

I would have to question that.

PilgrimMichelangelo:

No. Economia cannot contradict the Commandments.

That kind of clears my concern about there being no boundaries. Now all that is to be agreed upon is what really is and is not part of commandments (contraception being prime example) and economia is basically what dispensation is to Western Catholics.

If that’s all economia is, fine and dandy, keeping in mind that the Orthodox might not, in all cases, draw a bright line between something being of divine law, and something else being a purely ecclesiastical canon, immemorial practice, or what have you.

For example “at exactly which moment is our Lord truly present in Eucharist in the Eastern Divine Liturgy?”

I find that obnoxious because while we say that during Mass, our Lord is truly present in Eucharist when Priest says “this IS my body” but then Sacrament for being valid also requires Priest to say words “this IS my blood”. If Priest stops halfway through (exercising his free will) then does that unmake Eucharist into bread?

No. Unless there is something deficient in my understanding of Eucharistic theology, the “bread” would remain the Body of Christ, and some way, somehow, the Mass would have to be continued, as in the hypothetical situation where the priest consecrates the Body, and then drops dead on the spot.

I asked in these forums not too long ago whether the bread would remain bread if the priest held it up, said “…this is my bo-…”, and then dropped dead before uttering the last syllable. According to my understanding, there would be no consecration, and the bread would remain bread.

did our Lady really die? Did She not? What’s the Truth?

We don’t know. There is every indication that she did (something about an empty tomb), but it is not dogma one way or the other. That’s just something we can’t know for sure.

How exactly does Trinity work?

The Triune God has not chosen to reveal that to us. Actually, it seems as though the Orthodox have a more elaborated explanation, something about energies, something the West doesn’t spend a lot of time thinking about. We have to be content to leave that as a mystery.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

keeping in mind that the Orthodox might not, in all cases, draw a bright line between something being of divine law, and something else being a purely ecclesiastical canon, immemorial practice, or what have you.

Essentially that is the problem. Fact economia can’t dispense anyone from commandments should then mean that it can’t allow contraception. Depends on what do Orthodox view as commandments then I guess, because in theory it sounds a lot like Divine Law. I think that there is major difference what we view as part of Divine Law/Commandment, not necessary that there is no distinction.

No. Unless there is something deficient in my understanding of Eucharistic theology, the “bread” would remain the Body of Christ, and some way, somehow, the Mass would have to be continued, as in the hypothetical situation where the priest consecrates the Body, and then drops dead on the spot.

I see. I heard about one Priest once using non-transparent flasks for wine. They mistook wine and water and when Priest tasted the Communion Cup he found out that it was pure water. So he had to re-do entire consecration over. Not sure if “entire” really means “entire” here though.

The Triune God has not chosen to reveal that to us.

We don’t know.

Exactly my points

 

[Isaac14]

On a serious note how does Priest recognize that?

Do you question your Priest on how he handles other peoples’ confessions?

I’ve said before and I’ll repeat that how a Priest handles the situations of other people is no one else’s business.

While I certainly want to be an encouragement to those around me, it is dangerous to my soul to get caught up in how someone else deals with their sins with their priest.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I’ve said before and I’ll repeat that how a Priest handles the situations of other people is no one else’s business.

Well it is business of his superiors in the very least. Anyway if there is theoretical impossibility of handling such situation it should not be imposed unto Priests. I am not asking about specific person, I am asking about “what if” situation and that is something we have commonly asked our Priest even in classes. Perhaps it’s just local thing, but Priests would always answer that.

it is dangerous to my soul to get caught up in how someone else deals with their sins with their priest.

Well ideally you are able to help them and provide guidance. If you see they are in danger you warn them. If they refuse that warning or help, it’s now up to them and it isn’t wise to bother them about it again. Perhaps they have good reason. But initial warning is something I would appreciate, and I feel like many would too.

 

[Isaac14]

Well ideally you are able to help them and provide guidance. If you see they are in danger you warn them. If they refuse that warning or help, it’s now up to them and it isn’t wise to bother them about it again. Perhaps they have good reason. But initial warning is something I would appreciate, and I feel like many would too.

If you read what I said, I said very clearly it is not my place to get between someone and the Priest in dealing with their sins. It is not my place to worry about how the Priest deals with what they confess.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

If you read what I said, I said very clearly it is not my place to get between someone and the Priest in dealing with their sins. It is not my place to worry about how the Priest deals with what they confess.

Sure. My questions aren’t about real people but hypotethical ones. I understand that economia exists for very certain cases and therefore it is hard to generalize that, but in the end general process exists. Either it is a sin to pursue relationship if one is married but divorced, or it is not. In first case one needs economia before they actually pursue relationship (which makes it not only hard to judge such case for a Priest but also one would have to ask every time interests change or something about other person comes to light), or there is no need for economia at all. Another point is that if indeed one pursues relationship and then Priest refuses to grant that permission, it is already quite hard for person (and by extension makes pursuing such relationship sinful from the begining). So these are my views on general situation about remarriage through economia. Contraception is completely different in this sense.

 

[AlNg]

May I have an economy, to allow me to steal and lie without fearing the Wrath of God?”

It is also going to be who you steal from. For example, if it is a bakery which throws out a lot of food which cannot be sold, and it does not allow anyone to take it, and you and your family are starving to death, then I don’t see why it would not be OK to steal that excess bakery food which is going to be thrown into the trash anyway. So yes, i think it is OK to steal food from the bakery in such a case and it would not be a sin.

So let’s say that an Orthodox priest allows a penitent couple to use non-abortifacient contraception after they’ve had X number of children. Contraception is clearly against the divine law,

First of all, since contraception is against Divine Law and is an offense against God, why don’t the clergy of the true Church give frequent homilies about this since this mortal sin is so common among Roman Catholics according to all of the polls and articles commenting on the subject. Secondly, how does contraception differ in intent from NFP, when NFP is used to prevent children. You are using calendars, records, thermometers and other devices to control when to have relations in order to prevent having children. Your intent is the prevention of children coming into the world, but at the same time you want the liberty of having relations with your spouse. Thirdly, there is the question of being a good steward and protector of the environment. Everyone knows the modern day pressures on the water supply, mercury and other contaminants in the fish, poisons in our food chain, air pollution, etc. At a conservative church I attended, there was a family with 14 children and one more on the way. Now if every family had 14 children, would that create more pressure on the environment? Already we see problems with the climate and with unknown diseases such as covid-19 causing hundreds of thousands of deaths. Is that a good thing and if presented with two evils, should we always choose the lesser of two evils?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I don’t see why it would not be OK to steal that excess bakery food which is going to be thrown into the trash anyway. So yes, i think it is OK to steal food from the bakery in such a case and it would not be a sin.

If they throw it out and you take it, it’s hardly stealing. If you steal while you aren’t starving it is a theft. I guess that depends on circumstances but in reality one shouldn’t take unnecessary stuff from others just because they judge it to be a good thing.

First of all, since contraception is against Divine Law and is an offense against God, why don’t the clergy of the true Church give frequent homilies about this since this mortal sin is so common among Roman Catholics

They do, to my knowledge. I knew this when I wasn’t even Christian. Fact Church members have problem with certain sin means nothing- Church is there to exalt people not to only let the Holy Ones in.

Secondly, how does contraception differ in intent from NFP, when NFP is used to prevent children.

Because abstaining from act is different than deforming it.

Thirdly, there is the question of being a good steward and protector of the environment.

Environment matters infinitely less than human life does. Infinitely. Our Lord did not create environment in His image, He did get incarnated as environment neither was He crucified for environment.

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

So in Russia, Greece, Serbia, Romania, Ukraine, and so on, people do not say “the Orthodox Church is wrong, we are in modern times now, that’s just old celibate bishops talking, there is nothing wrong with contraception”?

I would have to question that.

I could be wrong, but my guess is that pious, serious Orthodox Christians usually consult with their spiritual father about such things if they have a problem with the Church’s teaching on spousal relations. At least in the convertodox parish that I am part of, that seems to be the norm. Most Orthodox are in holy obedience to a spiritual father, and if they do not have a spiritual father they have a designated father confessor who usually hears their confession and gives them pastoral advice. This may or may not be the parish priest
where they attend.

Here is a brief summary of economia vs akribia as used in the Orthodox Church:

http://www.ceceurope.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/CSCEconomia.pdf

 

[AlNg]

Because abstaining from act is different than deforming it.

With NFP used to prevent birth, the intent is the same as with contraception, to prevent birth.
Anyway, what we see is the Catholic clergy and the Catholic schools giving the podium to people such as the Catholic Nancy Pelosi. Do you know that Nancy Pelosi favors no restrictions on late term abortion? The child is already born except that the umbilical cord has not been cut? Then they put a knife through the brain of the child to murder it?

 

[AlNg]

If they throw it out and you take it

I said that they are going to throw it out but have not yet done so. So it is still their property.