S.F. Catholic Church priest bans girls as altar servers

[ProVobis]

I have known a number of older Catholics who would agree that “diversity” in fact is not of the Holy Spirit – and would welcome a return to the non-“diverse” days when in the same small city there would be the “Polish church,” the “French church,” the “Irish church,” the “Portuguese church,” and so on. I would have thought we’ve gone beyond that.

Actually a lot of those churches have closed or merged with other churches, where it’s not uncommon to have bi-lingual parishes now where the groups (Anglos and Hispanics, for example) never meet. Same result. Same hostilities.

 

[SWolf]

I have known a number of older Catholics who would agree that “diversity” in fact is not of the Holy Spirit – and would welcome a return to the non-“diverse” days when in the same small city there would be the “Polish church,” the “French church,” the “Irish church,” the “Portuguese church,” and so on. I would have thought we’ve gone beyond that.

I see Korean Churches, Chaldean Churches, Polish Churches, etc. I, a German-American, have walked into all of these sticking out like a sore thumb and no dirty looks ever came my way. I see it as a wonderful display of culture within the framework of Mother Church.

What’s the point of this post?.

 

[Prodigal_40s]

I see Korean Churches, Chaldean Churches, Polish Churches, etc. I, a German-American, have walked into all of these sticking out like a sore thumb and no dirty looks ever came my way. I see it as a wonderful display of culture within the framework of Mother Church.

What’s the point of this post?.

I should have added that nationality is of no consequence to me or any other Catholic. The clue is in the name CATHOLIC.

 

[KSU]

That was not, by definition, rash judgment. If however the statement offended you, then I deeply apologize for it and will try and be more careful.

I never said it was rash judgment, I said it was uncharitable to alter boys and their parents, when you gratuitously said, “… we put the altar boys in white dresses to serve”. This (which you forgot to include in your above reply) is where I used the words “rash judgment”:

QUOTE You did not apply 2478 to yourself in order to avoid rash judgment when, straight out of left field, you accused me of being “uncharitable”. You were referring to my use of the term “Ad nauseam” in my discussion with otjm concerning his endless use of CARA statistics in an attempt to cast doubt on the Vatican’s belief in the value of alter boys. You also were referring to my use of the words “dissident practice” in reference to the practice of those clerics who choose to ignore the norm for alter servers prescribed by the Vatican. A practice, BTW, which you said you welcome. END QUOTE

 

[otjm]

You were referring to my use of the term “Ad nauseam” in my discussion with otjm concerning his endless use of CARA statistics in an attempt to cast doubt on the Vatican’s belief in the value of alter boys. .

I don’t intend to get in the middle of your discussion except to note that I did not try or intend to cast “doubt” on the Vatican’s belief about a correlation between altar serving and priesthood. What I was and still am trying to do is show that it is correlation, not causation, and too many people are taking the Vatican’s statement as causation.

Should it be that whoever made the statement from the Vatican considers it to be causation, then I certainly would challenge that. Nothing in anything I have said would indicate that I do not think there is correlation; I quoted CARA’s statistic from a recent interview of recently ordained priests which showed that 80% of them had been altar boys. We don’t need to make straw men and try knocking them down - OK?

 

[otjm]

I never said it was rash judgment, I said it was uncharitable to alter boys and their parents, when you gratuitously said, “… we put the altar boys in white dresses to serve”. This (which you forgot to include in your above reply) is where I used the words “rash judgment”:

QUOTE You did not apply 2478 to yourself in order to avoid rash judgment when, straight out of left field, you accused me of being “uncharitable”. You were referring to my use of the term “Ad nauseam” in my discussion with otjm concerning his endless use of CARA statistics in an attempt to cast doubt on the Vatican’s belief in the value of alter boys. You also were referring to my use of the words “dissident practice” in reference to the practice of those clerics who choose to ignore the norm for alter servers prescribed by the Vatican. A practice, BTW, which you said you welcome. END QUOTE

pnewton apologized. Keep on the same path and the thread will get shut down. It has been an interesting thread with a range of opinions; let’s get back on track?

 

[otjm]

I should have added that nationality is of no consequence to me or any other Catholic. The clue is in the name CATHOLIC.

Well, again, not having been to Northern Ireland, I can’t speak to how many nationalities are there; but ProVobis spoke to matters in the US in post 470; and given some recent police incidents in the US, nationality and race have been in the center square again.
Again, we are wandering off topic a bit; it appears that the great majority, if not the vast majority of parishes use altar girls as well as altar boys.

And while ProVobis and I might disagree (I think one of the compelling reasons for the separation of Hispanics and others in the US is specifically due to a desire for hearing the Mass in their native tongue), the reality is that there is a separation based on language, and culture.

All of which is off topic.

 

[Robert_Bay]

Moderator Notice

Please charitably discuss the issues, not each other nor how each other post

 

[Prodigal_40s]

Well, again, not having been to Northern Ireland, I can’t speak to how many nationalities are there; but ProVobis spoke to matters in the US in post 470; and given some recent police incidents in the US, nationality and race have been in the center square again.
Again, we are wandering off topic a bit; it appears that the great majority, if not the vast majority of parishes use altar girls as well as altar boys.

And while ProVobis and I might disagree (I think one of the compelling reasons for the separation of Hispanics and others in the US is specifically due to a desire for hearing the Mass in their native tongue),** the reality is that there is a separation based on language, and culture.

All of which is off topic.**

You’re absolutely right. Separation based on language and culture have absolutely nothing to do with being Catholic.

However introducing altar girls is something that contravenes official direction from the Holy See.

 

[KSU]

I don’t intend to get in the middle of your discussion except to note that I did not try or intend to cast “doubt” on the Vatican’s belief about a correlation between altar serving and priesthood. What I was and still am trying to do is show that it is correlation, not causation, and too many people are taking the Vatican’s statement as causation.

Should it be that whoever made the statement from the Vatican considers it to be causation, then I certainly would challenge that. Nothing in anything I have said would indicate that I do not think there is correlation; I quoted CARA’s statistic from a recent interview of recently ordained priests which showed that 80% of them had been altar boys. We don’t need to make straw men and try knocking them down - OK?

I’m lost, ot. What is the difference between the correlation of alter boys and priests, as we all agree is behind the Vatican’s directive, and “causation” which you say is an error? Causation of what?

I don’t think you are you are denying that an increase in alter boys (i.e., less alter girls who displace boys) increases the chances of more priests.

Believe me, ot, I may be dense, but I am not making any argument, straw man or otherwise. I am not even disagreeing with you; I can’t because I don’t understand what the argument, if any, is about.

 

[ProVobis]

And while ProVobis and I might disagree (I think one of the compelling reasons for the separation of Hispanics and others in the US is specifically due to a desire for hearing the Mass in their native tongue), the reality is that there is a separation based on language, and culture.

The hostility is probably exacerbated by “we’re subsidizing them” attitudes prevalent within parishes. The language and culture differences will no doubt continue, if not get worse. We’re simply not assimilating other cultures into the American one anymore. My bad for making these observations instead of praying or listening to the gospel.

That said, from what I’ve seen, both sides have similar girl-boy issues when it comes to serving, Mass attendance, etc. A strange unity, if you will.

 

[SWolf]

The hostility is probably exacerbated by “we’re subsidizing them” attitudes prevalent within parishes. The language and culture differences will no doubt continue, if not get worse. We’re simply not assimilating other cultures into the American one anymore.

Ten years ago I would see this as a bad thing, but I don’t anymore. The close-knit communities that have not assimilated into mainstream culture seem to be the only ones with intact families and a decent faith life anymore.

 

[pnewton]

Ten years ago I would see this as a bad thing, but I don’t anymore. The close-knit communities that have not assimilated into mainstream culture seem to be the only ones with intact families and a decent faith life anymore.

If by “not assimilated” you mean allow girl altar servers, then your perspective is different than mine, where we have an active spiritual faith and girl altar servers. Maybe this is a regional issue, or a case of confirmation bias.

Assimilation is a juggling act. We are called to be light to the world and salt to the world. We must assimilate in some way to do this. Yet we must do so without losing our saltiness. I do not envy bishops the task of shepherding the Church in this day of exponentially fast evolving culture.

 

[Prodigal_40s]

I wonder how many Catholics think the church needs to be “rethought and reformulated to being the Church up to date”. I also wonder if any Catholic has heard this before?

 

[otjm]

You’re absolutely right. Separation based on language and culture have absolutely nothing to do with being Catholic.

However introducing altar girls is something that contravenes official direction from the Holy See.

The official direction of Rome is that girls are permitted to serve. Rome also said that there is an historical fact that boys have served and that out of the boys who have served, vocations have come. Nothing I have said contradicts that, nor anything that CARA has stated in their research.

There is a correlation between serving and vocation; there is also a correlation between Adoration and vocation. And there are a multiple of other correlations.

There would also appear to be a correlation between the drop in the number of people attending Mass regularly and vocations.

You want more vocations? Get more families back active in the Church. You want more families active? Get involved in the New Evangelization.

 

[otjm]

I wonder how many Catholics think the church needs to be “rethought and reformulated to being the Church up to date”. I also wonder if any Catholic has heard this before?

About as many on one end of the spectrum as there are on the other end of the spectrum who think that the Church of 1950 needed absolutely nothing, because it was perfect.

 

[McCall1981]

An interesting article on this subject:

Why a former altar girl changed her mind about boy-only servers

ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/US.php?id=11656

 

[Prodigal_40s]

The official direction of Rome is that girls are permitted to serve. Rome also said that there is an historical fact that boys have served and that out of the boys who have served, vocations have come. Nothing I have said contradicts that, nor anything that CARA has stated in their research.

There is a correlation between serving and vocation; there is also a correlation between Adoration and vocation. And there are a multiple of other correlations.

There would also appear to be a correlation between the drop in the number of people attending Mass regularly and vocations.

You want more vocations? Get more families back active in the Church. You want more families active? Get involved in the New Evangelization.

That’s the key word isn’t it? This was due to fewer boys going into service in certain places and was requested on that basis; it was in Northern Ireland anyway. However the Vatican encourages altar boys. Undeniable Fact.
The rest of your post is irrelevant

 

[Prodigal_40s]

About as many on one end of the spectrum as there are on the other end of the spectrum who think that the Church of 1950 needed absolutely nothing, because it was perfect.

No idea what point you’re making

 

[pnewton]

An interesting article on this subject:

Why a former altar girl changed her mind about boy-only servers

ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/US.php?id=11656

I found the most critical point in her story was:

““No one really corrected me,” she said”

No one corrected a girl and told her she could not be a priest. I find that to be the point of fault. I would hope that all parishes who have girl altar servers are clear on that fact. I doesn’t take much to clear that issue up.