Russian Orthodox Church allows confession by phone or Skype during covid-19 shutdown

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

Depends on what do Orthodox view as commandments then I guess, because in theory it sounds a lot like Divine Law. I think that there is major difference what we view as part of Divine Law/Commandment, not necessary that there is no distinction.

So here is something pertinent:

“The Fathers of this council [the Council in Trullo in 691 a.d.; rejected by West but accepted by East] were well inspired by the ancient terminology. While dealing with the illicit marriages of certain clerics, they remarked that the Church of Rome keeps “the rule of exactitude (ton thc akribeiac…kanona),” while those of Constantinople follow the rules “of humanity and of compassion (tjn thc filanvrjpiac kai sympaveiac).”[115]”

Note in brackets, mine, for clarification.

This ancient Council which became the basis for Eastern Canon Law, expresses well the two differing attitudes taken by East and West. In the Western Roman Church akribia [exactness] was kept more rigorously, while in the East economia [dispensation] became the norm.

Here is a link to the full article I pulled this from:

http://www.pravmir.com/article_409.html

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Anyway, what we see is the Catholic clergy and the Catholic schools giving the podium to people such as the Catholic Nancy Pelosi.

Martin Luther once had discussion at Catholic University too. Arius spoke at Council of Nicea. There might be some anti-Catholic views but as long as those people are not presenting them (or if they are, it’s a debate) then it’s ok. If they are, then it’s a problem.

I said that they are going to throw it out but have not yet done so. So it is still their property.

Then it’s a theft. Morally wrong until they throw it out. What if they don’t want to throw it out? What if they want to use it? You can only be sure if they throw it out. Even if they tell you they would, they could be lying for some reason. You are bound to respect their property.

Here is a brief summary of economia vs akribia as used in the Orthodox Church:

Here is a link to the full article I pulled this from:

Thank you very much.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

It is also going to be who you steal from. For example, if it is a bakery which throws out a lot of food which cannot be sold, and it does not allow anyone to take it, and you and your family are starving to death, then I don’t see why it would not be OK to steal that excess bakery food which is going to be thrown into the trash anyway. So yes, i think it is OK to steal food from the bakery in such a case and it would not be a sin.

Upon reflection, I have thought there might be two things that would come into play here. First, there is such a thing as “occult compensation” — Jone speaks of it. In a nutshell, under certain carefully prescribed circumstances, you may take what is due to you, if it is being unjustly withheld by another. Secondly, some say that lying is not an absolute moral evil. Jeffrey Mirus covers this in an article on his website Catholic Culture., and what I know of Dr Mirus, he is rock-solid orthodox in the Faith. This would cover the dilemma “can you lie about Jews being hidden in your house if the Nazis come looking for them?”, and is a whole another critter from saying “I will lie to keep out of trouble or to get something I really, really want”.

Your example of the bakery that has more bread than it can ever sell, throws away vast quantities, yet refuses to give it to anyone, actually makes some sense. I deeply admire grocers and restaurants who give away past-peak food to charities and homeless shelters. I knew of a very thrifty hotelier who would go to the fast-food restaurant across the street from his fleabag motel just as they were closing, and buy their leftover sandwiches for his living companion (cousin) and himself for some nominal amount, a few pennies per sandwich — that was their dinner. It ended in a sad way — they were elderly, the motel was well-known in town as being an eyesore, they died within a day or two of each other, it was front-page news, and the coroner said that they died of problems caused by extremely high cholesterol from eating nothing but those sandwiches.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

So let’s say that an Orthodox priest allows a penitent couple to use non-abortifacient contraception after they’ve had X number of children. Contraception is clearly against the divine law,

First of all, since contraception is against Divine Law and is an offense against God, why don’t the clergy of the true Church give frequent homilies about this since this mortal sin is so common among Roman Catholics according to all of the polls and articles commenting on the subject.

I wish they would, however, as you note, they don’t. Silence on the subject does not affect the mortal sinfulness of it one bit. Paul VI asked the clergy to teach their faithful in Humanae vitae. However, the summer of 1968 was not the best time to “push” people on something they didn’t want to hear anyway — it was a very turbulent time, not unlike the way the summer of this year is shaping up to be. The teaching was not well-received, to say the least — a lot of people had their hopes up that the teaching would be changed, and it wasn’t. The encyclical was basically dead on arrival. And 52 years later, it has pretty much stayed that way. The best thing you can say, is that we now have highly reliable methods of NFP, so the Church’s teaching on contraception is not as hard to live by, as it was 50 years ago. The Church teaches one thing, and a very large number of people (the most recent US poll says 92 percent, some people don’t like polls, but I’m not one of them) think and do another. The silence and relative soft-pedaling of the teaching is not an economy. What it signifies, I have my thoughts, but this is one time I will be pleased to let others speculate instead of me.

 

[AlNg]

You are bound to respect their property.

Even when you and your family is starving to death and you know that they will be throwing these excess bakeries goods out to the trash? That seems somewhat harsh because it is certain that they have no use for this food. Why is it right to let your family and children starve to death ?

 

[AlNg]

Martin Luther once had discussion at Catholic University too.

There is no comparison between Martin Luther who recommended several reforms which actually are in place today and with Nancy Pelosi. It is a question of outright murder of a child who is outside of the womb except for the umbilical cord. Martin Luther never advocated such. In fact, several Catholic clergyman have said that Martin Luther was a very religious man and did not the Vatican even publish a stamp in his memory?
I see a huge difference between advocating that indulgences not be sold and between advocating the murder of a child by late term abortion.

 

[twf]

Yes, I would say that in many cases Latin law, at least in its current state, does indeed define the bare minimum to achieve salvation… while much more beyond the law is actually expected for the spiritually mature. On a very basic, simplistic, and generalized level, I think an Eastern spiritual Father helps the Christian determine how much of “the law” he can actually handle, while a Latin confessor or spiritual director helps the Christian determine how much “beyond the law” he can handle.

 

[dochawk]

As a Catholic I’d follow inerrant unchanging practice of Rome over Russian innovation any day.

Unchanging? Were that the case, resolving the schism would be trivial . . .

uncomfortable with Priests allowing anything because of convenience.

How did that enter a discussion about economia?

Not that there is anything wrong with name of our Lord’s fatherly figure on Earth but choice of name “Joseph” in reference to Gulag is somewhat ironic

Just grabbing a good christian name.

 

[babochka]

In first case one needs economia before they actually pursue relationship (which makes it not only hard to judge such case for a Priest but also one would have to ask every time interests change or something about other person comes to light), or there is no need for economia at all. Another point is that if indeed one pursues relationship and then Priest refuses to grant that permission, it is already quite hard for person (and by extension makes pursuing such relationship sinful from the begining).

In the specific case of divorce and remarriage, it is not the priest who makes the call. The person must pursue an ecclesiastical divorce, which is granted by the bishop. A person who has a civil divorce, but has not been granted a divorce is the Church, is not permitted to receive Communion. (I know at least one case in which the wife was granted economia to receive by her confessor, pending the outcome of her ecclesiastical divorce.) So generally speaking, a person could not pursue the relationship until the ecclesiastical divorce, which is itself economia, is granted by the bishop. I suppose such economia could be granted to an individual by a priest, who has judged the situation to be clear-cut, while the divorce case is pending. That really is not so different than the guidance given by Catholic priests from time to time. It is a rare person who would approach a priest ahead of time. More common would be a situation in which a person already finds himself in a tangled mess and wants to fix it with the least damage possible. This is where a priest’s pastoral judgement comes into play.

Here is some information on ecclesiastical divorce from one North American jurisdiction.

http://www.annunciation-nyc.org/our-parish/sacraments/divorce

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Unchanging? Were that the case, resolving the schism would be trivial . . .

It quite is. Anyhow I don’t think Rome’s practice of Confession was ever an issue between Churches.

Just grabbing a good christian name.

It is amazing name… not even Stalin could take that away. I just find that coincidence ironic

How did that enter a discussion about economia?

Well I wasn’t quite aware what are even limitations on economia. Later on, PilgrimMichelangelo actually clarified that economia can not go against commandments or undo any part of them. That cleared my confusion.

So generally speaking, a person could not pursue The relationship until the ecclesiastical divorce, which is itself economia, is granted by the bishop.

So divorce automatically makes one eligible for another marriage? In Catholicism this works similarly with regards to divorce afaik, but since remarriage is not allowed that’s where that stops I guess. I was under impression that Orthodox Church needs to allow divorce and then also allow remarriage separately. Thanks for the link

 

[Diaconia]

Nope.

Deacon Christopher

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Even when you and your family is starving to death

That was not an example. If you are starving to death then it isn’t a sin. Example specifically said they feel hungry but aren’t starving

There is no comparison between Martin Luther and Nancy Pelosi

They both divert from teaching of the Church. That was the comparison.

Martin Luther who recommended several reforms which actually are in place today

They are?

Martin Luther debated at Catholic University not against indulgences only. He clearly showed his view that Ecumenical Councils are not infallible (and many more things). Debate was hardly about indulgences in the end. I suppose you meant Theses… but I wasn’t talking about these.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Nope.

Was that response to me Father Deacon? If so, to what part?

 

[Diaconia]

No, responding to the original poster, @AlNg.

The penitent and confessor need to be physically in the same location.

Like the same room. Close enough to see and hear each other.

I am very surprised to hear of this Orthodox exception: Typically you need to be close enough for his epitrachelion to be draped over your head and cover you with Christ’s mercy.

Deacon Christopher

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

Like the same room. Close enough to see and hear each other.

I am very surprised to hear of this Orthodox exception: Typically you need to be close enough for his epitrachelion to be draped over your head and cover you with Christ’s mercy.

Fr. Dn.:

If you read the earlier posts we have explained how this is allowed within Orthodoxy. Many bishops, even outside of ROCOR allow their priests to hear Confessions via phone. The difference is how absolution is given, sometimes over the phone, sometimes via local parish priest. It is all up to the discretion of the local bishop. This is not an uncommon practice and has been going on long before the Wuhan Virus scare, in many jurisdictions.

 

[dochawk]

It quite is. Anyhow I don’t think Rome’s practice of Confession was ever an issue between Churches.

I don’t see how anyone can possibly make the general statement that Catholic praxis is unchanging. You may find specific examples, but certainly not the general case.

 

[LilyM]

Thom18:

It is invalid,

I doubt it. I think you are wrong and the confession is valid. I have seen phones in confessional booths for the hard of hearing and when the penitent and the priest use the phone, the confession is still valid and does it not remain valid even if the penitent is six feet and 1/4 inch away from the priest.

But priests and penitent are still in the same place. Physical proximity is important.

Would anyone suggest that viewing a televosed or internet-streamed Mass or Divine Liturgy has the same effect as being present in person? Of course not, never mind that it would be ever so much more convenient for all concerned. This is because physical presence is important.

 

[LilyM]

OrbisNonSufficit:

You are bound to respect their property.

Even when you and your family is starving to death and you know that they will be throwing these excess bakeries goods out to the trash? That seems somewhat harsh because it is certain that they have no use for this food. Why is it right to let your family and children starve to death ?

Simple. If.it is.still in their posession you must ASK THEM if they are going to throw it out and if you can have it. If they say no, you must wait until they ACTUALLY throw it out, at which point it is fair game and not (without their permission) before.

 

[AlNg]

They both divert from teaching of the Church. That was the comparison.

There is no comparison between Martin Luther and Nancy Pelosi. The Vatican has issued a stamp featuring Martin Luther:

Vatican issues stamp featuring Martin Luther for Reformation anniversary | Crux

i doubt that the Vatican would issue a stamp honoring someone like Nancy Pelosi who favors legislation allowing the murder of a child by late term abortion.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I don’t see how anyone can possibly make the general statement that Catholic praxis is unchanging.

You are right. I will correct myself. Essence of Sacrament of Penance as declared by Catholic Church has remained same since at least Great Schism (Early Church Confessions were apparently really, really different in aspect but so were communities). If someone tries to do Confessions over phone it is deviation from that essence of the praxis. It might be correct, it might be just but it is some innovation. Rome has not innovated Confessions that way unless there is something I do not know, in which case please correct me.

i doubt that the Vatican would issue a stamp honoring someone like Nancy Pelosi who favors legislation allowing the murder of a child by late term abortion.

well they did issue a stamp featuring Martin Luther…