Russian patriarch visits Ukraine

[Volodymyr]

CONFLICT PATRIARCH IN KYIV

Great problem with Filaret and his clergy is that they are defended by para-military semi-fascist group called Ukrainia National Assemblia and National Self-Defense Organization. UNA-USDO people were intimidating those gathetered to welcome Patriarch Kirill, and had to find defense from elderlymembers of Kazak organizations. These are supporters of Filaret at procession of all priests of Filaret’s churches. Certainly this group problably has supporters also among GrekoCatolics - although I am not sure that they are not too far fascist for Catolic clergy. These paramilitary have been fighting with Moslems in Chechnia and Azerbiajan against Christian Ossetians and Armenians - only because these Osettians and Armenians are having friendly relations with Rossia, which they consider great terrible thing.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/7/72/Ua_unso.gif

 

[Diak]

Up to now the posts have been centered on religious celebrations; I would like to point out Volodymyr has now elevated accusations of fascist involvement which have no substantiation and he gives no credible citations. Furthermore he has widened the accusations to implicitly include the Catholics; I will state quite vociferously that no hierarch of either the UGCC or the UOC-KP has given any blessing to these sorts of outfits.

Since we are talking about “fascist” actions, here is some actual hard footage of the MP thugs in action. This is a common occurrance to UOC-KP, UGCC, and UAOC faithful in the Odesa region:
youtube.com/watch?v=Mn5XvXfMJt0

The assailant is none other than Igor Markov, a prominent “spokesman” for the UOC-MP in the Odessa region. He was questioned about five minutes by pro-Russian police and released.

And the latest statement from +Filaret as reported on RISU:

UOC-KP Head Wants Patriarch Kirill to See Millions of Believers Striving for
Unified National Church in Ukraine

29.07.2009, [KYIV] - On July 28, 2009, the primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox
Church - Kyivan Patriarchate (UOC-KP), Patriarch Filaret, published “A Message
for the Occasion of the Anniversary of the Kyivan Rus Baptism,” in which he
called to pray for Ukraine, for its peace and prosperity, for its spiritual
growth, and to overcome economic hardships.

A separate topic in the message is the issue of the Ukrainian Orthodoxy
division: “Among many trials our people are undergoing, there is one issue that
bothers the Orthodox believers most of all - the division of the Ukrainian
Church. This is our bleeding wound. Only a stony heart and a merciless soul do
not strive to overcome it,” says Patriarch Filaret in his message.

The hierarch emphasizes that the UOC-KP more than once appealed to the bishops
of the Moscow Patriarchate and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Moscow
Patriarchate, urging them to a fruitful dialogue and to search for church unity.
However, according to the words of the primate of UOC-KP, all these addresses
were either not heard or general answers were given to them.

At the same time, Patriarch Filaret points out that UOC-KP does not lose hope:
“We are knocking on the door of their heart, believing that not our weakness but
God’s strength will open it. Only a unified National Orthodox Ukrainian Church,
autocephalous in its organization and recognized by other churches as equal, is
the way through which the church division will be overcome. This unified Church
is the aim of our work and longing of our hearts. And we firmly believe that
God, who granted us state independence, will also unite the Orthodox in Ukraine
in the unified National Church.”

In response to the wish of Patriarch Kirill of Moscow to see Ukraine and its
church life, UOC-KP head said: “We wish him to really open his eyes and see our
Church, to see millions of our believers and believers of other Ukrainian
churches who want our nation to have a unified and autocephalous Ukrainian
Church. That is why we must pray so that the Lord will open His eyes to see
Ukrainian Orthodoxy as it is.”

 

[Diak]

I suppose then, it is your opinion that the Pope’s position on this title and office is irrelevant?

Michael, you know better than to say something as uninformed as that. First of all, I think it is rather up to you to demonstrate where the Pope has directed the UGCC by edict NOT to commemorate His Beatitude as Patriarch, to officially suppress votes and actions by the Synod, to suppress any Church wishing to regain a greater realization of *sui iuris *identity, any documentation indicating an official suprression of the movement of reestablishment of the Patriarchate since the time of Patriarch +Josyp with the Pope’s signature, or actually provide a document reference that clearly states “The Pope’s Position on this title and office” in a way that removes, without any trace of doubt, the legitimacy of the UGCC commemorating His Beatitude as +Patriarch. Good luck because it doesn’t exist.

A commemoration of His Beatitude as Patriarch has been done right in front of the late Holy Father on his visit to Ukraine and the current Pontiff in Rome; no letter of correction or discliplinary action was taken in either case. If it were such a terrible crisis, he would be obliged to act to defend the integrity of the universal Church. Communion is not synonomous with slavery.

I understand it is convenient for many Orthodox that we just be a Roman Church with different vestments to point at and justify their own existence. If the whole sui iuris business is serious and meaningful, then we have to act as such as a particular Catholic Church. The Pope’s lack of direct involvement in a particular Church, showing there is no crisis of morals and dogma, is a far better indication from an Eastern Christian perspective

Secondly,

Is the Ukrainian Greek Catholic church on a drive toward autocephaly in the same manner as Metropolitan Filaret?

Again, you know better; there are Patriarchal particular Catholic Churches. One would think that the largest Particular Church both in numbers and the most developed in terms of governance and particularity (including producing its own catechetical, spiritual, and liturgical works) is certainly the most deserving of Patriarchal governance. I realize some polemicists don’t want this to happen. St. Peter Mohyla wanted this for his own Kyivan Orthodox Church as well.

I would surmise we could take many of the comments against the KP autocephaly, replace Bulgaria for the KP, and the EP for the MP, and some would still be very similar. But I would posit the KP has even a stronger claim than the Bulgarian Church; in this case Kyiv was the mother of the Muscovite Church historically and not vice-versa as in the case of Bulgaria and Constantinople.

But Bulgaria was also declared “without grace” by the EP; seemingly sometime after World War II the grace was switched back on.

 

[Hesychios]

Hello Father Deacon,

I suppose then, it is your opinion that the Pope’s position on this title and office is irrelevant?

I’ll take that as a yes.

Is the Ukrainian Greek Catholic church on a drive toward autocephaly in the same manner as Metropolitan Filaret?

I’ll take that as a no.

 

[KyivAndrew]

"Kyiv Patriarch Filaret refuted the words of head of the Russian Orthodox Church, Patriarch Kirill about existence of united Local Orthodox church in Ukraine.

According to an UNIAN correspondent, Filaret said this delivering a speech during the festive mass near the monument to Saint Volodymyr at Volodymyrska Hill on the occasion of baptism of Rus-Ukraine Day.

“Speaking about united local church in Ukraine, Kirill meant Russian Orthodox Church, but Ukraine has to have its own Local Orthodox church”, Filaret noted.

”Everything based on untruth, will be destroyed sooner or later because the God’s patience may give out”, the Patriarch noted.

unian.net/eng/news/news-328934.html

Amen! God Bless!

 

[KyivAndrew]

Just to show how a Ukrainian patriot and builder of Churches from over 300 years ago can still be pronounced “anathema” to this very day in the Russian Orthodox Church because he rebelled against an oppressive Russian tsar in a strictly political revolt. 300 years ago - this had nothing to do with the Orthodox Church – and yet because he dared be a Ukrainian political leader, the Russian Orthodox Church still keeps an ungodly anathema on him TO THIS DAY!! Which kind of again just buttresses the argument that the Russian Orthodox Church (ROC) is more interested in the temporal, Caesar’s work of imperialism over Ukraine, as opposed to actually sitting down with the leader of the majority of Ukrainian Orthodox just for a meeting and moving forward in Christian brotherhood to do God’s work in Ukraine. The Ukrainian Patriarch Filaret was willing to talk in Christian brotherliness with the Moscow Patriarch, the Moscow Patriarch ignored this polite invitation, as he also complained about Ukraine’s current President Yushchenko (and the Moscow Patriarch is in Yushchenko’s country, not Russia, as a guest.)

Even HH John Paul II wished to visit Russia but was refused by the Moscow Patriarch. Our current Pope would like to visit Russia and hold Christian talks tete-a-tete with the Moscow Patriarch. Still Moscow refuses. The President of Ukraine extends his hand, the head of Ukraine’s Orthodox Church (Kyiv) extends his hand in friendship, the Popes extend their in hands in Christian friendship. The Russian Orthodox Church’s response: NO TALKING. Wow, this will get us far towards being brothers and sisters in Christ. I mean the Moscow Patriarch is not even sure on meeting the head Greek Patriarch. So Moscow continues to play the 3rd Rome bit to the hilt, IMHO.

Here’s the link to what can earn a man anathema in the Russian Orthodox Church, a church which still has no problems cursing a Ukrainian patriot and church builder from over 300 years ago.

unian.net/eng/news/news-325863.html

 

[KyivAndrew]

A very good piece on the complexities of the Russian Church’s involvement in Ukraine by a Professor of History in Ithaca, New York. In the professor’s words:

"Patriarch Kirill opposes “political orthodoxy,” yet the Russian Orthodox Church closely collaborates with Russian leaders Vladimir Putin and Dmitry Medvedev in spreading a Russian nationalist (some say proto-fascist) message in Russia and the “near abroad.”

"Putin, Medvedev and Kirill [Moscow Patriarch], a powerful Russian troika, engage in joint political and religious commemorations of the White General Anton Denikin, supporting and echoing Denikin’s denigration of Ukrainians, the political canonization into sainthood of Tsar Nicholas II, his wife and five children, in support of a reactionary Russian imperial ideological foundation of Autocracy, Orthodoxy and Russian Nationality with its legacy of chauvinistic policies and pogroms.

Many other examples bring to question whether Patriarch Kirill’s visit is a political mission to re-engage a reactionary past of a revived vision of Russian imperial control over Ukraine.

The Russian Orthodox Church remains silent on many recent and current human rights abuses by the Russian state, such as the suspicious deaths of journalists critical of the government, the assault upon the human rights group Memorial, the censorship and political control of history, among many others."

kyivpost.com/opinion/op_ed/46190

 

[Diak]

I’ll take that as a yes.

You will take it any way that suits your own justification of position, as past posts have revealed. As I said, you know better in both cases, and I realize our existence and development are not convenient for many Orthodox.

 

[Diak]

So much for the hollow accusations from the MP that the UOC-KP and the UGCC are engaging in “ultra-nationalism”. It’s quite clear who the “ultra-nationalists” are.

 

[Diak]

Michael, as I said you know better and didn’t even bother to address my answer. As you have once again proven, you will take want you want in the way you want. I realize our existence and development are uncomfortable to some.

 

[Hesychios]

I realize our existence and development are uncomfortable to some.

The existence of the UGCC is no problem for me, I should think it is a big problem for father Kovpak.

The UGCC has been a substantial means for Catholics to learn about the beliefs and practices of Holy Orthodoxy in a ‘safe’ nonthreatening environment. It has been a conduit for many who have been received by Holy Orthodoxy and a substantial source for vocations in the Orthodox church, from what I have seen in Chicago.

I believe that the UGCC can have an important part to play in the reconciliation of the Orthodox communion and the Catholic church, once it gains a chance to sit at the table and address the issues on it’s own terms and speak with it’s own voice. The best way for that is to gain autocephaly for itself, the same self-determination it asserted for itself when it joined with Rome four hundred years ago, and quickly forgot.

I am not Russian Orthodox, nor Greek Orthodox nor Ukrainian Orthodox. I watch these developments with fascination. I fail to see why you should be so supportive over the claims of autocephaly for the Ukrainian Orthodox, but not have a similar zeal for the Ukrainian Catholics.

I believe that the UGCC can be a catalyst for real change, it can teach us all something. Perhaps later …

 

[malphono]

 

[Volodymyr]

youtube.com/watch?v=Mn5XvXfMJt0

The assailant is none other than Igor Markov, a prominent “spokesman” for the UOC-MP in the Odessa region. He was questioned about five minutes by pro-Russian police and released.

:

Dear friend:

Your hatred of Rossia is clouding your vision. The Odessan policia are Ukrainians who like 100% of the population of Ukraina speak Russian, and also speak Ukrainian like now perhaps 100% of population at least somewhat.

But those are supporting this video have written comments - and if you speak Ukrainian you should be ashamed of such support )

Jaroslav - one of those supporting your point of view - has written:

Kill Jews and Moskali (Moskvotes) in Ukraina!

Western Ukraina has long had many fascist sympathatic persons - such comments reinforce this idea. Rossia and Ukraina and Belarus are brother countries - we have common history, religion. Kyiv is the mother of all cities of Rus’ - in all now 3 countries.

Also Ivan Mazepa is only of historical interest to anyone, except polemicists. The name for most people means the historical opera by Pjetr Ilich Chaikovskij or a character in the poem of Poltava battle by Aleksandr Pushkin. If a person is non musical or non literary, most do not know Ivan Mazepa at all.

The great bitter feeling shown at this site toward all things Rossian and Orthodox (unless happen to be Ukrainian nationalists) is very unfortuante. Orthodox church is not to be blamed for high abortion rate in both Ukraina and Rossia steming from Communist days, not to be blamed for political disputes between Medvedev and Iushenko. Please, take rational perspective.

Also as in old Soviet days I see the hands of Sensor - Mr. Diak is saying I have accused the Ukrainian Assembly, Self defense association of being fascist but my remarks have now been removed. But this video from Odessa with fascist comments at bottom is left.

Enough!

 

[Aramis]

I fail to see why you should be so supportive over the claims of autocephaly for the Ukrainian Orthodox, but not have a similar zeal for the Ukrainian Catholics.

They are already their own jurisdiction; you are confusing recognition as a patriarchal church with autocephaly. The only differences of practical note are in how the patriarch is selected, how new eparchies are erected, and Where his beattitude stands in processions.

There is no Autocephaly for Catholics; Peter’s heir is the visible head of the Catholic Communion, acting in loco Christus. The head of the various component churches of the Communion head their own churches with varying degrees of autonomy, but Major Archiepiscopal churches and Patriarchal Churches already have more autonomy that Orthodox Autonomous churches.

In a sense, autocephaly within a Catholic context is schism. The SSPV are autocephalus. So are the PNCC and the Utrecht Union. They geve up union with the Visible head of the Church for total Self-heading.

 

[KyivAndrew]

But those are supporting this video have written comments - and if you speak Ukrainian you should be ashamed of such support )

Jaroslav - one of those supporting your point of view - has written:

Kill Jews and Moskali (Moskvotes) in Ukraina!!

Volodymyr, first of all, you owe Diak a sincere apology before you should post here anymore. You call yourself a Christian, you should therefore ask his forgiveness as Father Deacon never once even remotely said “kill Jews or Moskali” and SHAME ON YOU VOLODYMYR for putting hate speech in his mouth. How utterly grotesque! These are the types of antics used by K.G.B. heroes like Vladimir Putin, whom you surely must adore, but they are not Christian. Pereposysia, Volodymyr, po khrystianskomu!

Most of the quotes under the youtube video showing Ukrainians being beaten to a pulp by the Russian mob (apparently a Russian Orthodox lay leader too doing the beating) are actually in the Russian language and praise the beaters. It is interesting of you Volodymyr that you should find one extreme post (on youtube no less) in the minority and then post it, and then have the fortitude to ascribe those sentiments to Diak. Unbelievable!

Most of the comments are just like the first one and in Russian: “Beat these Banderivsti, these ___lickers of the Americans and NATO. I only acknowledge Ukrainians who are friends with Russia”. (Beautiful sentiments by Skydolly). I take it you approve of this do you Volodymyr?

Next beautiful Russian comment: “Beat these fascists. Yushchenko [democratically elected president of Ukraine]…You are next!” This was written by one Aviant and is the 2nd quote under the clip. Wonderful Christian sentiment that, considering Yushchenko unlike Mother Russia’s Putin was democratically elected and actually was almost killed in a poisoning attempt orchestrated by Putin’s Russia. Do you believe Volodymyr that your (what am I saying how can he be your president if he’s Ukrainian and not Russian) “president” should be beaten to a pulp just like Aviant said. Maybe trying to kill him by poison was not enough Volodymyr?

 

[Hesychios]

They are already their own jurisdiction; you are confusing recognition as a patriarchal church with autocephaly.

Not really. I understand the difference.

There is no Autocephaly for Catholics

In a sense, autocephaly within a Catholic context is schism.

I realize this. I suggest that this is the problem that requires addressing if there is ever to be reconciliation.

What is the point of an Eastern Catholic supporting an autocephalous Patriarchate in Orthodoxy? I can understand why I might, Orthodox might take either side in the matter (I am not Ukrainian, nor Russian), but why would a member of the UGCC?

The UOC-MP is in the same relationship to Moscow as the UGCC is to Rome.

So it’s OK to support an independent patriarchate in another’s church, but not in one’s own? Somehow it’s bad when Moscow does it but OK when Rome does it?

Why not support autocephaly in both churches and encourage them both to dialog?

Wouldn’t that make a great example for the rest of us? :clapping:
*
Is the Zoghby Initiative dead here? *

 

[KyivAndrew]

Western Ukraina has long had many fascist sympathatic persons

My parents were born in Western Ukraine, my grandparents, my great grandparents. On my dad’s side the family goes way back to Halych town, the original capital city of Western Ukraine during King Danylo’s reign, when Moscow was just a swampy little town.

In defence of my background, the only fascist I see here posting are those with Russian fascist sympathies such as yourself. I have provided links earlier in this thread by leading professors and commentators in the Western world calling the Moscow Patriarch, Putin, and Medvedev as a new Russian fascist troika. This actually is not necessarily a minority view. Award-winning journalists like Anne Applebaum who wrote about the Gulag have similar thoughts on modern Russia as a Chekist police state. Just today on Euronews, democracy protesters in Moscow! were beaten by OMON forces and sent to jail. This would not happen in Kyiv thank God!

Between 1939-1941, Western Ukrainians were brutally treated by Stalin and his regime during the first Soviet occupation. My dad recalls the late Bishop Khomyshyn (the 2nd most powerful bishop in Ukrainian Catholicism) having to stand up in front of class in Stanyslaviv after the G.P.U. (Secret Police) made religious teaching illegal and saying: “Boys I am leaving you now. May God watch over you in your lives.” This was done in Western Ukraine even before German Nazis had even attacked this area. Do you know Volodymyr who Hitler’s best friend during this time was? It was not western Ukrainians, it was Moscow and Stalin during their Pact together which divided Europe. Learn some history! Incidentally, Khomyshyn, in later refusing to recant his faith, was later butchered by the K.G.B. and died without renouncing his faith. Now that is a brave Ukrainian Christian martyr, may God rest his soul!

My mom’s family had to hide from house to house during this Soviet occupation because they were on the Soviets’ arrest list for simply being Ukrainian intelligentsia. Every night tvoyi uliublenni Russki the Soviet Secret Police would roam around the country in chorni vorony (black ravens) looking for prey to be pushed in the back of one of these black police vans to be taken, family and all, to a K.G.B. prison, never to return. All this while Moscow drank toasts to Hitler, and Hitler drank toasts to Stalin. I think Hitler possibly even at this time called Soviet Communism simply Russian Fascism. (And that’s what Stalin’s daughter, Svetlyana Allilluyeva, said all along, that for Stalin, communism was simply Great Russian Nationalism, Stalin’s daughter).

When the Nazis attacked Ukraine in 1941, many, if not most, western Ukrainian boys and girls were taken by force to work in the Reich in labour camps. This happened to my father who disappeared a young boy in an S.S. train with hundreds of other west Ukrainians to labour in inhuman conditions. My grandfather searched months for him through the villages of western Ukraine. 5 days in a cattle car until East Prussia. No food. No water. Then beatings. Then night-blindness. He escaped before the end of the war.

On my mom’s side the Gestapo simply arrested my grandfather. This is typical of MOST Western Ukrainian families during World War Two - unbearable torture at the hands of the Nazis and Communists - but one never heard this story because of the success of Soviet propaganda in describing Western Ukrainians as fascists because Western Ukrainians remained faithful Christians to a great deal in secret in the atheist Soviet state. And I am so glad to see that Soviet propaganda to this day is being advertised by you Volodymyr, on a Catholic site. Dezinformatsiya, ochen kharasho, nyet Volodymyr?

 

[KyivAndrew]

Also Ivan Mazepa is only of historical interest to anyone, except polemicists. The name for most people means the historical opera by Pjetr Ilich Chaikovskij or a character in the poem of Poltava battle by Aleksandr Pushkin. If a person is non musical or non literary, most do not know Ivan Mazepa at all.

Now, with all due respect, this is absolutely, unbelievably fatuous. All major historians of Ukraine put Mazepa in the top 5 or top 10 Ukrainians in history in their writings if one is to judge by length. Among knowledgeable Ukrainians (not Russians, not Little Russians or malorossy), Hetman Ivan Mazepa is one of the most powerful figures in Ukrainian history, not a musical character. As one who took Ukrainian history in University under a professor who later went on to write the very popular Ukraine: A History, I can assure you that Mazepa played a gigantic role in Ukrainian history, so powerful that to this day the Russian Orthodox Church pronounces anathema on him. Volodymyr, have you ever read Subtelny, Magocsi, Serhy Yekelchyk, Sysyn, Serhiy Plokhy? Volodymyr, what exactly have you read about Ukrainian history? What texts? I’m afraid it’s probably only the old Soviet-approved textbooks isn’t it? I hope not, but what have you studied in Ukrainian history? I’ll gladly even share with you my university theses and essays on Ukrainian history if you wish.

For someone to say this about Mazepa as Volodymyr has done shows that either the poster is 1) completely ignorant of Ukrainian history; 2) hates Ukrainian history; or 3) believes there is no Ukrainian history but only Russian history. Take your pick, and I am not sure which category Volodymyr would qualify for.

To say this about Mazepa is to say to the American that Abraham Lincoln is only of interest to polemicists or writers. Unbelievable!

In the old days, when the Muslim Crimean Khanate and its hordes would ride into the steppes of Ukraine and kidnap Ukrainian Christian children en masse into slavery in Istanbul, the Turks would browbeat these young Ukrainian boys out of Christianity into Islam. These Ukrainian boys became the Janissaries in English (Yanychary in Ukrainian). They bought the Muslim faith word for word and were brainwashed into being the most powerful legions of the Khan’s army. This was the curse of Ukraine.

After the Soviet Union fell apart, many expected that from under the rubble would emerge a perhaps moral, maybe Christian, incorrupt democratic society. It hasn’t, certainly not in Russia. Those who had family there believed and prayed for the end of communism, but it did not take long for Ukrainians in particular to realize how much damage, educational, psychological, had been done by forced atheism, Russification, and a regime of lies on the populace. The Germans and those occupied by them only had to live 12 years under Nazism at most. In Ukraine for the most part, it was 70 years of Communism which included a Moscow-orchestrated genocidal famine in Ukraine which killed 5 to 7 million. Those people who never recovered from that period are called by some as the modern-day Janissaries, Yanychary. Moskovski Yanychary! They serve Moscow even though the Red Tsar and his Red Regime have long ago died. Where does one draw the line with a brainwashed Janissary who, through no fault of his own, only understands Ukraine as Moscow has taught him to understand Ukraine?

And I am no enemy of Russia or the Russian people. I pray for people like Gary Kasparov and Kasyanov or Javlinsky who want to see a true, moral, free, prosperous Russia, democratic, and part of Europe and not run by a K.G.B. clique. This is where the future of a proud Russia lies. In that hope, NOT in the K.G.B.

I pray for the Russian people. And I pray for our yanychary who do not know really when they do wrong, because that is all they have ever understood. God Bless All!

 

[Aramis]

Not really. I understand the difference. I realize this. I suggest that this is the problem that requires addressing if there is ever to be reconciliation.

What is the point of an Eastern Catholic supporting an autocephalous Patriarchate in Orthodoxy? I can understand why I might, Orthodox might take either side in the matter (I am not Ukrainian, nor Russian), but why would a member of the UGCC?

The UOC-MP is in the same relationship to Moscow as the UGCC is to Rome.

So it’s OK to support an independent patriarchate in another’s church, but not in one’s own? Somehow it’s bad when Moscow does it but OK when Rome does it?

Why not support autocephaly in both churches and encourage them both to dialog?

Wouldn’t that make a great example for the rest of us? :clapping:
*
Is the Zoghby Initiative dead here? *

Because, within the context of the Russian Church, autonomy does not exist. Nor does true sui iuris status. Within the Russian system, as opposed to the overall EO mentality, Autonomy is further from Sui Iuris than is Autocephaly. Further still, an Autocephalous church may dialog on its own with the Catholic church; an autonomous Orthodox church may not.

Not to mention, if Russia acknowledges UOC autocephaly, even if only by recognizing Filaret’s UOC as AN Autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox church, and retains a “Russian Orthodox Church of the Ukraine” under the Patriarchal Omophor, it will heal a major part of the schism.

Truly, the Catholic Ideal is for Moscow to come in to Communion with Rome, and the Orthodox in the Ukraine to do likewise, each without coercion, either separately or jointly.

That goal will require a lot of Prayers, tho’. Not to mention a fuller understanding of the petrine role on both sides.

 

[Rkman]

I fail to see why you should be so supportive over the claims of autocephaly for the Ukrainian Orthodox, but not have a similar zeal for the Ukrainian Catholics.

Isn’t that obvious, they want to divide Orthodox church as much as possible so they can easier convert them one by one to Catholicism.
‘Divide and conquer’-maxim