Ruth Burrows and Carmelite mystical prayer

[springbreeze]

ATeNumquam:

Yes, I was in Carmel when Pope John Paul II was elected and the Carmelite grapevine got the word out at once that he had that connection to Carmel.
He wrote his doctoral thesis on some aspect of St John of the Cross - sorry, can’t remember the exact topic, but we had a copy of it, and I read some, but I confess I don’t remember much about what he said (my memory is lousy and it was a bit too scholarly and esoteric for me!)
He wrote beautiful things about the contemplative life. He made no secret of his love for Carmel, and his addresses to the Order were beautiful.

Dear Atenumquam

When I first started my formation in Carmel I found out that the Pope was TOC. When I wore my scapular for the first time I felt privelaged that I would not only share in the prayer of the order, but also the prayers of the Pope within that order.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[cookiemcd]

our Pope spent hours and hours in front of the Blessed Sacrament, and judging from his holy countenance as he prayed, they felt he was gifted with mystical prayer.

This is my first post so please forgive my inexperienced note. But I was watching a story regarding our Pope in his final days and I heard a phrase I was not familiar with. I heard he spent much of his time toward the end of his life in Carmelite mystical prayer. I was intrigued by this and wanted to find out more about what our Holy Father was doing in his last days.
I am a complete novice and found this beautiful site by being called to look up the phrase online. I have read this entire thread and have been brought to tears and such feelings of love tonight. I wanted to thank you all in my most humblest way for helping me tonight to reflect on our Father and to thank him for bringing me to this wonderful community. God Bless You, Laurie

 

[Joysong]

Dear Laurie,

I am a complete novice and found this beautiful site by being called to look up the phrase online. I have read this entire thread and have been brought to tears and such feelings of love tonight. I wanted to thank you all in my most humblest way for helping me tonight to reflect on our Father and to thank him for bringing me to this wonderful community. God Bless You, Laurie

And you have brought a tear of joy to my eye also, as I reflect on the absolutely marvelous ways of God to bring you here! May I be the first to welcome you and I pray that God will bless you and continue to draw you to Himself with bonds of deepest love. You will find HIm here at *Catholic Answers Forum, *Laurie. There is a beautiful sense of His presence in many of the posters here, that I have not found anywhere else. I have the feeling this may be the beginnings of something very special for you!

Carole

 

[springbreeze]

Dear Laurie

Hello to you, Laurie and might I echo Joysong’s words of welcome to you.

It is lovely to have you here, there are many many beautiful souls on this forum and I am looking forward to reading all that you post here.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you and those you love

Teresa

 

[ATeNumquam]

A big welcome from me too, Laurie!
Isn’t it amazing how we all got onto these forums - your road in was quite unusual!

Well, Carole, since Ruth Burrows’ book seems to be out of print according to Amazon (though, being a librarian, I looked up another database which said it WAS in print, but it could be wrong because surely Amazon would know??) maybe I can quote some bits (not tonight!)
The whole business about the 3rd Mansion and what holds people up there is so important. I don’t think there is a lot of difference in what constitutes an obstacle for a Carmelite as opposed to a lay person - it’s the same old human nature at work!
Maybe I’ll get around to quoting some chunks of RB on this Mansion because she makes it so crystal clear (to my way of thinking) and it’s my guess that there are so many good, observant, prayerful people on these forums who are camped there! Maybe, as St Teresa suggests herself, it would be an unusually generous person who wouldn’t spend a fair while there anyway. She says we can dispose ourselves to go beyond it, even if what lies ahead is a gift from God we can’t actually earn.
Midnight again!:yawn:
God bless, fellow posters, “old” and newcomers!

 

[DBT]

Hi Laurie -

I’d like to join everyone else here to welcome you to this forum . . . and this thread. It’s very good to have you here

Dave.

 

[DBT]

Joysong:

These monks tonight said they felt a special presence that they dared not intrude, when they saw the Pope in this prayer. I doubt we will wait very long for his canonization.

This brings me back to St. Therese and the wondrous extent of her hiddenness. How is it that one with so exalted a state of love could elude the chance gaze of her community upon her countenance, which would enable them to suspect her deep holiness — except that her Divine Spouse honored her request for hiddenness to such a degree that none were able to observe it. That too, is amazing! When one is in a mystical state of prayer, their face will not be able to hide the inner reality. [Moses, in his humility, wore a veil.]

Yes, I believe there was a great interior “hiddeness” in our very public Pope, which was probably just one of the many reasons why he so admired St. Therese.

I heard a similiar story about him as well on one of the recent news accounts. One of the American Cardinals (can’t remember which one) was describing how he accidently witnessed a mystical encounter. The Cardinal was escourting the Pope on whatever official business they were doing when the Pope caught sight of the Blessed Sacrament in one of the side chapels. The Pope “asked” if it would be OK for a brief moment of prayer before resuming their activity.

As the Pope knelt before the Blessed Sacrament, the Cardinal began to follow, with the intent of kneeling behind the Pope. He immeadiately stopped, however, sensing that he was invading a very sacred space. I believe the Cardinal said he felt like he was in the midst of a Moses and the burning bush kind of moment. After a couple of minutes, an aid roused the Pope from the very deep place he must have been and they resumed their activity.

In my mind at least, everything that has been discussed in this thread was encapsulated in that briefest of moments before the Blessed Sacrament. To quote Elizabeth of the Trinity, “Abyss calls upon abyss . . .”

 

[ATeNumquam]

That’s a beautiful account about the Pope, DBT!

I’ve heard a few similar.

To change the subject a moment - do any of you think there would be any interest in a completely separate thread about the Third mansion??? It doesn’t really fit in this thread with a perhaps off-putting title? Is it worth discussing at all? Even if you have left that mansion behind, do you think some different posters might learn something useful?

Feedback, please, either way!

Alison

 

[NightRider]

Hi ATeNumquam, Joysong, Springbreeze and everyone!

I am simply quite moved by this thread. I know nothing about contemplative prayer and very, very little about Carmel, but I found every post on this thread fascinating and beautiful. I would like to know more–where would one begin? What is a good first text to read? I have read so very little about Carmelite tradition but I am feeling drawn. Suggestions, anyone?

Thank you and God bless everyone!

Geraldine

 

[ATeNumquam]

NightRider:

Hi ATeNumquam, Joysong, Springbreeze and everyone!

I am simply quite moved by this thread. I know nothing about contemplative prayer and very, very little about Carmel, but I found every post on this thread fascinating and beautiful. I would like to know more–where would one begin? What is a good first text to read? I have read so very little about Carmelite tradition but I am feeling drawn. Suggestions, anyone?

Thank you and God bless everyone!

Geraldine

Hi there Geraldine - nice to meet you here!

I’m hoping the Secular Order people can suggest something!
I tentatively suggest getting to meet St Teresa herself first by reading her Life (i.e. her autobiography), which also contains a lot about prayer. This is where I started way back before I became a Catholic, and she captivated me!
If you are looking for a general over-all view of Carmelite spirituality that is pretty solid (and I know you have a scholarly mind!) one suggestion is “The Fire Within” by Thomas Dubay.
For something more once-over-lightly - well, I don’t know right now!
Help - OCDS!
Alison

 

[NightRider]

ATeNumquam:

Hi there Geraldine - nice to meet you here!

I’m hoping the Secular Order people can suggest something!
I tentatively suggest getting to meet St Teresa herself first by reading her Life (i.e. her autobiography), which also contains a lot about prayer. This is where I started way back before I became a Catholic, and she captivated me!
If you are looking for a general over-all view of Carmelite spirituality that is pretty solid (and I know you have a scholarly mind!) one suggestion is “The Fire Within” by Thomas Dubay.
For something more once-over-lightly - well, I don’t know right now!
Help - OCDS!
Alison

Thank you, Alison, and nice to meet you here, too! I am going to see if I can order St Teresa’s *Life *and Dubay’s *The Fire Within *at my nearby library so I can begin reading. It is nice to have a place to start! Many blessings,

Geraldine

 

[DBT]

Hi Geraldine and welcome!

I’d like to echo Alison’s suggestions . . . especially Fire Within. For reasons I really can’t explain here, I feel I was led to that book about 4 years ago and it helped “ignite” a period of intense searching that is still going on within me. Fr. Dubay is a wonderful guide and I credit his book for getting me to even consider whether or not I had a calling as a Secular Carmelite.

 

[Joysong]

Hi Alison,

To change the subject a moment - do any of you think there would be any interest in a completely separate thread about the Third mansion??? It doesn’t really fit in this thread with a perhaps off-putting title? Is it worth discussing at all? Even if you have left that mansion behind, do you think some different posters might learn something useful?
Feedback, please, either way!

Anything written by a saint to help people grow in prayer and holiness is worth sharing, for there are so many (20,000+) members who come here, not to mention thousands of guests, looking for solid helps to feed their spirits as they hunger for God.

Since both saints were specifically raised up as Doctors of the Church, because of their charism for teaching in full truth and showing us the way in prayer, I think any of their writings are worthy of special treatment.

Since the third mansion is common to most, and since you have insight from RB’s book describing it in layman’s language, I have no doubt that God will inspire you to begin, and bless the rest of us who interact, so that His truth and His ways may be more fully known to us.

It might save you a lot of typing time, Alison, if you have a scanner. You can scan her book pages into a file and then recopy it here on the forum.

We are all so appreciative of your kindness in doing this, and will look forward to reading it.

With a prayer for your new thread,
Carole

 

[springbreeze]

Dear friends

A wonderful idea Alison!

I think it would be helpful to begin at the beginning and look at that the first mansion and onwards.

We don’t start to read a book half way through and hope to understand all of it by never reading the beginning. For those who deem themselves to be at the third mansion or even further, it may seem tiresome to begin at the beginning but personally I think the analysis should be all inclusive so that all can benefit from this exploration.

Personally I find the beginning of anything most exciting and seeing as we all eventually return to our beginning, God, then the beginning is where we may like to start.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[Joysong]

Hello, Geraldine,

You will laugh, but when we met on another thread, I pictured you as a man. What a lovely surprise to learn otherwise! It is so good to learn people’s names to put to rest these confusions, and “Geraldine,” it is wonderful to see how God is working in these threads — I welcome you wholeheartedly!

ATeNumquam:

I tentatively suggest getting to meet St Teresa herself first by reading her Life (i.e. her autobiography), which also contains a lot about prayer. This is where I started way back before I became a Catholic, and she captivated me!
If you are looking for a general over-all view of Carmelite spirituality that is pretty solid (and I know you have a scholarly mind!) one suggestion is “The Fire Within” by Thomas Dubay.

Like Alison, I too, chanced by accident to find St. Teresa of Avila’s Life in my neighbor’s spiritual library, and that was my beginning in learning about prayer. St. Teresa doesn’t concentrate upon Carmel therein, as she does elsewhere, for she simply wrote about her own life and how God brought her to Himself.

Her autobiography is a treasure of information for anyone reading it, whether or not the person develops an attraction to the Carmelite vocation. She explodes into moments of prayer, and also identifies with much of human nature, which makes her very warm to read. As for Father Dubay, I have a couple of his books, though not the one Alison mentioned, but he is more of a theologian writing in textbook fashion. It would not do to begin there, at least until you have fully digested her autobiography and some of her other writings. You will find that many, many authors quote her, so having this background will be very useful in discerning error.

God’s peace and joy,
Carole

 

[springbreeze]

Dear friends

A wonderful idea Alison!

I think it would be helpful to begin at the beginning and look at that the first mansion and onwards.

We don’t start to read a book half way through and hope to understand all of it by never reading the beginning. For those who deem themselves to be at the third mansion or even further, it may seem tiresome to begin at the beginning but personally I think the analysis should be all inclusive so that all can benefit from this exploration.

Personally I find the beginning of anything most exciting and seeing as we all eventually return to our beginning, God, then the beginning is where we may like to start.

The title of the thread is important because not everyone is familiar with the term ‘mansion’.

I am looking forward to your thread in any case.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[Joysong]

Dear Teresa and Alison,

Springbreeze:

I think it would be helpful to begin at the beginning and look at that the first mansion and onwards.

It may be that Ruth Burrows did not write about the first or second mansions. I had the sense from Alison that RB’s book focused more on the language and terminology of the later mansions which many people could find mysterious and hard to understand.

So if you, Teresa, or Dave, or anyone else feels inspired to take the exposition of the Interior Castle to the beginning, I join my prayer to yours for discernment as to whether to start a new thread.

 

[DBT]

I just did a quick google search and came upon this brief summary of Teresa’s mansions:

www.laermita.org/mansions.html

I only briefly scanned through this so I hope it’s an accurate representation. Hopefully it will serve as a kind of “cliff notes” to St. Teresa and help us “see” ourselves in her way of thinking.

Clarification:
If I’m reading this correctly, the left column of the chart is a summary of St. Teresa’s mansions. The right column of the chart represents the author of this web page’s interpretation of the mansions and some personal reflections.

 

[springbreeze]

Joysong:

Dear Teresa and Alison,

It may be that Ruth Burrows did not write about the first or second mansions. I had the sense from Alison that RB’s book focused more on the language and terminology of the later mansions which many people could find mysterious and hard to understand.

Ah I see Carole. I presumed RB tackled it all! I honestly think unless a person experiences the different mansions, they are going to struggle to fully understand them.

So if you, Teresa, or Dave, or anyone else feels inspired to take the exposition of the Interior Castle to the beginning, I join my prayer to yours for discernment as to whether to start a new thread.

God bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[Joysong]

Dear Dave,

I looked at the link, and see once again, where human interpreters give a meaning that is not entirely true, my guess being that they have not experienced it, and approach her writings with a textbook analysis.

You and I have shared privately some ideas on this, and solely for the sake of those who read the link, I think it is wise to suggest that they go to the horse’s mouth, so to speak — and not believe all they read, unless it is in the light of what St. Teresa wrote. Of course, this can be very confusing, due to language barriers, and lack of experience with which to understand it.

For instance, the link portraying mansions 5 and 6 are not giving a true picture.

Here the person begins the prayer of union in which all the faculties of the soul are suspended. Teresa says it is like God becomes the cocoon in which the person dies. It is a period of darkness, but yet the soul is certain beyond doubt that it is with and in the Lord. During this period the soul grows more in love of neighbor, humility and faithfulness to prayer and the Lord.

I would have preferred this author used the word “experienced” the prayer of union, rather than “begins,” which for many is a momentary one-time-only prayer experience, signifying entry into the mansion. We read in this mansion, that the person, through the supernatural effects of the experience, dies to self and becomes a butterfly. It is not something that takes place continuously in prayer, and misleads the reader entirely, believing it is some sort of stage rather than a singular mystical gift of prayer that lasts only a brief moment. The 5th mansion describes the prayer experience itself, and its authentic effects, i.e., the fruit of it. Many have a problem differentiating between the two.

Here Teresa speaks of spiritual betrothal. It takes place during a rapture, when the soul is drawn out of its senses. -skip- The results of this mansion are: a deep knowledge of God and self, humility, rejection of all earthly things that are not needed to promote love of the Beloved, and a joy so great that the soul cannot resist shouting it from the housetops.

This, too is a distortion. It leaves the reader believing that after this experience the person walks around in sublime interior joy throughout the time they are in this mansion. Absolutely false, for in this mansion, after the gift of rapture, they undergo the passive trials of the Dark Night, which keeps the soul in a fairly frequent experience of the “distress” in which St. Teresa says she continuously found herself. These are the divine wounds of love, in which spiritual pain co-exists with a wondrous delight, and which can be so intense as to cause one’s death. I pray no person who reads the description above, will get the notion that these souls walk around in an ecstatic joy. It pertains solely to the experience of rapture alone, and not to the stage that one is in afterwards, which does not admit of perpetual joy. Stage of development is so often confused with the supernatural gift, that it is no wonder these authors cause confusion.

I’m sorry to digress, but I get really upset with these descriptions, and it is not fair to the reader! May St. Teresa from her place in heaven guide us and inspire us with the Truth.

Your sister in Carmel,
Carole