Russian patriarch visits Ukraine

[KyivAndrew]

Isn’t that obvious, they want to divide Orthodox church as much as possible so they can easier convert them one by one to Catholicism.
‘Divide and conquer’-maxim

No, IMHO, that’s not true. My grandfather was totally Ukrainian Orthodox and the other three grand parents Ukrainian Catholic. There are MANY such families in North America and, YES, we do get along actually. Hence, why the commingling of religious interests between Ukrainian Orthodox (Kyiv) or Autocephalous and Ukrainian Catholics. Remarkably, we consider each other Christian brothers and sisters and celebrate certain “praznyks” together.

It is only when a foreign imperial Church subservient to Tsar, then Commissar, now Cheka Czar, starts pushing political buttons (NO democracy from West, No Catholics, No NATO, support for Putin’s Chekist authoritarianism) that our Christian brotherhood gets unneccessarily pushed around by Moscow’s political demands. And they do have demands. In the last Presidential Election in Ukraine, candidate Yanukovych, a former convicted rapist from Donetsk and a criminal oligarch had the full active backing of the Russian Orthodox Church (MP). Yanukovych, it seems was involved in the poisoning of the current President Yushchenko, and is generally considered a reprehensible reptile yet here he is in the current Moscow Patriarch’s visit at the head of the crowd.

The clownishness of thugs like Yanukovych is that he actually travelled to Ukr. Catholicism’s centre in Lviv during the elections and, unbelievably, set up with the secret police a Machiavellian fake homicide to have been done by some mythic Western Ukrainian nationalist (which to yanychary means simply fascists) so as to take away from Yushchenko’s sympathy vote from the real poisoning. But a tv channel caught the comedy in full. Yanukovych was hit by an egg and then lied pretending to be shot and then proceeded to give a painful diatribe against nationalism from the hospital televized. Pathetic. And this is the main political support for the Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine. Fitting. Putin in Russia. Yanukovych in Ukraine. Here’s the clip. Watch for the egg and delayed fall. youtube.com/watch?v=fP0vWkqOQT8

And neither the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (KP) or the Ukrainian Catholic Church got involved in propagating one presidential candidate in Ukraine’s election, which the Russian Church had no problems with, because it is after all Ceasar’s work and the ROC has served the Caesar of Moscow on way too many an occasion. The ROC blatantly entered into active campaigning for Yanukovych at Moscow’s behest which earned the ROC the name of a “Russian Fifth Column” in an independent Ukraine. Yanukovych’s fake attack was an act, and pathetic, and scary because Yanukovych tried to rig those elections and pulled lies to insult a whole region of Ukraine. So Yanukovych the criminal is the highest political supporter of the ROC in Ukraine, and the ROC in Moscow obviously "listens’ to what Chekist Colonel Putin says. That is not a Ukrainian Church. I don’t even want to get into how much the ROC is turning into a tool of Putin’s state and his policies in the near-abroad do not seem to be mainly about propagating Christ but Holy, Mother Russia. This is all foreign and scary to Ukrainian Orthodox (KP) and Catholics who have no such arguments here in the diaspora where the ROC and its imperial mission thankfully is not strong enough to cause trouble.

O.K. I have personally known and befriended several higher-ups in this whole question. Prominent Ukrainian Orthodox I have personally met: Father Romaniuk, who was arrested by the K.G.B. in Soviet times for leading an underground Ukrainian Orthodox Church. Sentenced by Moscow to the Gulag, kicked out finally, got a parish here in North America, then back to Ukraine when it became free to become head of its one true Orthodox Church. I met him just at the airport in North America as the Soviets released him as I was involved with a student movement to help Ukraine’s many political prisoners. I saw it as my Christian duty, Catholic or Orthodox; I never really though about the ROC as a kid as much but once I started noticing what the ROC was doing, I knew Ukr. Catholics and Orthodox (KP) had a real foe unfortunately in equal measure.

I have met with the late Ukrainian Orthodox Patriarch Mstsyslav who tried to establish a Ukrainian Autocephalous Church during World War Two, but was arrested by the Nazis for trying. He had no problems handing out invitations to praznyky or talking to Catholics, totally unlike the Russian Orthodox. In 1990 he at his age of 92 was elected in absentia as the first Patriarch of Kyiv and all Ukraine of the UAOC. He was enthroned as Patriarch Mstyslav I, on November 6, 1990 in St. Sophia Cathedral in Kyiv.

I take away only high thoughts of these Orthodox brethren as brothers in Christ. Again, Dialogue was always open Catholic/Orthodox and even with Constantinople; it is only when the ROC and their fantasies of a 3rd Rome get involved that everything turns bitter. Filaret of the KP would like to meet the Moscow Patriarch. Bang. Refused. Is this how Christ responded to those who asked to speak to him in peace: NO!! I am from Holy Moscow. How dare you deign to speak to me!

I met and befriended the head of the Ukrainian Catholic underground under the Soviets, Y. Terelya. Some people can withstand 20 years of beatings, political tortures, forced psychiatric institution for being ill with “anti-Sovietism”; some cannot. Terelya kept his faith but I recall with agony him lying on a bed in his home in Toronto (where Gorbachev exiled him to) and hyperventilating and having a mild heart attack which he often got he said because of all the years of torture and forced psychotropic pills “The Russians” gave him. His words. If you want to argue with a martyr go ahead.

That is it. Please do not go looking for Catholic bogeymen where none exist. Paranoia doesn’t help. If Ukrainian and Roman Catholics can speak peacably together with the Ukrainian Orthodox (KP), then the problem lies with the one party who will not even feign to go so low as to talk to these Christians. God Bless.

 

[Hesychios]

Because, within the context of the Russian Church, autonomy does not exist. Nor does true sui iuris status. Within the Russian system, as opposed to the overall EO mentality, Autonomy is further from Sui Iuris than is Autocephaly.

We already know that the UOC-KP is (for all practical purposes) autocephalous. It can, and does speak for itself, even when no one else wants to listen.

So, why not an autocephalous Ukrainian Greek Catholic church to match? Is that not the model for future reconciliation between the Orthodox and the Catholics?

Can we not see two equal churches knit themselves together? Can we not have them share communion and concelebrate?

Or is that just not possible, from your perspective?

Further still, an Autocephalous church may dialog on its own with the Catholic church; an autonomous Orthodox church may not.

An Autocephalous church may dialog on its own with the Orthodox church; an autonomous Catholic church may not. :juggle:

…if Russia acknowledges UOC autocephaly, even if only by recognizing Filaret’s UOC as AN Autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox church, and retains a “Russian Orthodox Church of the Ukraine” under the Patriarchal Omophor, it will heal a major part of the schism.

True. I don’t have a problem with that.

I think Metropolitan Filaret is damaged goods however, he needs to retire for the sake of harmony and let his synod choose another.

Otherwise I do not mind if the Ukrainians have a Patriarchal synod (it might be a problem for the MP, but not for me), I don’t mind if the Polish Orthodox church names a Patriarch either. And I don’t mind whether or not some Orthodox synod decides to drop the title. Cyprus never had a Patriarch and that synod is autocephalic.

But what does a Catholic care whether the Ukrainian Orthodox have a Patriarch and an independent synod? Is this just another “poke Moscow in the eye” kind of thing? I hope not, that seems rather childish.

If we are going to advocate something, there needs to be a legitimate reason behind it. What good thing will an independent Synod for the Orthodox in Ukraine do for the Catholics in Ukraine? Serve as a model for them perhaps?

Truly, the Catholic Ideal is for Moscow to come in to Communion with Rome, and the Orthodox in the Ukraine to do likewise, each without coercion, either separately or jointly.

Usually when I encounter the term “come in to Communion with Rome” it means something different to Catholics than it does to Orthodox.

For Orthodox, the See at Rome can be another Autocephalous church with which we share communion. What does “come in to Communion with Rome” mean to you?

What did it mean to Archbishop Elias Zoghby of blessed memory?

That goal will require a lot of Prayers, tho’. Not to mention a fuller understanding of the petrine role on both sides.

Prayers, of course.

And a clarification of the role of the bishop of Rome, as well as a clarification of the role of the bishop of Kyiv.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Well thankfully, slowly but surely, Archbishop Sofroniy of Cherkasy and Kaniv, Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) knows more about Ukraine than poster Volodymyr does with his anti-Ukrainian, pro-Russian rants which come as the Archbishop states in: “A situation … that completely surprises me: in our church (and not only church) circles there is a fear of things Ukrainian. We lack the feeling of our own dignity, adequate assessment of ourselves, of our people, which during all of our history suffered so much that it is even hard to imagine.”

This from an Archbishop of Volodymyr’s own Church perfectly describes the mind-set of the Moskovskyi Yanychar, the Maloros Khokhol, who does not understand what Ukraine’s history is, who completely misses the leadership and humanity of Ukrainians like Mazepa, and who suffers from fear of things Ukrainian as Volodymyr seems to. That Archbishop of the UOC (MP) actually speaks for a true Ukraine and not some nutty ramblings of a maloros (Little Russian - there is actually a term for this national inferiority complex - Malorosiystvo). The Archbishop understands this sickness of malorosiystvo as displayed here at length by Volodymyr : the term “Little Russian” is used to describe such people because they are ashamed as Ukrainians in the face of Russia, since this is what Moscow tells them.

I would argue that that Archbishop Sofroniy is no spiteful yanychar and is willing to spread the truth.
The Archbishop proclaims forcefully:

"I personally bow before Hetman Ivan Mazepa, and regard him one of the most significant figures in Ukraine’s history. And, first before making a row around the anathema, we should ask ourselves the following questions: who is the author of this anathema? Whom did it concern? The anathema was pronounced not on a person, a state activist, a prominent patron and commander, but on a man of straw. This man of straw, which was supposed to depict Mazepa, was carried down all the streets of Krolevets, shamed, spit on—all in attempt to humiliate the hetman.

And who was the initiator of the pronunciation of the anathema? Tsar Petro I, a person who gave the orders to kill and destroy the entire population of the city Baturyn. And this was almost 23 thousand people. So does a person so savagely cruel, a criminal, have the right to impose anathema even on an average person? And here we talk about Mazepa—a statesman who strove to achieve for his people, his Motherland, a better, dignified fate. The anathema is imposed on a man whose sister received a monastic hair-cut and served in an Orthodox monastery, and whose mother Maria Mahdalyna was the Mother Superior of the Floro-Voznesenskyj Monastery in Kyiv.

This is a person, whom without the great epoch in history of Ukrainian culture and architecture—Ukrainian Baroque—would not have been possible; a person whose 22-year administration prompted cities such as Chernihiv, Kyiv, Poltava, Baturyn, and Chyhyryn to flourish and change for the better. What is there to talk about Ukraine if even in the stronghold of Russian Orthodoxy—the Trinity Lavra of St. Sergius—a gated church was built in the style of “Mazepa” baroque!

In the period of Ivan Mazepa’s rule reforms were brought into practice that changed the face of the Hetmanate and brought Ukraine closer to the time’s European states. We can confirm that Ivan Mazepa himself developed drafts of the first Ukrainian constitutions, which is mentioned in documents of Petro I, Muscovite Voyevod, and in Ivan Skoropadskyj’s correspondences.
It is also worth mentioning the blossom in printing, municipal culture, and even the fact that the basis of the “skrypnykivskyj” orthography of the 20s of last century is taken from Ukrainian business and colloquial language that was used in the times of Ivan Mazepa’s Hetmanate.

Thus, I can boldly affirm that Ivan Mazepa is a person whose meaning of life was to bring his people out of slavery and implant dignity and self-respect so that we weren’t called “bydlos” and “khokhols.” This person is not a traitor; this is our Ukrainian Moses who wanted to carry Ukrainians out of captivity no less horrible than Egyptian captivity was for the Hebrews."

Now this comes from a true person who is willing to listen to reason and faith and actually knows something (i.e. that Mazepa was not some past musical interest: what absolute delusion Volodymyr, your own Archbishop has just told you basically you are wrong). I would rather talk with him than an anti-Catholic provocateur such as yourself holding stereotypical Soviet biased views of western Ukrainians, Catholics, or Ukrainian Orthodox (KP). I sometimes cannot tell if I am conversing with a politruk from Chervonyi Komsomolets with you or with a canonical as you claim you are.

I truly wish the Ukrainian Church (MP) would have less Moskovski yanychary and more people like this archbishop who realizes wrong from right is not simply a question of what Moscow decides is right or wrong.

Here is the full article link: risu.org.ua/eng/religion.and.society/analysis/article;29245/

Read it Volodymyr, you actually might learn something. It is from your own church.

 

[Rkman]

Kiyevan Church IS Russian Orthodox Church.
Galician nationalist myth about Ukraine was invented by Austro-Hungary at the end of nineteenth century. That was done to divide Russians in LittleRussia and Carpatho-Russia.
Heretics are sinning against truth while schismatics are sinning against love. Not even martyrdom for Jesus can wash away sin of schism.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Galician nationalist myth about Ukraine was invented by Austro-Hungary at the end of nineteenth century. That was done to divide Russians in LittleRussia and Carpatho-Russia.
Heretics are sinning against truth while schismatics are sinning against love. Not even martyrdom for Jesus can wash away sin of schism.

First of all, Jesus Christ shed blood for all sins and sinners but I am glad Rkman that you are limiting Christ’s love for us. Are you God? Are all Catholics schismatics and ergo bound for hell? Is this what you think?

Second of all, Ukrainian patriotism in its modern form began in Velyka Ukraina (Central and East Ukraine) before it took off in Halychyna. But you would not know this would you? Have you ever heard of Taras Shevchenko, Lesya Ukrainka, Mykola Kostomarov, Antonovych? They are not from “Galica”. They are from Ukraine. Shevchenko began writing about Ukraine decades before Franko began writing in Halychyna. Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

 

[Aramis]

Michael:

Fundamentally, it boils down to this: The Catholic Sui Iuris chrches do engage in dialogues separately from rome, hence the limited communion agreements between the Armenian Catholics and Armenian Apostolic Orthodox, the Syrian Catholics and the Syrian Orthodox, and the Chaldean Catholics and the Assyrian Church of the East. Those were not negotiated by Rome, but by the patriarchs involved, and include pastoral care provisions as well as the recepetion of the sacraments.

As for UOC-KP Autocephaly, yes, they are autocephalous. They are, orthodox and orthodpraxic, and doing exactly the same road to autocephaly as most other autocephalous orthodox churches took… Schism with hope of eventual recognition. But with the weak relationship between the MP and the EP, and Moscow’s non-recognition of Rome (And yet banning formal recognition of the UOC-KP and the UGCC as a Patriarchate by the Catholic Communion as a precondition of cotinued dialog…), the practical matter is that Moscow has effectively anathematized the UOC-KP and its faithful in many eyes… and many feel that, if the MP prevails against the KP, the next target is HB the UGCC Patriach of Kiev-Halyc.

Peaceful and willed-by-the-parent-church transition to Autocephaly is the historical abberation… The OCA is quite notable for that. And it isn’t recognized as autocephalous by several other Orthodox churches, tho’ all agree it is still canonical and at least autonomous.

As for Communion with the Catholic Church: The first step towards lasting union is not submission, but recognition of the sacraments and orders of each other. A communion like that with the ACE is still a form of communion. It precludes concelebration of the Divine Liturgy. But it permits the clerics and faithful to receive the sacraments in either.

 

[Diak]

The real ultra-nationalists are showing themselves, and their nation is not Ukraine but Muscovy. From none other than Metropolitan Agathangel of Odessa (one of the first, it should be remembered, to demand the “removal of grace” from the UOC-KP:
"The Metropolitan of Odesa of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) Ahafanhel (Savvin) expressed his view of the goal of the visit to Ukraine of the Primate of the Russian Orthodox Church Patriarch Kirill of Moscow. "The patriarch is coming to testify that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church is an inseparable part of the Russian Orthodox Church, it is the canonical territory of the Russian Orthodox ChurchHe is coming here not as a guest but as a master, as the primate of the whole Russian Orthodox Church,. " declared the metropolitan.

There you have it, friends, direct from the horse’s mouth. Autocephaly be hanged.

Here is a good one - the $34,000 watch of Patriarch Kyrill (I thought he was a humble monk? But no, he is “The Master”): unian.net/ukr/news/news-328958.html

Andrew - since the Muscovites have not apologized for Tsarist atrocities, Soviet atrocities, and the Holodomor, I expect no more from the Muscovite sympathizer “Volodymyr”, certainly nothing higher spiritually, intellectually, or theologically considering the source. But thank you for your love and dedication to the authentic and historically true Church of Kyiv.

Although the Moderators have not yet acted, this thread belongs in “Non-Catholic Religions” since it involves the visit of a Muscovite Orthodox Patriarch to his flock, and has little to do with Catholics (or even non-Muscovite Orthodox for that matter).

 

[Diak]

Kiyevan Church IS Russian Orthodox Church.
Galician nationalist myth about Ukraine was invented by Austro-Hungary at the end of nineteenth century. That was done to divide Russians in LittleRussia and Carpatho-Russia.
Heretics are sinning against truth while schismatics are sinning against love. Not even martyrdom for Jesus can wash away sin of schism.

Sir, you have created the myth. “Great Russia” (“Rossiya”, not Rus’) did not exist before Peter I. It was only Muscovy to that point. St. Peter Mohyla wanted nothing to do with the Muscovite Church, and the Kyivan Church was later forceably amalgamated with Muscovy upon its expansion (especially after the Battle of Poltava).

If you read some credible historians (such as Harvard scholar Fr. Borys Gudziak) you might learn something.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Andrew - since the Muscovites have not apologized for Tsarist atrocities, Soviet atrocities, and the Holodomor, I expect no more from the Muscovite sympathizer “Volodymyr”, certainly nothing higher spiritually, intellectually, or theologically considering the source. But thank you for your love and dedication to the authentic and historically true Church of Kyiv.

Although the Moderators have not yet acted, this thread belongs in “Non-Catholic Religions” since it involves the visit of a Muscovite Orthodox Patriarch to his flock, and has little to do with Catholics (or even non-Muscovite Orthodox for that matter).

Thanks Father Deacon, the feeling is mutual and, I agree, this is not an Eastern Catholic thread but should have been placed under Non-Catholic Religions or for that matter, as the MP Patriarch’s trip is mostly political, perhaps under secular news.

Kirill knows the political ramifications perfectly of his trip. He was at a young age approved by the Soviet authorities to head the Russian Orthodox Church delegation to the World Council of Churches in 1971. In his recent sojourn to Krym, he even made a warning to the Russian Black Sea Fleet navy men to not get close to the Ukrainian Black Sea Fleet officers. What has this got to do with religion?

Russian Patriarch Kirill even has a p.r. officer for all intents and purposes. His name is protodeacon Andrij Kurayev and he has asserted that the name of Ukraine comes from the derogatory Polish term “okrayina”, and that, instead, Ukrainians should call themselves with the proud term “Malorosiya” which in Kurayev’s words is “respectful and well-rooted”. Great, now the ROC is lecturing Ukrainians on how they should properly call themselves. Wonderful. dt.ua/1000/1550/66797/

I remember as a student hearing HH John Paul the Second speak perfect Ukrainian at the Vatican at the 1988 Millennium Celebrations. I note His Holiness JP2 also used Ukrainian in Ukraine during his visit there and made a sincere attempt to meet the narod riding his Popemobile down Khreshchatyk. Kyrill waved abit from his limousine apparently. Kirill has not even deigned to put one word in his speeches in the Ukrainian, or I’m sorry, Little Russian language. It is hard for Kirill as some have noted because in Russia, he simply is part of the State, a State Institution. This is not true in Ukraine thankfully. I hope too not to have to argue with any little russians in the future.

God Bless.

 

[Aramis]

Michael:
Autocephaly from the Catholic Church is Schism. It is therefore a sin. It’s THAT SIMPLE.

Autocephaly within the EO is not schism. Different ecclesiology.

The Muscovite church no longer seems to be a functioning part of Holy Orthodoxy, at least not in terms of Ecclesiology. Moscow has, since declaring itself a patriarchate, taken an almost Roman view of autocephaly as schism.

You can’t have it both ways in one communion. Sui Iuris status is autocephaly’s close cousin; the UGCC is Sui Iuris; for them to become autocephalous would be heretical from their point of view; it would be a denial of that which makes them Catholic.

But the UOC has no such belief; the MP vs KP issue is deeper still than just ecclesiology; Moscow civil governanace has, since Balshoi Pyotr, attemepted with all the force it can muster short of war, tried again and again to destry Ukrainian culture and nationality.

The Ukraine is, by international law, no longer subject to Russia. The Ukrainian People are still being targeted by Imperialist ambitions of great-russian politics and persons. The MP refusing to recognie the UOC’s request for true autonomy and/or autocephaly prior to the KP schism is an artifact of Russian imperialsim, not of Russian faith.

And historically, Russia is the child of Kyiv, not the other way around.

 

[Hesychios]

Michael:
Autocephaly from the Catholic Church is Schism. It is therefore a sin. It’s THAT SIMPLE.

Autocephaly within the EO is not schism. Different ecclesiology.

I am aware of the difference in ecclesiology. What I am proposing is a way for us to have a reconciliation.

Why can’t an Eastern Catholic church be autocephalic? Wouldn’t that be a proper model to propose for the Orthodox? Why not set the example?

Would Pope Benedict be pleased if the Orthodox churches allowed Roman Catholics to receive communion? I should think so.

If the UGCC were to be autocephalous and yet maintain communion with Rome, then perhaps the UOC-KP would venture to try a similar arrangement… who knows?

How many times have I read here, Roman Catholics outraged (or at the least, disappointed) that the Orthodox will not allow Catholics to receive communion? …too many times I think.

How is it that the Roman Catholic church will allow Orthodox, and PNCC (both of whom DENY Papal Universal Jurisdiction and Papal Infallibility) to receive communion? How is it that the member of the Church of the East may receive communion, and Chaldean Catholics may likewise in the C of E, yet they have no agreement on Papal Universal Jurisdiction?

Autocephaly is a sin, yet these people are welcome to receive communion

The Papacy has already demonstrated by these acts that acceptance of Papal Universal Jurisdiction is not a pre-requisite for communion. Is this not one way to reunify the church? Hasn’t the Ultramontanist theory of Universal Jurisdiction pretty much run it’s course by now? Isn’t it now time to clarify what the Petrine Office should really mean?

Why not set the Eastern Catholics free? Why not allow them to be Catholic and yet master their own destinies? Why not allow them to maintain communion with Rome because the want to, instead of because they have to obey? Why not allow them to truly claim to be Orthodox “in communion” with Rome, not “under” Rome, as in the first millenium?

Why not Autocephaly?

 

[KyivAndrew]

Father deacon, just a post-fact on Kirill’s top-of-the-line 5 figure Swiss watch. Firstly the irony is that he was giving a forceful speech on the evils of consumerism in that talk with the conspicuous watch. And the WATCH has become a big deal simply because he is in an independent, free Ukraine. In Russia, with its controlled press (and up to now 300 killed journalists (most likely with Putin’s blessings or omission to stop and prosecute) which Kirill has never commented upon or condemned), pictures of Kirill or Putin are published to flatter. It is only in Ukraine with its free press that Kirill misunderstood that he would be treated as a religious figure would be treated anywhere in a free country and not a Chekist regime. Hence, no brush up photographs. Hence, hey what do you know, check out that watch! Again, nothing sinful in this, but when you lecture profoundly on the dangers of materialism, consumerism, maybe it’s best to put the Great Watch away, especially as the press is free to publish any pictures of you they want. But Kirill apparently was quite well involved in the get-rich schemes of the 90s when he helped the ROC gain and sell tobacco, cigarettes, alcohol. I think the ROC Patriarch at the time was jokingly referred to as Philip Morris.

In Sevastopil in Krym, Kirill dined with 150 others at Crimea’s most expensive restaurant. Many complained about the fact that their churches in Crimea were all closed on the day of the visit making the faithful miss mass only in order for the MP to get out as many people as possible to manifestations to show how popular the MP is. Crimea has problems of its own with Putin surreptitiously handing out Russian passports there to its citizens to complicate Ukraine’s relationship with the West. Crimea also usually gets the real die-hard Russian Radical Imperialists like Moscow Mayor Luzhkov “visiting” who throws all kind of xenophobic language against Ukraine, and he uses the Moscow budget to pay for this expansionism campaign.

Other news, the head of the Ternopilsk Oblast Administration has decided that he will not greet Kyrill at Pochaiv because Kyrill has treated Ukrainians in “derogatory ways” during his trip. The oblast head, Oleksiy Kayda, asserted: "Being in Ukraine, the Moscow Patriarch did not with any event address the nation as “Ukraine” or “Ukrainians”. All the time instead he used the vague rhetoric of “this country” or “this people. Hence, my answer.” unian.net/ukr/news/news-329656.html

Well, I guess it’s a sign of a good pastor that he does not know how to call his flock . He may have used the term “on Ukrainian lands”, apparently. Wow. Talk about a chauvinistic, almost anti-Christian stance to take to the inhabitants of a free country called “UKRAINE”. Bottom line, the trip seems to be have been planned mostly as a political pilgrimage with political assertions at every stop, including Crimea, which perfectly meshes in with Putin’s policy of causing Ukraine problems in Crimea to stop Ukraine from joining NATO and to prevent Ukraine from sticking to the previous agreements signed with Russia which stipulate their Russian Black Sea Fleet must leave by next decade. Does no one think this part of the visit was not planned with Putin? Let’s be realistic. He can’t even call Ukrainians - Ukrainians. Is that a pastoral Father or political actor?

I’m glad he will be leaving soon to Russia, where his flock seems to have stopped growing and needs his attention, hence, his fear of losing Ukraine, the biggest predominantly Orthodox country on earth without its own Church. His trip has unnecessarily provided problems from Day One when he dismissed President Yushchenko’s comments on the need for Church unity and by his complete refusal to even sit down at least with the heads of some of the other Churches and by the amount of times he threw politics into the equation. He spoke differently in Donbas than in Kyiv, the former being much more political. He knew where to emphasize Moscow’s political stance.

God Bless.

 

[Aramis]

I am aware of the difference in ecclesiology. What I am proposing is a way for us to have a reconciliation.

You may be aware, but you do not understand; of course if you did, you would not have left the Catholic church, either.

Most people in the Sui iuris churches see their status as not only acceptable, but the right and most proper relationship with the papacy.

It’s like asking why Magadan, Wales or Scotland are not their own countries.

 

[Hesychios]

You may be aware, but you do not understand; of course if you did, you would not have left the Catholic church, either.

OK, I do not come here to talk with people I agree with. But I don’t come here for insults either.

Most people in the Sui iuris churches see their status as not only acceptable, but the right and most proper relationship with the papacy.

It’s like asking why Magadan, Wales or Scotland are not their own countries.

Although perhaps they once were, and should be again.

You are clearly representing the status quo here.

I have made the strongest case for the Zoghby Initiative you will probably ever read from an Orthodox Christian.

It is clear the idea is dead.

 

[Ghoti]

OK, I do not come here to talk with people I agree with. But I don’t come here for insults either.

I come here for the snacks. :coffeeread:

Hesychios:

I have made the strongest case for the Zoghby Initiative you will probably ever read from an Orthodox Christian.

It is clear the idea is dead.

How so? Because of the comments of people here?

I don’t know much about the Zoghby Initiative. I don’t know much about Orthodoxy, autocephaly, sui iuris, etc. Heck, I don’t know as much about Catholicism as I should.

I do know that just 'cause someone posts on a Catholic forum, doesn’t mean they speak for the Church.

I mean, just wander over to the thread about the Northern Irish man who was beaten and killed by football hooligans. Tell me who there speaks for The Real Ireland.

I pray for the reunion of The Church: the Orthodox, the Catholic, the Armenians, the Copts, the Assyrians, etc…all united into One Holy Catholic (Universal) and Apostolic Church. I don’t say under whose aegis – no triumphalism – I leave that up to God. Eventually His Will shall prevail. And I believe He wants a reunified Church. *How *He intends to do it…

 

[Diak]

Take courage; it’s not a slam dunk by any stretch of the imagination:

zik.com.ua/en/news/2009/08/03/190971

The degree of public discontent with the visit of Moscow Patriarch Kiril to Ukraine has reached such proportions that even his insiders have realized that the chauvinistic statements made by Kiril in Donbas or Sevastopol will not be tolerated in Western Ukraine as shown by quite resolute declarations of nationalists there, Andrij Yurash, an expert on religion and lecturer at the Lviv Franko university told ZIK Aug. 3.
The expert called outrageous Kiril’s utterances in Sevastopol in which he referred to the creation of an independent Ukraine as a tragic event of history. In all, Kiril made a score of equally humiliating declarations, Yurash says, notably, speaking in very aggressive and disrespectful terms about the Ukrainian Orthodox church (Kyiv patriarchate) which Moscow has not recognized. Kiril said the rites of UOC (KP) are hypocritical. He denied outright the right of Ukrainians to have their own church not subjugated to Moscow, the expert notes.

It looks, Yurash goes on, as if Patriarch Kiril came to Ukraine to promote the mindset which is accepted in Russia - the supremacy of one (Russian) church and absolute disregard for any opposing viewpoint. Ukraine is a multi-national and multi-religious country, with the years of coexistence molding the culture of mutual dialog and respect – something which Kiril lacks so much, Yurash says.

Representatives of UOC (Kyiv Patriarchate) have confirmed plans to hold a religion procession on Aug. 5 near the Pochaiv Lavra Monastery to be visited by Kiril the same day, archpriest Anatoly Zinkevych, the head of the Sviato-Troitsky religious center in Ternopil, said.

The purpose of the procession is to show Patriarch Kiril that there are many people in Ukraine who want to have their own independent church as well as to send a message to Kiril to behave as a guest in Ukraine, not as a master. “We can see that many of Kiril’s declarations are provocative, aggressive and violate the rules of good manners,” Zinkevych stressed.
The procession will be also joined by members of Cossack organizations. The organizers forecast that between 20,000 and 30,000 people will attend the procession, starting at 8.30 near the St. Andrew Church.

“We made it a point that the route of our procession doesn’t cross with any events likely to be staged by Kiril supporters to avoid provocations and clashes.

The visit to the Pochaiv Lavra is the last on Patriarch Kiril’s itinerary in Ukraine.

I ask again - who are the nationalists here? Those in Moscow, it is clear. Moscow should have more respect for the cradle of her own Christianity, Kyiv.
FDRLB

n.b. I’m still wondering why the moderators haven’t moved this to the “Non-Catholic Religions” section since it entirely concerns the visit of a Russian Orthodox Patriarch and has little or nothing to do with any Eastern Catholic hierarch.

 

[Rkman]

I was referring to schismatic so called UOC-KP, not Catholic church.

Such a hypocrisy on this forum. If Russian Orthodox Church sign Unia with Rome people here would not have problems being part of greater ‘Russian Greco-Catholic Church’. But now you are all defending nationalistic motives of UOC-KP as opposed to canonical rights of ROC.

 

[KyivAndrew]

I was referring to schismatic so called UOC-KP, not Catholic church.

Such a hypocrisy on this forum. If Russian Orthodox Church sign Unia with Rome people here would not have problems being part of greater ‘Russian Greco-Catholic Church’. But now you are all defending nationalistic motives of UOC-KP as opposed to canonical rights of ROC.

HUH When will Patriarch Kirill sign an Unia with Rome, are you crazy? Kirill will not even extend an invitation to His Holiness Pope Benedict to visit “Holy” Moscow even though the Pope wants to visit Russia, so you think the Russian Church will sign an Unia? IMHO, Kirill serves the Russian State, Gosudarstvo, and serves Jesus Christ second. Kirill has followed the KGB Colonel Putin perfectly: no condemnation of Putin’s killing of journalists, human rights violations in Russia. Rkman, the CHEKA controls Russia and it surely has massive influence on the ROC; thankfully it does not control Ukraine.

O.K. Rkman. The ROC is o.k. with Catholics according to you? Well, there are millions of Ukrainians in Russia. Ukrainians are the second largest ethnic group in Russia, among whom are many, many Ukrainian Catholics. Simple Question: Name one Ukrainian Catholic parish in Russia. Name JUST one. They have tried to worship God as their grandparents did but they cannot. There is not one single Ukrainian Catholic Church in all of Russia because it is illegal in the Chekist State! So please don’t come on here saying ROC is O.K. with Catholics, because that is not true and you are practicing hypocrisy. Can you Rkman, find one Ukrainian Catholic Church in all of Russia. I mean Russia is a big country; surely with all the millions of Ukrainians there, Putin and Kirill could allow one little church to worship Jesus Christ, no? No, of course not. That would be the Christian thing to do, and Putin will not allow that, will he? They have tried to even open up Ukrainian language schools in Russia, only to be arrested, as if being Ukrainian meant you are a untermensch in Russia. Russia has to change before it destroys itself with alcohol, wars, immorality, murders, which is exactly the course it is on right now, and it is trying to take Ukraine down that path too. All with the approval of Putin and Kirill I assume.

The only extreme nationalists are the Russian ones like Zhirinovsky, Luzhkov, etc., who praise Holy Russia while they visit Ukraine and attempt to destroy it, because it is for Bolshaya Rossiya, right. Look in your own house Rkman.

I hope one day the Russian Orthodox can sit at the same table as the Catholic. But as long as the Russian Orthodox Church continues to serve the Caesar of Moscow and Russian political imperial ambitions over serving Jesus Christ, this will not happen. I pray for Russia, that it finally may find some light after all the problems and bloodshed caused by pretending to be the 3rd Rome.

 

[josie_L]

HUH When will Patriarch Kirill sign an Unia with Rome, are you crazy? Kirill will not even extend an invitation to His Holiness Pope Benedict to visit “Holy” Moscow even though the Pope wants to visit Russia, so you think the Russian Church will sign an Unia? IMHO, Kirill serves the Russian State, Gosudarstvo, and serves Jesus Christ second. Kirill has followed the KGB Colonel Putin perfectly: no condemnation of Putin’s killing of journalists, human rights violations in Russia. Rkman, the CHEKA controls Russia and it surely has massive influence on the ROC; thankfully it does not control Ukraine.

O.K. Rkman. The ROC is o.k. with Catholics according to you? Well, there are millions of Ukrainians in Russia. Ukrainians are the second largest ethnic group in Russia, among whom are many, many Ukrainian Catholics. Simple Question: Name one Ukrainian Catholic Church in Russia. Name JUST one. They have tried to worship God as their grandparents did but they cannot. There is not one single Ukrainian Catholic Church in all of Russia because it is illegal in the Chekist State! So please don’t come on here saying ROC is O.K. with Catholics, because that is not true and you are practicing hypocrisy. Can you Rkman, find one Ukrainian Catholic Church in all of Russia. I mean Russia is a big country; surely with all the millions of Ukrainians there, Putin and Kirill could allow one little church to worship Jesus Christ, no? No, of course not. That would be the Christian thing to do, and Putin will not allow that, will he? They have tried to even open up Ukrainian language schools in Russia, only to be arrested, as if being Ukrainian meant you are a untermensch in Russia. Russia has to change before it destroys itself with alcohol, wars, immorality, murders, which is exactly the course it is on right now, and it is trying to take Ukraine down that path too. All with the approval of Putin and Kirill I assume.

The only extreme nationalists are the Russian ones like Zhirinovsky, Luzhkov, etc., who praise Holy Russia while they visit Ukraine and attempt to destroy it, because it is for Bolshaya Rossiya, right. Look in your own house Rkman.

I hope one day the Russian Orthodox can sit at the same table as the Catholic. But as long as the Russian Orthodox Church continues to serve the Caesar of Moscow and Russian political imperial ambitions over serving Jesus Christ, this will not happen. I pray for Russia, that it finally may find some light after all the problems and bloodshed caused by pretending to be the 3rd Rome.

I did not know Russia does not allow for Ukrainian Catholics to practice their faith as they should (i.e., no Church). Is it just Ukranian Catholics that are not allowed? God bless.

 

[KyivAndrew]

I did not know Russia does not allow for Ukrainian Catholics to practice their faith as they should (i.e., no Church). Is it just Ukranian Catholics that are not allowed? God bless.

Hey josie. No it is also Ukrainian Orthodox loyal to the Kyiv Patriarchate but Roman Catholics as well face discrimination in Russia. There are strict government regulations on Roman Catholics building parishes, starting churches. With the Ukrainians, it is simply illegal, arrested, bye. With the Roman Catholics, as I understand it, you cannot open up new parishes other than the ones the state has allowed you and if you proselytize Catholicism, wait for a little knock on the door in the night. Seriously, the Russian Government under Putin has made a pact basically with the Russian Orthodox Church as if the latter were an instrument of the state. So if you go to visit Russia, I do not think you will find a booming Roman Catholic community either. In a formerly communist state, where one may have to sign 20 licenses just to start a Catholic Church possibly, well, it’s pretty easy to make sure it doesn’t happen. So it’s discrimination. The Russian Orthodox Church is free to open up churches anywhere in the West or in Ukraine, but inside the Russian state itself it is either illegal (Ukrainian Catholic) or discriminated against (Roman Catholic) for all intents and purposes, which is my understanding. The ROC is frightened that if Catholics were free to proselytize, many, many Russians would leave the state institution of the ROC and perhaps give Catholicism a try, hence the roadblocks. This is my understanding.

God Bless.