Ruth Burrows and Carmelite mystical prayer

[Joysong]

Dear Dave,

So perhaps there really is a “light on” aspect to Therese afterall. I wonder if it all comes down to what God intended for each of these individuals to write . . . for our benefit. I don’t get the sense that Therese was meant to write about mystical states and stages . . . but that doesn’t necessarily mean she didn’t live it the way St. Teresa and St. John describe. Or does it??

You are quite intuitive, dear friend, and my own intuitive spirit would bet the farm that she experienced many of the contemplative graces described in the mansions. Over and over, we discover in her writings that, “I have desired to be without beauty, to tread the winepress alone, unknown to every creature.”
And, that “my face be truly hidden, that no one on earth would know me. I thirsted after suffering and I longed to be forgotten.”

She hid herself so well that no one was able to learn which foods were her favorites and which she disliked, for she never showed any preference. Hiddenness was her whole character, and I see no reason, therefore, why she would reveal the Lord’s favors, even if she did receive them. I suspect she was “light on,” but hid it! What do you think?

Since we know that she received the mystical gift similar to St. Teresa’s transverberation, it is so unlikely in my opinion, that this was granted without any other preliminary mystical graces. I’m not referring to *phenomena *here, but the gifts of prayer granted to the spirit.

Why? Because God is a God of order, as expressed by Jesus in the scriptures. “First the blade, then the ear, then the full grain in the ear.” To suddenly experience the full grain, when one has merely produced the blade, does not speak to me of God’s ways.

In the prelude to Interior Castle, St. Teresa expressed her difficulty in beginning the work that obedience imposed upon her, and said in several ways that it was her book to explain the ways of prayer. The *phenomena *were described only as possible accompanying gifts that “some” might encounter when they arrive at the sixth mansion. In the entire book, she proceeds in orderly fashion to describe the process from “blade to full grain,” under the beautiful image which God gave her of the castle. In the first room, the poor blade has not even sprung yet.

As she explains how one travels from the outer courts to the inner chamber where the King dwells - I discern that one just does not come from the courtyard to the center without preparatory stages of advancement. I believe that was her intent in writing. Alison is ‘right on’ with respect to those who are overly anxious about where they are and try to put themselves in one of the rooms. I guess that is a part of our human curiosity that needs some mortification. It isn’t always a bad thing, though, for what we read may be very useful later on as memory recalls certain phrases that are quite instructive.

I have a hard time realizing how the person reading this work would be confused, since the phenomena are not even mentioned until much later on. What I saw as difficult was understanding the language of the prayer experience itself, until I was able, for instance, to combine her words about the “prayer of quiet” from Way of Perfection, her Life, and the Castle, to get a more complete grasp of it.

Incidentally, it is very refreshing and personal to learn everyone’s real name here. I feel very bonded with you beautiful people!

God’s peace and joy be with you,
Carole

 

[ATeNumquam]

Joysong:

I have a hard time realizing how the person reading this work would be confused, since the phenomena are not even mentioned until much later on. What I saw as difficult was understanding the language of the prayer experience itself, until I was able, for instance, to combine her words about the “prayer of quiet” from Way of Perfection, her Life, and the Castle, to get a more complete grasp of it.

---

Hi Carole,
All that you wrote to Dave I agree with, and I very much agree with the problem of reconciling her varying descriptions of what is the same prayer from the 3 books you mention above!

Your “hard time realizing how the person reading this work would be confused”, I also understand, but not everyone has your high intelligence, and the obvious amount of time spent studying Carmelite spirituality. So I think it IS possible to be a little confused if one doesn’t experience contemplation quite the same way as Teresa describes, especially if one is also reading St John of the Cross and trying to “marry” the two!
Confusion is, I think, most likely to arise for people just beginning to be drawn to contemplative prayer (and I reckon it’s part of God’s way of detaching us from our sense of certainty , security and being-in-control that is so characteristic of the 3rd Mansion). If it is all going exactly “according to the book”, I’d be very suspicious of its authenticity!
But then, I can’t speak for anyone else - we are all quite unique in the way we progress, and in the particular way God leads us in our particular circumstances and make-up.

Incidentally, I have not read any of the Carmelite threads that have been posted hitherto, nor even most of the recent Dark Night thread, so - having tried to explain a bit about what Ruth Burrow was getting at, I might just bail out now, as you clearly know a great deal about these things, and I don’'t really want to come marching into these discussions unaquainted with all that has been said up till now!

Let us all pray for one another as we journey on the road to our Father’s house!

 

[Joysong]

Dear Alison,

I’m deeply embarrassed that I have come across as unsympathetic to others, or as wiser than Solomon about the ways of prayer. That it is confusing to a great amount of people is no doubt true. Maybe I’m basing this on the ladies I have met since joining the order in 1981. My office was that of Mistress of Formation, so I was by my position, in touch with so many of my sisters who have seemingly found the works helpful.

Please forgive me, for my experience is limited only to those in my small neck of the woods in PA. You and RB are expressing what you know to be true of many, many others - of that I do not doubt.

I would be so sad to lose your (name removed by moderator)ut, and I pray that you will help us along with your vast experience.

God bless you,
Carole

 

[ATeNumquam]

Joysong:

Dear Alison,

I’m deeply embarrassed that I have come across as unsympathetic to others, or as wiser than Solomon about the ways of prayer. That it is confusing to a great amount of people is no doubt true. Maybe I’m basing this on the ladies I have met since joining the order in 1981. My office was that of Mistress of Formation, so I was by my position, in touch with so many of my sisters who have seemingly found the works helpful.

God bless you,
Carole

Oh goodness me, isn’t this posting business a trial, in that misunderstandings arise when we can’t talk face to face!
PLEASE do not think I was suggesting you were unsympathetic to others or wiser than Solomon! Not at all!
I sincerely am in awe of your knowledge and experience, and that you have been Mistress of Formation is no surprise! Thankfully you can use that knowledge here on these forums.
Just because I spent 11 1/2 very muddled years in Carmel meandering around in the wildnerness of prayer, does not qualify me to speak about it, and I genuinely feel uncomfortable doing so!! And it’s not as if I left Carmel and steadily progressed on the journey - no, I took a very major detour (partly a matter of re-adjusting to the “world” and getting immersed in finding my feet, getting a job, and less worthy things) All good life-experience, maybe, but not much good on the prayer-front! I’ve only relatively recently become intent on taking up where I left off!!
So - I may have read a few books on Carmelite prayer, and I have certainly read the works of the Carmelite saints, but that doesn’t, as I said, mean I can be of much help to anyone else!
I need, rather, to pray, rather than talk about it - and I’m talking about myself here, NOT implying that others, let alone you, should do the same! So please God, no misunderstanding on that point:bowdown:
Must go to bed - it’s midnight here!
Blessings to all!
Alison

 

[DBT]

Wow! what a wonderful thread! I only have a few brief moments so just a few quick thoughts . . .

Joysong:

Hiddenness was her whole character, and I see no reason, therefore, why she would reveal the Lord’s favors, even if she did receive them. I suspect she was “light on,” but hid it! What do you think?

Yes Carole! That’s precisely how I see St. Therese .

Alison is ‘right on’ with respect to those who are overly anxious about where they are and try to put themselves in one of the rooms.

Hi Alison - You have so much to offer to this discussion. Please hang in there and keep plugging away I think there are more people here than we realize who truely hunger for this type of information . . . and you have more to say than you give yourself credit. Just think for a moment how you might have helped someone in these few brief posts! We don’t need to be “experts” (none of us are anyway) - your witness alone speaks volumes. So I sure hope to hear more from you.

Incidentally, it is very refreshing and personal to learn everyone’s real name here. I feel very bonded with you beautiful people!

There’s something about these Carmelite threads that brings out the best in us! Carole, you bring so much to the discussion and are such a wonderful guide for us all. Your charity and joy is apparent for all to see

 

[DBT]

Joysong:

Hiddenness was her whole character, and I see no reason, therefore, why she would reveal the Lord’s favors, even if she did receive them. I suspect she was “light on,” but hid it! What do you think?

And one other thought on St. Therese since she is such an interesting figure in the context of this thread.

When I think of Therese I think of her heroic virtue. And, to me at least, there is no way she could have practiced the virtues the way she did by purely human effort. She, like any of us, would have collapsed under the weight of the burden through our natural human weaknesses.

So something very deep and profound (a high understanding of Love) must have been infused into her soul . . . even if it appeared to her in a very “obscure” kind of way.

Now, if I’m understanding St. John correctly, he equates the purity (ie. infusion) of prayer to the level of obscurity. The more we are aware of things in our natural senses the less pure it is . . . the more “dark”, so to speak, the more pure. I believe the word he uses to describe all this is “oblivion.” He has a wonderful analogy of this, in the Ascent I think, about light coming through a pane of glass. The fewer the smudges on the glases, the more pure the light penetrates (infuses) the room.

And doesn’t this all tie back very nicely to St. Teresa and her mansions? As I understand her, as we travel through the mansions - through the Prayer of Recollection to the Prayer of Quiet and on through the Prayer of Union - isn’t she too really describing the degree of “oblivion” in prayer? Recollection is more “aware” and less pure than Quiet and so on through Union. I don’t think she actually uses the word “oblivion” but she is describing the degree to which our faculties are suspened which, to my understanding of her teachings, equates to much the same thing.

If all this is correct, then I’d say Therese must of had a very deep Teresian experience of prayer - even if she wasn’t necessarily “aware” of it all and didn’t talk about it much in her writings. If, as the Saints say, the truest test of contempation is the degree to which prayer directs our day-to-day actions (our fruits) . . . then I can think of few individuals who can rival her.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Alison,

Thanks ever so much for your kind words! You, too, Dave!


Dear Dave,

Yes Dave, I sense that St. Therese’s love was such that we cannot even begin to fathom the depths of it, because it was so hidden. She has unknowingly left clues in her writings for those who, with God’s help, can read between the lines and recognize her immense sanctity and heroic charity. I’m sure Elizabeth of the Trinity was one who was able to see. We should start a thread some day to share what we know about her hidden virtues. But then, you have the ability to discuss this in your chapter of Carmel, huh? Aren’t you blessed!

Your sister in Carmel,
Carole

 

[Joysong]

Joysong:

In the entire book, she proceeds in orderly fashion to describe the process from “blade to full grain,” under the beautiful image which God gave her of the castle. In the first room, the poor blade has not even sprung yet. http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

As she explains how one travels from the outer courts to the inner chamber where the King dwells - I discern that one just does not come from the courtyard to the center without preparatory stages of advancement.

Dear Dave,

Do you remember our discussion a good while ago about centering prayer? I just zeroed in on an insight after reading the brief post above. It explains why a person, IMO, cannot practice this if he is an inhabitant of the outside courtyard. All of the intervening steps that enable the growth in one’s spirit are skipped. The author of CP would expect the person to go right to the inner chamber, yet the necessary prep work has not been done.

Oh, it is so clear to me, yet I was not able to put into such simple words before! See how God has used her image for our advantage? I’ll bet she had no idea how useful it would be for our day! Cool!

 

[Mysty101]

Joysong:

Dear Dave,
It explains why a person, IMO, cannot practice this if he is an inhabitant of the outside courtyard. All of the intervening steps that enable the growth in one’s spirit are skipped. The author of CP would expect the person to go right to the inner chamber, yet the necessary prep work has not been done.

Perhaps there is a difference in understanding here. I never understood CP to be synonimous with what I understand as the inner courtyard definition of Contemplation. I believe people can center at many levels–you will focus from where you are in your prayer journey.

I believe the methods can be helpful to those closer to the beginning of the journey, if they are sincere in their desire to truly enhanse their prayer life, and not just “try something new”

 

[Joysong]

Hi Suz,

Perhaps there is a difference in understanding here. I never understood CP to be synonymous with what I understand as the inner courtyard definition of Contemplation. I believe people can center at many levels–you will focus from where you are in your prayer journey.

I pray this does not deviate from topic to discuss “centering,” but if we are talking about mystical prayer, which is the thread topic, it may be relevant for a brief moment.

Yes, it can be a helpful practice, if the person is not in the outer court, with hardly a basic desire to “truly enhance their prayer life,” as you said. The author of CP equates the procedure to that written about in “Cloud of Unknowing,” which as you know is for those much farther in their spiritual walk - yea, even for the spiritually mature, IMO.

Deeply disturbing to me is the part I shared with you from the book that it is being taught to school children without parental permission or knowledge, and in this case, can do very great harm. I find it equally, or more disturbing to read that a 3-year old child is doing this with her mother, and the author seemingly lauded it.

These, of course, are exceptions, and are included in my point that the “blade” is incapable of jumping to mature “grain.” From all my studies, this is not the norm, although I admit God, being God, may do the exceptional. I just wish I had the chance to interview these school children to see whether or not it has produced positive spiritual fruit. So, you see, I speak with limited knowledge.

 

[springbreeze]

Dear friends

The greatest pitfall to growing closer to God in prayer is the grave temptation to spiritual pride.

The hiddeness of St Therese can greatly be afforded to a wise awareness of this grave pitfall to pride.

The closer a soul is drawn to God, the harder the path.

To me all prayer is mystical, as how can broken humanity utter a word to God unless He first grants mystical graces by the power of the Holy Spirit to do so?

Each soul sings differently to the Lord to make a beautiful choir of prayer to Him in heaven. I noted the dawn chorus the other morning, each bird praising heaven as the sun rose and it reminded me of all the souls on earth praying to God, in their own pitch and the way graced to them by Him. Yes there are mansions, yes their are stages, but there should be no spiritual snobbery, as each person in any of the stages sings differently to the Lord.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[Joysong]

Dear Teresa,

A lovely reflection! Yes, the lamb is just as perfectly beautiful as the sheep; a bud is as exquisite as the full flower. The only difference is the degree of growth — each stage has its own beauty.

 

[springbreeze]

Joysong:

Dear Teresa,

A lovely reflection! Yes, the lamb is just as perfectly beautiful as the sheep; a bud is as exquisite as the full flower. The only difference is the degree of growth — each stage has its own beauty.

Lovely! Yes and the more small it becomes, the more simple and the more like the ‘bud’, like the ‘lamb’, and ’ like the ‘child’ the more beautiful it becomes.

Spiritual heights are simply endurance of the spiritual lows and accepting in child-like grace all things from the Lord .

God Bless you dear friend and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[DBT]

Joysong:

Dear Dave,

Do you remember our discussion a good while ago about centering prayer? I just zeroed in on an insight after reading the brief post above. It explains why a person, IMO, cannot practice this if he is an inhabitant of the outside courtyard. All of the intervening steps that enable the growth in one’s spirit are skipped. The author of CP would expect the person to go right to the inner chamber, yet the necessary prep work has not been done.

Oh, it is so clear to me, yet I was not able to put into such simple words before! See how God has used her image for our advantage? I’ll bet she had no idea how useful it would be for our day! Cool!

Yes Carole, that’s how I see it.

When I try to equate CP with Teresa’s Interior Castle, I’ve always had the sense that CP tries to be a modern adaptation of the 4th and 5th mansions. Unfortunately, to my way of thinking, it gives little or no attention to all the “prep work” that occurs in mansions 1 through 3 . . . where most of us spend our entire lives.

And since the majority of John and Teresa’s writings deal with all these “prep work” issues (and comparitively little on the contemplation side), I think they are a much more helpful guide for us all on how to reach that point in the journey.

I’ll stop at that since I’ve probably said waaay to much and I don’t want to become a distraction to this wonderful thread.

 

[DBT]

ATeNumquam:

I didn’t really answer this earlier. (Correct that to “try” to answer - I feel a bit out of my depth!)

I hope it was clear that the light on/off business is only about those who have passed from meditation being their usual mode of prayer into the early and subsequent stages of contemplative prayer. It’s only contemplatives who are light on/off in Ruth Burrows’ use of the term.
People drawn to contemplation are people of all temperaments and types -they may not have any attraction to St Teresa’s experiences at all, and shouldn’t covet them, for sure!
IF God calls them to it (and one can only prepare oneself by, among other things, practising the prayer of recollection that St Teresa describes maybe in the 3rd Mansion, or early 4th?? - [can’t look it up] - because it is a GIFT), he will deprive them for a time (maybe years and years) of the sort of affective and consoling prayer they had earlier on. They will feel lost and confused, yet somehow drawn to just be with God in darkness, where maybe only in retrospect - after their time of prayer - will they know somehow that something has been going on.
Now, I’m digressing.
Using the light on/off terminology differently from RB’s intention (which is purely about contemplative experience), you could say that God turns off the light for most people when they embark upon contemplative prayer! Meditative/earlier stage prayer tends to be full of lights, sweetness, consolation, maybe tears, etc etc.
Hope this is not getting confusing.

Hi Alison -

Forgive me for taking so long to respond . . . but things have been a bit hectic lately.

Yes, your description is very helpful and does clarify many of the points that were a bit muddled to me. Not confusing at all

Thank you again for starting this thread and all the time you have contributed to sharing your insight on things.

Dave.

 

[ATeNumquam]

Just one last thing about Ruth Burrows’ books - they may be hard to get (out of print?) but if you can get one, let it be the one about the Interior Castle.

Could be available in a library. I think the American title is: “Fire upon the Earth : the Interior Castle explored”

The English publishers called it"The Interior Castle explored"

She was either Prioress or Novice Mistress for years and years, not to mention people she counselled in person or by letter (lay & religious) and her books have been hugely popular for lay people who need someone to, as it were, clarify Teresa’s thought for modern people. (And some do seem to need this help). It’s not that RB departs from St Teresa’s teaching - she just bridges some cultural and intellectual gaps.
One must of course have read St Teresa herself first, so that you can be more discerning about what a commentator says, and as with all commentators, some of what they say may seem unhelpful, or downright wrong. Personally, I wouldn’t bother with the introduction to this book - it sort of put me off! - but I got a lot out of this book as a whole.
What she says about the 3rd Mansion, for example, is excellent, and really brought home to me how strongly St Teresa wanted people to move on from there! RB calls it making our home in the railway station. She describes so well how people feel they have arrived, and maybe self-satisfied in this Mansion, and how what St Teresa calls “honour” (a 16th century Spanish cultural thing, really, though we know what she means) is such a huge obstacle to progress.
(BTW, referring thus to the 3rd Mansion is not a matter of snobbery on my part - for all I know, I may still be in the 2nd mansion!! )

Buy, beg, borrow or steal this book.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Alison,

Once again, you perked my interest, and I will see if Amazon has it. I was really interested in your comment about honour, for we had discussed this a good bit on another thread recently.

She describes so well how people feel they have arrived, and may be self-satisfied in this Mansion, and how what St Teresa calls “honour” (a 16th century Spanish cultural thing, really, though we know what she means) is such a huge obstacle to progress.

As a Carmelite, were you or your sisters in community given specific instructions about how to overcome temptations of this sort? Maybe you might not have encountered it in the same way as those of us living in the world, but human nature is not all that much different, is it? Many of us might not be able to get the book, and your help, again, is most appreciated!

 

[Joysong]

Dear Alison,

You were right – it is out of print. Amazon lists a few other books of hers, including one on St. John of the Cross’s Ascent. The website is listed here below. I think we really, really need you now! :yup:

Amazon Books

 

[Joysong]

Dear family friends in Carmel,

I just finished viewing a most inspirational roundtable conference on EWTN, and learned some news about our Pope that was a real surprise to me. Fr. Mitch revealed that he was a Third Order Carmelite, ever since his seminary days, and studied all of the works of St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa. He added, which should be little surprise to us, that our Pope spent hours and hours in front of the Blessed Sacrament, and judging from his holy countenance as he prayed, they felt he was gifted with mystical prayer.

These monks tonight said they felt a special presence that they dared not intrude, when they saw the Pope in this prayer. I doubt we will wait very long for his canonization.

This brings me back to St. Therese and the wondrous extent of her hiddenness. How is it that one with so exalted a state of love could elude the chance gaze of her community upon her countenance, which would enable them to suspect her deep holiness — except that her Divine Spouse honored her request for hiddenness to such a degree that none were able to observe it. That too, is amazing! When one is in a mystical state of prayer, their face will not be able to hide the inner reality. [Moses, in his humility, wore a veil.]

Anyway, in case anyone was not aware, I was so excited and wanted to share the news about his being an OCDS.

Blessings to all on this Special Day of Divine Mercy,
Carole

 

[ATeNumquam]

Joysong:

Dear family friends in Carmel,

I just finished viewing a most inspirational roundtable conference on EWTN, and learned some news about our Pope that was a real surprise to me. Fr. Mitch revealed that he was a Third Order Carmelite, ever since his seminary days, and studied all of the works of St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa.

Anyway, in case anyone was not aware, I was so excited and wanted to share the news about his being an OCDS.

Blessings to all on this Special Day of Divine Mercy,
Carole

Yes, I was in Carmel when Pope John Paul II was elected and the Carmelite grapevine got the word out at once that he had that connection to Carmel.
He wrote his doctoral thesis on some aspect of St John of the Cross - sorry, can’t remember the exact topic, but we had a copy of it, and I read some, but I confess I don’t remember much about what he said (my memory is lousy and it was a bit too scholarly and esoteric for me!)
He wrote beautiful things about the contemplative life. He made no secret of his love for Carmel, and his addresses to the Order were beautiful.