Ruth Burrows and Carmelite mystical prayer

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buzzcut:
Hi, DBT, maybe I’m showing my ignorance here, but as far as I know Brother Lawrence was a cook in the kitchen and maybe didn’t have time for the hour of contemplative prayer twice a day that St Teresa advocates. So, he had to find another way. Maybe we can call his prayer a permanent prayer of recollection, permanent recollection in the course of everyday life?
Hi Buzz -

I guess the point I was trying to make about this was a little to abstract.

Yes Brother Lawrence was a cook in the kitchen and, to my limited understanding, he followed all the Rules to his station in life regarding the set times of prayer. However, the key point to Brother Lawrence, as I see him, is that he saw no distinction between these set times of prayer and all other times - for all was prayer to him.

I guess the real point I was trying to make is that Brother Lawrence seems to me the type of person who would have little or no interest talking about things like mansions and prayer states and stages . . . the things being discussed on this thread. I would think he would find all of that a major distraction from his vocation to simply maintaining his constant state of recollection as you describe. I don’t see him as a “thinker,” of things Carmel, rather he was someone who had a true gift to simply “just be.”

And thinkers and be-ers are both very much part of the Carmelite tradition which was my whole thought process behind the rainbow analogy. In my own case, I continually find myself swinging back and forth between these two extremes.

Sorry, I don’t know if this makes any sense at all . . . 🙂
 
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DBT:
Hi Buzz -

I guess the point I was trying to make about this was a little to abstract.

Yes Brother Lawrence was a cook in the kitchen and, to my limited understanding, he followed all the Rules to his station in life regarding the set times of prayer. However, the key point to Brother Lawrence, as I see him, is that he saw no distinction between these set times of prayer and all other times - for all was prayer to him.

I guess the real point I was trying to make is that Brother Lawrence seems to me the type of person who would have little or no interest talking about things like mansions and prayer states and stages . . . the things being discussed on this thread. I would think he would find all of that a major distraction from his vocation to simply maintaining his constant state of recollection as you describe. I don’t see him as a “thinker,” of things Carmel, rather he was someone who had a true gift to simply “just be.”

And thinkers and be-ers are both very much part of the Carmelite tradition which was my whole thought process behind the rainbow analogy. In my own case, I continually find myself swinging back and forth between these two extremes.

Sorry, I don’t know if this makes any sense at all . . . 🙂
Dear DBT

You make alot of sense to me.

I can see that Carole’s more analytical/academic approach is correct and I can also see my approach is correct and neither are wrong.

I think you have raised a very good point which shows what I so poorly tried to say, that although we are Carmel and within Carmel, that charism of Carmel is differing within persons and each has something to bring to and receive from Carmel. That when I read St Teresa’s writings I perceive and then even still more express what I perceive, differently.

I sometimes wish I was more analytical and able to dissect St Teresa’s writings in the way that Carole can and does, but that is not how I live in Carmel. I can read and make analysis, I experience and try to understand and I make perceptions, but in that the overriding aspect of St Teresa’s writings to me is the growth in Love, that Love which is Christ Jesus and Love no matter how hard I try to enclose it and put labels on it and contain it, Love always bursts forth from any confines and therefore I find this analytical/academic approach is not for me, that doesn’t make that approach wrong, it just makes it different.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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ATeNumquam:
and could I ask prayers for my friend (a Carmelite). Sigh! I hope she changes her mind.
Dear Alison

I hope she changes her mind as well. I will keep her in my prayers.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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springbreeze:
I sometimes wish I was more analytical and able to dissect St Teresa’s writings
Hi Teresa -

Good to see you and yes, to your comment above, don’t we all! I sometimes find myself trying so hard to understand in my mind what John and Teresa are saying that I forget that it is God who teaches these things in our hearts. And what a wonderful thing it would be to know all this in both the mind and heart! For to truely know it in the mind . . . it will be known in the heart as well. That’s why I find everyone’s point of view on this so valuable.

So at those times when I’m feeling a bit of a brain cramp about it all, I find it wonderful that Carmel provides the Church other great guides like Therese and Brother Lawrence who, in their childlike simplicity, can teach us so much. When I get overwhelmed by it all, I find someone like Brother Lawrence to be like a cool glass of water on a hot day 👍 Then, when I find myself refreshed, I go back and try to tackle John and Teresa again!

Good to talk to you again . . .

Dave.
 
DBT, your mentioning Brother Lawrence is very timely for me. I’d begun to wonder if my interest in St Teresa of Avila would ever have any practical value. Interesting and inspiring to study, perhaps, but would it ever be anything else? You remind me that Brother Lawrence is much more relevant for someone like myself leading an ordinary life.
 
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buzzcut:
DBT, your mentioning Brother Lawrence is very timely for me. I’d begun to wonder if my interest in St Teresa of Avila would ever have any practical value. Interesting and inspiring to study, perhaps, but would it ever be anything else? You remind me that Brother Lawrence is much more relevant for someone like myself leading an ordinary life.
Hi Buzz -

I see so much of myself in you . . . another inquisitive searcher! Brother Lawrence is a wonderful guide. And who knows where he might end up leading you. Try and hang in there, though, with St. Teresa . . . she has a lot to say about all of us leading “ordinary” lives. 👍

Dave.
 
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DBT:
Hi Teresa -

Good to see you and yes, to your comment above, don’t we all! I sometimes find myself trying so hard to understand in my mind what John and Teresa are saying that I forget that it is God who teaches these things in our hearts. And what a wonderful thing it would be to know all this in both the mind and heart! For to truely know it in the mind . . . it will be known in the heart as well. That’s why I find everyone’s point of view on this so valuable.

So at those times when I’m feeling a bit of a brain cramp about it all, I find it wonderful that Carmel provides the Church other great guides like Therese and Brother Lawrence who, in their childlike simplicity, can teach us so much. When I get overwhelmed by it all, I find someone like Brother Lawrence to be like a cool glass of water on a hot day 👍 Then, when I find myself refreshed, I go back and try to tackle John and Teresa again!

Good to talk to you again . . .

Dave.
Dear Dave

You have misunderstood what I said about myself. I can and do analyse St Teresa’s writings, but I do not do it in the way Carole does. It is different approaches. I am not fixed into thinking it is my way or the highway! I can see Carole’s way of looking at St Teresa’s writings is correct and so is mine, but in all honesty I cannot sit and dissect Teresa’s writings in the manner Carole does, it would drive me insane to do that. My analysis of St Teresa is not such a text book approach. I am not sitting here teaching anyone but myself, Carole has been in the past in the position of instructing others, her approach is academic, mine is more aesthetical and less rigid.

She must have most of her books on her computer if not all of it! Do I do that? No. I read and make my observations and perceptions, I understand and I re-read and keep learning. I do not see my own way of looking at St Teresa as the only way and this is what I tried to address to Carole, that Carole’s way is not the only way. Simply that is the point I was making.

This has gone way off the topic of the original thread and I apologise for that. But it occurred to me in the reading of the thread that the dominant approach to St teresa was one of academia and intellectual analysis and in that process the finer points of aesthetics and the beauty of the writing can be lost, the parts that touch the heart.

I also found in this thread that one person’s wealth on a subject is not the only wealth to be found. We all personally draw from her writings, just as we all may read Sacred Scripture and differing parts may touch different people. No two people have the same relationship with God, just as no two people have the same relationship as another person has with a person. To therefore set out what is within the mansions as a set pattern is to equate it to a mathematical formula and say it can never be anything else.

It is a guide of what the stages are, the possible problems, the graces and benefits and what may happen in each stage. It cannot say how each person MUST experience God in the mansions because people an their perceptions are differing, God however does not change and we can by the guidelines of St Teresa’s writings realise and recognise God’s work. However we cannot neatly box it, it doesn’t work like that, it is us who are changing and differing and in that there is a whole broad scope within Teresa’s writings for the individual reading to realise they fall somewhere roughly within this mansion or that, sometimes slipping between two mansions and bridging them.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
Dear friends

This has gone way off topic and I for my part in that drifting off topic apologise for that.

As I have not read anything Ruth Burrows has written, I’ll shut up now 😃 .

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
Hi Teresa -

Sorry, I think we have a BIG misunderstaning here. When I said what I said a couple of posts ago I was talking about ME not YOU. Actually, I was trying to give you a bit of a compliment 🙂 .

I hope that fixes things.
 
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DBT:
Hi Geraldine and welcome!

I’d like to echo Alison’s suggestions . . . especially Fire Within. For reasons I really can’t explain here, I feel I was led to that book about 4 years ago and it helped “ignite” a period of intense searching that is still going on within me. Fr. Dubay is a wonderful guide and I credit his book for getting me to even consider whether or not I had a calling as a Secular Carmelite.
Hi DBT, thank you for the welcome. I think I’m going to start with Alison’s suggestion of reading St Teresa’s *Life *mainly because it will be available in my public library in a few days. I am so looking forward to reading it! I will post more as I make my way through it! I checked to see if Fr Dubay’s book was at the library but it is not listed, so I will check my local Catholic bookstore when I’m finished with *Life. *Many thanks and God bless!

Geraldine
 
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Joysong:
Hello, Geraldine,

You will laugh, but when we met on another thread, I pictured you as a man. What a lovely surprise to learn otherwise! It is so good to learn people’s names to put to rest these confusions, and “Geraldine,” it is wonderful to see how God is working in these threads — I welcome you wholeheartedly!

Like Alison, I too, chanced by accident to find St. Teresa of Avila’s Life in my neighbor’s spiritual library, and that was my beginning in learning about prayer. St. Teresa doesn’t concentrate upon Carmel therein, as she does elsewhere, for she simply wrote about her own life and how God brought her to Himself.

Her autobiography is a treasure of information for anyone reading it, whether or not the person develops an attraction to the Carmelite vocation. She explodes into moments of prayer, and also identifies with much of human nature, which makes her very warm to read. As for Father Dubay, I have a couple of his books, though not the one Alison mentioned, but he is more of a theologian writing in textbook fashion. It would not do to begin there, at least until you have fully digested her autobiography and some of her other writings. You will find that many, many authors quote her, so having this background will be very useful in discerning error.

God’s peace and joy,
Carole
Hello, Carole, and thank you for the welcome!

And yes, our user names can be mysterious sometimes, can’t they? Haha! I remember when I was in grade school and everyone called me by my nickname, Gerrie, and on the first day of school every year the teacher would call roll and everytime my name was called the teacher would be scanning the room for a boy! It was awful! and when the teacher said “Gerrie? That’s a *boy’s *name,” I was simply mortified! After all, wasn’t it plain I was a girl, in a *dress??!! *This is where I’m *really *grateful so much has changed for girls and women, especially where names are concerned!!

I probably chose “NightRider” because it hides my gender! Haha!!

Anyway, thank you so much for your kind words about St Teresa and her book. I am really looking forward to reading it so I may have more to contemplate as I read your posts, with much deeper comprehension. I know this is going to be an interesting journey, and I am so glad I have such interesting and lovely companions! Thank you, Carole, and many blessings,

Geraldine
 
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DBT:
Hi Teresa -

Sorry, I think we have a BIG misunderstaning here. When I said what I said a couple of posts ago I was talking about ME not YOU. Actually, I was trying to give you a bit of a compliment 🙂 .

I hope that fixes things.
Dear Dave

:o oops, I’m very sorry about that!

I TOTALLY misread what you wrote, I really am so very very sorry Dave, take no notice of me, I’m nothing but an idiot!!

I need to get some sleep and make my brain function again

Anyway, you’re hiding your light under a bushel Dave, you have more of a handle on mystical prayer than you’d care to let on…😉 …don’t sell yourself short, friend.

God Bless you Dave and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
Hi Geraldine,
I probably chose “NightRider” because it hides my gender! Haha!!
That’s why I pictured you as a male, because NightRider suggested to me the Lone Ranger riding on a big white horse with a mask on, championing the cause of justice. 😃

Silly, huh?

As for the terrible time in school, I do understand how sensitive and mortifying it can be. I had a very difficult german maiden name and I used to die when the poor teacher slaughtered it and the whole class roared with laughter. Every new school year! :yup:

Actually, now that Alison has been called away and we cannot continue the thread as it originated, it may be good to begin a new one and discuss some of the things you will be reading. There are many lovely people here to help you and they have a pretty good understanding. Maybe some of the folks from the old Secular Carmelite thread will join in.

I have the feeling we are about ready to close this thread.

Warm regards,
Carole
 
Actually, now that Alison has been called away and we cannot continue the thread as it originated, it may be good to begin a new one and discuss some of the things you will be reading. There are many lovely people here to help you and they have a pretty good understanding. Maybe some of the folks from the old Secular Carmelite thread will join in.

I have the feeling we are about ready to close this thread.

Warm regards,
Carole

[/quote]

Yes, I feel it is time to close this thread.
I have to say that I’m sorry to see such threads degenerate into a bit of a wrangle, because there are many valid viewpoints.
I don’t know how to quote a bit from another post at the same time as quoting this post (pardon my ignorance:o ) but I endorse what Teresa said …“St Teresa writes of her own union with God … all experience God differently in mystical prayer whatever mansion they are in. Her writings give a ‘general’ teaching on mystical prayer … she can tell you certain things … but they cannot and never will be specific to each and every person … one can study her writings all day long and never find an explicit answer [emphasis mine] within her writings to cover what happens to the individual soul”
I can’t speak for what goes on in Secular Order circles, but what Teresa said is certainly true of those belonging to the Second Order (nuns)!
That’s precisely why I see the importance of a variety of good commentators, though I sense you don’t agree with this, Carole, preferring to stick to the original texts.
Commentators can say something helpful to a particular individual that helps them to get a better idea where they are in the scheme of things, and what helps one will not “speak” to another, perhaps.
Surely it is part of God’s design in leading us forward to leave us in, or lead us into a good deal of confusion? Isn’t that the only way we can let go of our self-sufficiency, our comfort zone and go out on the path of faith and trust? Lack of genuine trust in God (not in ourselves and our understanding) is one of the greatest obstacles, says Ruth Burrows. We pay lipservice to it, but the reality is not so readily found because it is scary, especially when we don’t know for sure whether our experiences in prayer are genuine. I do believe it is possible to “read oneself into” a mansion - such are the powers of auto-suggestion. I’ve seen it.
There is only one way to judge the genuineness of prayer - by its fruits. The fruits it should bear are clearly found in the gospels. If they are not apparent it doesn’t matter how many signs we think we see in ourselves from reading the Carmelite Saints’ writings.

An over-preoccupation with reading about it all is unhealthy, IMHO.
I don’t really think I want to get into any more discussions about Carmelite spirituality for the time being or start any threads, so please pardon me if I have offended any of you good people, and I commend you all to God with love and prayers!:bowdown:
 
Some of our sportsmen may enjoy this brief analogy. Assume that you are an avid lover of football, and played all during high school and college. Add to this the many years you watched all of the pro football games on TV and even coached Little League. So many of your friends came to you for instruction on how to understand the game, so you decide it is a noble idea to write a book and share your insights. No doubt whatsoever that this is going to help many people who have only an elementary layman’s idea of the game.

Ah, but match Rob Barrows’ book with another author who is so impassioned with the game that he travels to every team in both leagues, studies personally with all of the coaches and players, and has privileged access to all of their playbooks and tapes.

Although I agree with Alison that commentators are able to share their experience and help us to discover a point of view that was difficult to grasp, can we not discern that their written opinion would embrace only their own limited sphere of expertise?

I had an inspiration to look up something yesterday that I had read in *Teresa of Avila *by Marcelle Auclair. This is what we find in the book’s forward:
All through her life Marcelle Auclair assiduously studied the writings of Teresa of Avila. She admired in her an essentially “modern” woman: inventive, practical, gallant and intrepid, with tremendous organizational capacities, whose genius permitted her to break through the restrictions of her time. Madame Auclair decided to retranslate the saint’s writings and to write her life. With characteristic determination, she attempted to obtain the seemingly impossible (it had never been done before) – an authorization from the Holy See to enter the Carmelite cloisters in Spain and to gather authentic background material for her projected work. The permission was granted. (by Pope Pius XII) On her return to Paris she gave up all her professional obligations and for two years virtually went into retreat, devoting her entire time to the accomplishment of what is no doubt the most vivid existing biography of this great saint.
It is interesting to note that the writer of the forward refers to her as the “great” saint, which was so offensive to another reader on the forum recently.

If ever a book was capable of giving authentic background on St. Teresa, I would admit that this one does, for she examined all of the annals within every cloister which St. Teresa founded, and has shared this precious information in her book. St. Teresa, out of humility and a desire to be hidden for the most part, often avoided naming people and situations, using catch phrases such as, “This saintly gentleman, this holy confessor, I knew a person who …, etc.” Madame Auclair obtained the details.

Her book gives vivid accounts of her conversion to a deeper walk with Christ, the difficulties in making her foundations, some of her mystical experiences, and many unspeakable circumstances connected with her death. We encounter the events of St. Teresa living out her vocation day to day, in a way that is missing entirely in any of her writings. For those who want a practical, but authentic peek into sanctity in action, I highly recommend it. Buzzcut’s site still sells it, and I found that it is much less expensive than Amazon. I have the Image Books’ 1959 copy.

I had to chuckle as I read Springbreeze’s notion that I have all of these books stored on my computer, for it is so untrue, as are some of her other comments by which she analyzed me. It is simply that I have spent so many years in them that whenever something is being discussed, I can remember almost exactly where to find the reference. Many of my pages of extra importance are pinched down, but on the whole, I have the information stored in “internal memory.”

You may wonder about my purpose in sharing this, and I’ll get to it a bit later. This post was my way of agreeing that we may truly find help from commentators, but this help should be considered in the context which it is shared - namely, that it is personal opinion, based on the author’s limitations.
 
Dear Forum Family,

I’m continuing with the inspiration I had to look up a passage in Marcelle Auclair’s book. One of the trials mentioned by St. Teresa in Interior Castle VI:1:3 is something she experienced in this mansion, but she alludes only lightly to its severity.
“There is an outcry by persons a Sister is dealing with and even by those she does not deal with and who, it seems to her, would never even think of her; gossip like the following: “she’s trying to make out she’s a saint; she goes to extremes to deceive the world and bring others to ruin; there are other better Christians who don’t put on all this outward show.” Those she considered her friends turn away from her, and they are the ones who take the largest and most painful bite at her: “that soul has gone astray and is clearly mistaken; a thousand kinds of ridicule and statements like the above.”
In Auclair’s book, I looked up more of this description in Part II, The Wounded Christ, where it states, “The first of her meritorious efforts was the humble willingness to be less acceptable to others; but this was not enough to calm her distress. One day, during the Hours, she heard Our Lord speak for the first time: ‘Serve Me, and do not concern yourself about all that.’

Just reading these holy words caused me to rise like the phoenix from the ashes, and it provided a great burst of energy, as I recalled another saying I read from a certain saint who retorted to satan, “I did not begin this work for you, so therefore, I will not abandon it at your suggestion!”

A bit of background from another chapter:
“More than one hoped that Teresa, guilty of having by her attitude brought the convent of the Incarnation and its prioress into ill repute, would do public penance in the refectory, wearing a habit on which tongues had been sewn ‘in order that the great wickedness of her tongue might be punished.’ She would eat her bread on the floor and would finally be taken away to the prison cell. The whole convent was up in arms; yet thirty of the same nuns were later to follow her whom they would call “Mother Teresa of Jesus.”

These poor nuns of the Incarnation were blinded and driven on to fury by the devil. “This was one of the severest trials I’ve ever suffered in this life.” But she then felt the presence of Christ who reasoned with her, “Remember, Teresa: ‘Thou art mine, and I am thine. . .’ He flooded her with light, and she was comforted.
Why did I look this up? St. Teresa’s ‘point of honour’ that Alison alluded to earlier in the thread was a major stumbling block to growth in perfection. We see in the writing above that St. Teresa refused to defend herself, willing to be less acceptable to others and allow them their own erroneous opinion of her. This was part of her doctrine, and one that I believe is good to explore together as we look deeper into the third mansion. Much of these practical directives can help all of us! As Buzzcut expressed his wonder at how can any of this be practical for him living an ordinary life, it was his comment that prompted me to read these chapters that I’m sharing with you.

Maybe it is providential that we not examine Ruth Burrows book, a) since it is out of print, and b) since Alison has told us she would not be posting anything from it here. We had a thread called Carmelite Spirituality: Poverty of Spirit and detachment. Maybe now we could explore together another section called, Carmelite Spirituality: Humility and self-knowledge.
 
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Joysong:
Dear Forum Family,

I’m continuing with the inspiration I had to look up a passage in Marcelle Auclair’s book. One of the trials mentioned by St. Teresa in Interior Castle VI:1:3 is something she experienced in this mansion, but she alludes only lightly to its severity.

In Auclair’s book, I looked up more of this description in Part II, The Wounded Christ, where it states, “The first of her meritorious efforts was the humble willingness to be less acceptable to others; but this was not enough to calm her distress. One day, during the Hours, she heard Our Lord speak for the first time: ‘Serve Me, and do not concern yourself about all that.’

Just reading these holy words caused me to rise like the phoenix from the ashes, and it provided a great burst of energy, as I recalled another saying I read from a certain saint who retorted to satan, “I did not begin this work for you, so therefore, I will not abandon it at your suggestion!”

A bit of background from another chapter:

Why did I look this up? St. Teresa’s ‘point of honour’ that Alison alluded to earlier in the thread was a major stumbling block to growth in perfection. We see in the writing above that St. Teresa refused to defend herself, willing to be less acceptable to others and allow them their own erroneous opinion of her. This was part of her doctrine, and one that I believe is good to explore together as we look deeper into the third mansion. Much of these practical directives can help all of us! As Buzzcut expressed his wonder at how can any of this be practical for him living an ordinary life, it was his comment that prompted me to read these chapters that I’m sharing with you.

Maybe it is providential that we not examine Ruth Burrows book, a) since it is out of print, and b) since Alison has told us she would not be posting anything from it here. We had a thread called Carmelite Spirituality: Poverty of Spirit and detachment. Maybe now we could explore together another section called, Carmelite Spirituality: Humility and self-knowledge.
Dear Carole

Why not be direct and say what you think about me instead of use a Saints writings to do it for you? You have my email address and can make full use of that instead of using this thread.

If I am mistaken in how I perceive your writing here, I apologise.

Thank you for your comments

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
Dear friends

Since this thread has fallen into problems. I have decided not to discuss Carmelite issues, the first reason being that the dominant approach is one of ‘text book’ and the second is it seems there is no room to amicably disagree.

Thank you I have up until now enjoyed discussing Carmel

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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Joysong:
This was part of her doctrine, and one that I believe is good to explore together as we look deeper into the third mansion.
Wait a mo … I know this thread started as a lights off lights on discussion, but can we please go back to the First Mansion and start our next thread there?
 
Dear Teresa,
To change the subject a moment - do any of you think there would be any interest in a completely separate thread about the Third mansion??? It doesn’t really fit in this thread with a perhaps off-putting title? Is it worth discussing at all?

What she says about the 3rd Mansion, for example, is excellent, and really brought home to me how strongly St Teresa wanted people to move on from there! RB calls it making our home in the railway station. She describes so well how people feel they have arrived, and maybe self-satisfied in this Mansion, and how what St Teresa calls “honour” (a 16th century Spanish cultural thing, really, though we know what she means) is such a huge obstacle to progress.
The above are excerpts from separate posts made by Alison. What I have done, as I realized once again that she is backing out of further posting on this, is to further a discussion regarding what she posted above. The keenest place where I see the doctrine of “honour” being lived by St. Teresa is the one I quoted from both books, and which I am willing to open up in a separate thread for the benefit of the many wonderful people who are exploring it.

As for your point that I should “say what you think about me,” I have already done so in my very brief statement that you have analyzed me incorrectly. It wouldn’t be the first time anyone has done so, and it is quite easy for anyone to do, I’m sure, since they have only a bunch of words on an internet forum with which to go on! It does not disturb me, and I have no intention of defending it and prolonging this thread drift, since our participants are often embarrassed at these types of things.

If I felt it was important, I would have sent you an e-mail. As for your reason for leaving: “the first reason being that the dominant approach is one of ‘text book,’” we are all ordinary people, Teresa, who learn by ordinary means, most of which is to read, meditate, and then apply it to our daily lives. It seems strange to me that we would not use a textbook, unless of course we are angels who have no need of one. Restating your comment, once again, indicates how deeply you have misunderstood me.

Carole
 
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