Ruth Burrows and Carmelite mystical prayer

[DBT]

Joysong:

I’m sorry to digress, but I get really upset with these descriptions, and it is not fair to the reader! May St. Teresa from her place in heaven guide us and inspire us with the Truth.

Hi Carole -

Well I guess I was a bit to hasty in posting this link . . . should have read through it more carefully before posting. You raise some very good points.

I agree with you that one of the things that is most confusing about John and Teresa is the whole concept of prayer stages and prayer states.

If I understand Teresa correctly, she is talking about states - experiences that are of a short duration (say 15 or 30 minutes) and occur sporadically or infrequently to someone who has been brought to the 4th mansions and beyond.

For example, an individual might go to Eucharistic Adoration and experience a deep interior silence and a sense of profound peace and joy. Perhaps something like this might be called the Prayer of Quiet by St. Teresa.

But it DOES NOT mean, at least to my understanding, that the person leaves that time at Eucharistic Adoration and walks around in a perpetual state of peace and joy from then on. Quite the contrary. Nor does it mean that the next time that the individual goes to Adoration that they would experience anything like what had happened previously.

Sorry if my enthusiasm caused confusion to anyone following along

 

[springbreeze]

Joysong:

Dear Dave,

I looked at the link, and see once again, where human interpreters give a meaning that is not entirely true, my guess being that they have not experienced it, and approach her writings with a textbook analysis.

You and I have shared privately some ideas on this, and solely for the sake of those who read the link, I think it is wise to suggest that they go to the horse’s mouth, so to speak — and not believe all they read, unless it is in the light of what St. Teresa wrote. Of course, this can be very confusing, due to language barriers, and lack of experience with which to understand it.

For instance, the link portraying mansions 5 and 6 are not giving a true picture.

I would have preferred this author used the word “experienced” the prayer of union, rather than “begins,” which for many is a momentary one-time-only prayer experience, signifying entry into the mansion. We read in this mansion, that the person, through the supernatural effects of the experience, dies to self and becomes a butterfly. It is not something that takes place continuously in prayer, and misleads the reader entirely, believing it is some sort of stage rather than a singular mystical gift of prayer that lasts only a brief moment. The 5th mansion describes the prayer experience itself, and its authentic effects, i.e., the fruit of it. Many have a problem differentiating between the two.

This, too is a distortion. It leaves the reader believing that after this experience the person walks around in sublime interior joy throughout the time they are in this mansion. Absolutely false, for in this mansion, after the gift of rapture, they undergo the passive trials of the Dark Night, which keeps the soul in a fairly frequent experience of the “distress” in which St. Teresa says she continuously found herself. These are the divine wounds of love, in which spiritual pain co-exists with a wondrous delight, and which can be so intense as to cause one’s death. I pray no person who reads the description above, will get the notion that these souls walk around in an ecstatic joy. It pertains solely to the experience of rapture alone, and not to the stage that one is in afterwards, which does not admit of perpetual joy. Stage of development is so often confused with the supernatural gift, that it is no wonder these authors cause confusion.

I’m sorry to digress, but I get really upset with these descriptions, and it is not fair to the reader! May St. Teresa from her place in heaven guide us and inspire us with the Truth.

Your sister in Carmel,
Carole

Dearest Carole

I will say that St Teresa’s writings are not meant to be a step by step manual that we follow and expect absolutely the same things at exactly the same stages and in all fairness to DBT the main thrust of that site is correct.

It would be unrealistic for another person to experience the mansions exactly as St Teresa has written them down. All souls are different and the Lord Deals with each soul differently. We are unique creations each with a unique personality…the mansions are in 7 stages, the mansions achieve a certain ‘place’ but the hows and the chasms between there are differing because people are so very diverse…still what she writes is a truth.

We all have our own personal relationship with the Lord and it would be equally unfair and unjust if I imposed my relationship with the Lord upon others.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[springbreeze]

DBT:

Hi Carole -

Well I guess I was a bit to hasty in posting this link . . . should have read through it more carefully before posting. You raise some very good points.

I agree with you that one of the things that is most confusing about John and Teresa is the whole concept of prayer stages and prayer states.

If I understand Teresa correctly, she is talking about states - experiences that are of a short duration (say 15 or 30 minutes) and occur sporadically or infrequently to someone who has been brought to the 4th mansions and beyond.

For example, an individual might go to Eucharistic Adoration and experience a deep interior silence and a sense of profound peace and joy. Perhaps something like this might be called the Prayer of Quiet by St. Teresa.

But it DOES NOT mean, at least to my understanding, that the person leaves that time at Eucharistic Adoration and walks around in a perpetual state of peace and joy from then on. Quite the contrary. Nor does it mean that the next time that the individual goes to Adoration that they would experience anything like what had happened previously.

Sorry if my enthusiasm caused confusion to anyone following along

Dearest Dave

Your enthusiasm has done no harm whatsoever. I read through the whole of that site and I did not see an inaccurate interpretation. I saw a writer attempting to describe the undescribeable

St Teresa attempted to describe the undescribeable and she did this from experience of it! It leaves most people scratching their heads, trying to understand the complexities of it.

I truly believe the soul is not meant to fully understand it to live in it, nor does the soul need to be fully aware of what is taking place in it, infact the Lord prefers to work without the knowing of the soul, just that the soul pre-dispose itself to His work.

This pre-disposition is for the better part even begun by the Lord Who draws a soul to Himself and places in that soul a yearning for Himself.

In all eventuallity, whether we understand it or not, He desires it and He will ensure those He desires it of, He draws to Himself and if the freewill is such to desire His Will then the work is done, with the soul really only barely knowing the minimum that it needs to know.

Truly all the soul knows for all certainty, is that the soul has been touched by the Lord.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[Joysong]

Dear Dave,

Well I guess I was a bit to hasty in posting this link . . . should have read through it more carefully before posting. You raise some very good points.

I agree with you that one of the things that is most confusing about John and Teresa is the whole concept of prayer stages and prayer states.

If I understand Teresa correctly, she is talking about states - experiences that are of a short duration (say 15 or 30 minutes) and occur sporadically or infrequently to someone who has been brought to the 4th mansions and beyond.

Please be glad that you brought it to our attention, for that is how we sort out truth and learn from each other. Good will come from it, for who knows what innocent person may have logged on to that site and misread it. I’m thinking about Laurie, now, who did a search on Carmelite mysticism and found our Forum!

You have an excellent understanding of it! The problem with Teresa’s habit of quickly writing without going back to her previous notes, is that she intermingles the two in such a way, that it is awfully hard to know whether she speaks about the state of prayer or the stage of prayer. I’m hoping the book Ruth wrote will have language to help us to distinguish them in a manner that is more proficient than I can write here.

I admire how well you grasp this, Dave!

God’s blessings,
Carole

 

[springbreeze]

Joysong:

Dear Dave,

Please be glad that you brought it to our attention, for that is how we sort out truth and learn from each other. Good will come from it, for who knows what innocent person may have logged on to that site and misread it. I’m thinking about Laurie, now, who did a search on Carmelite mysticism and found our Forum!

You have an excellent understanding of it! The problem with Teresa’s habit of quickly writing without going back to her previous notes, is that she intermingles the two in such a way, that it is awfully hard to know whether she speaks about the state of prayer or the stage of prayer. I’m hoping the book Ruth wrote will have language to help us to distinguish them in a manner that is more proficient than I can write here.

I admire how well you grasp this, Dave!

God’s blessings,
Carole

Dearest Carole

I do not see how that site would lead anyone astray. We also do not know anything about Laurie to comment on her mystical prayer, lack of, abundance of, or otherwise!

The site did not say that ever after we walk the earth in a complete and utter state of union and ecstacy.

I am wondering in all honesty, what is the purpose of exploration of mystical prayer? I think my intention is everything, I think that I would not set myself up as an authority, I think I would rather leave it all to God.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[Joysong]

Dear Teresa,

Your enthusiasm has done no harm whatsoever. I read through the whole of that site and I did not see an inaccurate interpretation. I saw a writer attempting to describe the undescribeable.

No doubt the author is sincere, Teresa, but sincerity is not always synonymous with true. This description is not accurate, but you may hold your own opinion, if you like.

Yes, as you wrote below, we do not need to understand it to live it. But it is, as St. Teresa says, a grace to be able to understand. Thank God she did, for it was her position as Foundress to enlighten many others. There were many books of mysticism in circulation in her day, and it was necessary for those entering her order to be properly directed. As I mentioned elsewhere, most of her convents did have a number of women who were receiving mystical graces.

I truly believe the soul is not meant to fully understand it to live in it, nor does the soul need to be fully aware of what is taking place in it, in fact the Lord prefers to work without the knowing of the soul, just that the soul pre-dispose itself to His work.

I disagree that the Lord prefers to work without the knowing of the soul, for her writings indicate otherwise; especially with the grace of spiritual betrothal. The Lord desires that the person be fully aware of the grace it is receiving, and that is the special nature of this gift. I realize you are new to Carmel, but when you are more familiar with her writings, it will be more clear to you as you go along.

I will say that St Teresa’s writings are not meant to be a step by step manual that we follow and expect absolutely the same things at exactly the same stages and in all fairness to DBT the main thrust of that site is correct.

I already addressed the latter part of the quote, but as to the first part, yes - it is not a manual, only a guide, which is generally truthful. As we go along here, maybe more of it will become clear. Alison has promised to share some insights with us.

God’s blessings,
Carole

 

[Augustine]

Joysong:

… I think it is wise to suggest that they go to the horse’s mouth, so to speak — and not believe all they read, unless it is in the light of what St. Teresa wrote. Of course, this can be very confusing, due to language barriers, and lack of experience with which to understand it.

I share the same approach: in spiritual readings, I avoid reading commentators. Even the Gospels, I read comments on them only by Doctors or Saints. IMHO, it’s the only way to safeguard my soul against the errors of others. And by relying on those already in Heaven, I avoid commiting the many mistakes I would on my own.

 

[springbreeze]

Joysong:

Dear Teresa,

.

No doubt the author is sincere, Teresa, but sincerity is not always synonymous with true. This description is not accurate, but you may retain your own opinion, if you like.

I will retain it Carole because you have interpreted that this site implies that ever after a person will remain joyous and forever go around shouting from the rooftops, when this is not the case, neither does the author of this site state that is the case…if you had recevied such a mystical grace as the prayer of union, you may well tell/shout it from the rooftops, this does not mean that the state persists any longer than it does or the Lord cares to grace it for. The telling/talking/ shouting of it may well persist.

Yes, as you wrote below, we do not need to understand it to live it. But it is, as St. Teresa says, a grace to be able to understand. Thank God she did, for it was her position as Foundress to enlighten many others. There were many books of mysticism in circulation in her day, and it was necessary for those entering her order to be properly directed. As I mentioned elsewhere, most of her convents did have a number of women who were receiving mystical graces.

St Teresa does not understand it absolutely fully. She would be God herself if she did. He that graces many gifts is not fully understood by the gifts nor the gracing of them. The gifts and graces are merely an outward sign of the inward manifestation of Him within the soul and therefore in the context of the soul in which He manifests Himself in by way of grace and gift. We are not to be tied merely to the God of gifts but to seek God. In seeking God we will look to the gifts for an indication of whom the Giver is. Yes? But we do not by union or mystical prayer come to know the fullness of God and so we only see by indication of gifts whom the Giver is.

However to look purely to the state of prayer and the stages of prayer as a total LINE of how prayer and stages are graced to souls does not give an across the board indication of what God will do and how He will do it. He is of course God and no human should put Him into neat boxes and label Him and expect certain things in certain ways other than His promises…ie Eucharist, Baptism…in these promises we know how we personally meet with God in Jesus, these are set and we are fully aware of all things in these promises.

I disagree that it the Lord prefers to work without the knowing of the soul, for her writings indicate otherwise; especially with the grace of spiritual betrothal. The Lord desires that the person be fully aware of the grace it is receiving, and that is the special nature of the gift.

St Teresa did not know the how, she did not know what manner her Lord worked in her, she did not know the fullness of why…she only knew that He did as she experienced it and described what He did. I believe that souls are given to know certain things of what God works in them purely so that that soul may praise and give thanks to Him.

I already addressed the latter part of the quote, but as to the first part, yes - it is not a manual, only a guide, which is generally truthful. As we go along here, maybe more of it will become clear. Alison has promised to share some insights with us.

If someone would care to demystify God for me then I would tell them to take a hike…God is a wonderful mystery and prayer with Him is an exciting journey of mystery, to think we can in all honesty sit and give a total formula of how God works in us by prayer is to totally delude ourselves. God is mystery yet we know Him, this is also mystery, prayer is talking and listening to God yet it still is mystery, yet the heart knows it is perfectly logical, though it is a mystery.

If we are trying to understand God so that He is without mystery then we are on a futile journey!

God’s blessings,
Carole

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[Joysong]

Dear Teresa,

I do not see how that site would lead anyone astray. We also do not know anything about Laurie to comment on her mystical prayer, lack of, abundance of, or otherwise!

Well, not in the sense of losing their soul or anything.
Let’s look at it, since you brought it up. Suppose someone who was basically walking in the dark and reads that Website’s description — that one has so much joy in the 6th mansion that they want to “shout it from the housetops.” Assume this person is legitimately in that mansion undergoing the purification St. John mentions, and is experiencing the “distress” so common to that stage.

If they were to read that there is so very much joy, could it not do terrible harm as the person sees their own spirit receiving something so vastly different? These persons suffer terribly as it is, and it would surely increase their sufferings to believe they have really lost the way, as they read descriptions like this where others wrongly tell it what should be their state.

As for Laurie, I really did not mean anything at all about her spiritual state. I only wanted to show how many people hear a phrase, run to Google for a search, and then come up with false ideas from sites that innocently give misinformation. No, I don’t fault the author, for he/she sincerely thinks what they wrote is helpful and true.

God’s blessings,
Carole

 

[Joysong]

Dear Teresa,

We have been posting simultaneously, I’m afraid, and overlapping each other. I am sensing that you are firm in your beliefs, and I have no desire to get into a conflict here, so if you feel as you do, God bless you. It is not my place to change your views, especially when they are so fixed. Please use caution as you express St. Teresa’s doctrine here, for there are many who read these posts.

God’s blessings,
Carole

 

[DBT]

Hi to all -

We’ll I guess I created a bit of a tempest in a teapot with all this - Sorry to all

You know one of the things that absolutely amazes me about St. Teresa is that she was even able to write about any of this at all. I can only imagine the frustration she must have felt when “told” to write of her prayer experiences and have any hope at all it would make sense to her fellow sisters in Carmel . . . let alone the litterly billions of people who’ve walked this earth since her day. That her writings can be viewed as even a general guidepost for so many is a true testament to her and the inspiration she was given.

I think one of the brilliant ways St. Teresa found to work her way through all this in her descripion of the 7 mansions was to acknowlege that that are many other mansions - each with many, many rooms. I think this was her way of saying that people will likely have slightly differing experiences with all of this . . . but that the general pattern she outlined will be true to all.

The ironic thing in all of this is that I see myself agreeing with pretty much everything both Carole and Teresa have been saying in these recent posts. What some might see as a bit of an arguement to me actually has quite a bit of underlying commonality to it - I see the point each is trying to make.

And that, in a nutshell, is why these kind of discussions are so difficult. St. Teresa, by her own admission, felt quite scatter brained in her explanation of things. Combine that with the many, many levels of understanding we are all coming from on this (whether academic or by lived experience) and I think what we end up with is a recipe for a pretty incoherent batch of stew.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Dave,

And that, in a nutshell, is why these kind of discussions are so difficult. St. Teresa, by her own admission, felt quite scatter brained in her explanation of things. Combine that with the many, many levels of understanding we are all coming from on this (whether academic or by lived experience) and I think what we end up with is a recipe for a pretty incoherent batch of stew.

You have such a beautiful finesse and manner of expressing things! I remember reading somewhere that you exercise these talents in your profession, and it is such a pleasure to observe you in action.

Differ though we may, and however complex the task of coming to understand these writings, I think it is good to keep struggling together, provided:

a. we keep an open mind to learn new insights
b. we ask one another to provide the reference, if we are in doubt
c. we ask for more clarification of the other’s meaning
d. we, above all, keep a charitable esteem for the other’s written contributions

Thanks for your good common sense and helpfulness in preventing the thread from deteriorating. I believe God’s hand is upon it.

Warmest regards,
Carole

 

[DBT]

Joysong:

Differ though we may, and however complex the task of coming to understand these writings, I think it is good to keep struggling together, provided:

a. we keep an open mind to learn new insights
b. we ask one another to provide the reference, if we are in doubt
c. we ask for more clarification of the other’s meaning
d. we, above all, keep a charitable esteem for the other’s written contributions

A wonderful suggestion!

I believe God’s hand is upon it.

Agreed!

 

[Joysong]

Dear Teresa,

After reading Dave’s last post, I realized we were speaking about two different aspects here.

If someone would care to demystify God for me then I would tell them to take a hike…God is a wonderful mystery and prayer with Him is an exciting journey of mystery, to think we can in all honesty sit and give a total formula of how God works in us by prayer is to totally delude ourselves.

If we are trying to understand God so that He is without mystery then we are on a futile journey!

If you scroll back through the posts, I don’t recall seeing that any of us in studying the material in the mansions, are attempting to demystify God. This was your conclusion, I suppose, and as such, it is a correct one with which I agree. For no matter how exalted the favors granted by God, the soul will never completely “know” Him in His essence. Impossible!

Actuallly, what we are attempting to demystify is the Interior Castle of St. Teresa, and that is the primary reason Alison began the thread.

What I think you misunderstood was this paragraph of mine which prompted the answer you gave above.

I disagree that it the Lord prefers to work without the knowing of the soul, for her writings indicate otherwise; especially with the grace of spiritual betrothal. The Lord desires that the person be fully aware of the grace it is receiving, and that is the special nature of the gift.

May I refer you to Interior Castle, VI:4:9, where St. Teresa wrote:

These experiences have nothing to do with rapture. In a rapture, believe me, God carries off for Himself the entire soul, and, as to someone who is His own and His spouse, He begins showing it some little part of the kingdom that it has gained by being espoused to Him.

There are other places that are similar, but since I had mentioned the grace of spiritual betrothal above, this was St. Teresa’s confirmation of awareness, rather than not knowing what took place.

 

[springbreeze]

Dearest Carole

What have I said that would lead anyone astray? Just because I am not able to quote chapter and verse of St Teresa’s writings does not mean I am totally wrong in what I say and therefore does not mean you are totally right in what you say.

If you admonish me to be careful, I will return the same suggestion to yourself as you are interpreting St Teresa’s writings based on what you have learnt and you experience as is anyone else.

Please use caution as you express St. Teresa’s doctrine here, for there are many who read these posts.

If this above in blue is charitable esteem for others writings then I am surprised!

I have been open to others suggestions and I am thinking why is it that what I have said is not accepted by yourself as in all possibility right, purely because you have never seen it that way before.

The point that you are failing to notice is that St Teresa writes of her own union with God, she cannot write for anyone else’s union and that all experience God differently in mystical prayer whatever mansion they are in. Her writings give a ‘general’ teaching on mystical prayer, the ‘mansions’, she can tell you there are certain things, such as union with God but they cannot and never will be specific to each and every person, one can study her writings all day long and never find an explicit answer within her writings to cover what happens to the individual soul.

If an open mind is to be kept, it can only be kept if when a person offers a differing opinion to that of yourself, you see it as that rather than an affront to your person. I certainly would not want to offend you, but just as you are entitled to your stand point, so I am entitled to mine.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[springbreeze]

continued

Dear Carole

Whilst I accept you are knowledgeable on mystical prayer that does not mean you are an absolute authority on it. We will have to agree to differ here and on this note, move on.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[ATeNumquam]

Whew!!
Just half a day away from this thread and it has grown like Topsy.
Can’t keep up this sort of volume of posting, myself, so I’m thinking twice about starting ANY thread about the mansions (and indeed, it WOULD make sense to start at the beginning)
Right now I’ve suddenly got involved with a friend leaving the religious life and in a state of crisis, so what time I have for writing will have to be devoted to her. So I’m going to have to lie low for a bit. I hope maybe someone else will start another thread if they want to and I may look in later.
And no, sorry, Carole I do not have a scanner, so would have to quote bits of Ruth Burrows. Of course her book on the mansions starts with the first mansion in case anyone doubted it would!
God bless you all - and could I ask prayers for my friend (a Carmelite). Sigh! I hope she changes her mind.

 

[buzzcut]

I am happy to pray for your friend.

If anyone wants out of print books, I’ve had good results ordering from They have many Ruth Burrows titles, including a nice Guidelines for mystical prayer for $12. Ex-convent library.

If we’re taking a vote as to where to begin, I’d prefer to start at the very beginning – a very good place to start.

 

[DBT]

Joysong:

I realized we were speaking about two different aspects here.

And I think this goes right to the heart of what I see going on in these recent posts . . . nobody is right or wrong . . . our perspectives and lived experiences are just very different making a coherent discussion, in my mind, very difficult. Let me try and explain how I’m seeing this.

I’ll be the first to admit that I’m very new to Carmel and have a pretty limited grasp on this . . . I’ve probably only read a small percentage of the writings. However, based on what I have read, I’ve come to see the Carmelite writings as like different colors within the same rainbow .

On one end of the “color spectrum” you have John and Teresa. Their focus is on the why and how of things and, rightly so, they are the foundation on which all of Carmel is built. They are mystical doctors of the Church for very good reason and are our surest guide to contemplative prayer. I think this goes without saying or much further explanation . . . hopefully this is obvious to all.

Moving through this “color spectrum” I see other writers mentioned in this thread like Therese and Elizabeth of the Trinity. While they no doubt understood John and Teresa to a very high degree, they chose to express their spirituality in slightly different ways . . . while still very much maintaining the spirit of Carmel.

At the opposite end of the “color spectrum” I see someone like Brother Lawrence. He too probably understood John and Teresa to a very high degree but was drawn to express himself, to my way of thinking, in a very different . . . very simplified kind of way. At least the way I see it, Brother Lawrence - even more so than Therese - boiled all the teachings of Carmel down to a single word. That word is Love. Brother Lawrence had no time for theological discussions, analyzing things or even practicing popular devotions. All that mattered to him was to stay in a continual, perpetual, habitual loving attentiveness to Him in all he thought or did.

So moving back where we are in this thread, I think this kind of “tension” between differing aspects of Carmelite spirituality helps explain the current situation. If I have my John and Teresa hat on, then I see that Carole is making some very good points on things. However, if I’m in more of a Brother Lawrence kind of mode then Teresa’s comments are right on. But when you get right down to it, ALL of this is Carmel . . . it’s ALL the same rainbow . . . if only we choose to look at it that way.

Well, for what it’s worth . . . that’s how I see it.

 

[buzzcut]

Hi, DBT, maybe I’m showing my ignorance here, but as far as I know Brother Lawrence was a cook in the kitchen and maybe didn’t have time for the hour of contemplative prayer twice a day that St Teresa advocates. So, he had to find another way. Maybe we can call his prayer a permanent prayer of recollection, permanent recollection in the course of everyday life?