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Corki
Guest
The link in the original post actual says that the priests decision is tied to a broader father-son program. Bringing the fathers more into the practice of their faith is a a good reason.
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casslean
Guest
This does not address the issue here. The Catholic Church does not have a monopoly on condemning the institutionalized abuse and exploitation of women, and such condemnation does not in and of itself move us any nearer the position that Catholic Church recognizes and appreciates the value and equal dignity of girls and women, as taught in their own Catechism.
We have theological basis to deny women from entering the priesthood. We have no such theological basis to deny them from any other ministry. To do so is discriminatory and is not in the best interest of the Church.
Because other than some poorly formed theories based on outdated stereotypes, there is nothing to suggest letting girls serve on the altar was the cause of men leaving the church.
Why is it women and girls are expected to step back and step down because men can’t take personal responsibility for their own faith obligations?
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Corki
Guest
What is your basis for determining what is in the “best interest of the Church”, specifically what is in the best interest of the parish in question? Discrimination is not always bad; unjust discrimination is. There is nothing unjust about this idea of male altar servers.
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casslean
Guest
The best interest of the Church is served by creating an atmosphere where people feel welcome, accepted, and valued. That’s what attracts people and keeps people. As someone who has to constantly argue about why I want to be Catholic, I can tell you the Church is not seen as welcome or accepting.
The definition of unjust is “not based on or behaving according to what is morally right or fair.” Girls are perfectly capable of serving on the altar, and there is theological basis for denying them the opportunity to do so. There is no solid evidence to show that girls serving on the altar has caused fewer boys to join the priesthood. What, then, is the moral justification to say that excluding them is right?
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tafan
Guest
It was not intended to address the main issue, I thought I made it clear it was intended as one possible answer as to how you should approach the topic of the Church’s attitude about women with your professional friends.
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tafan
Guest
For what its worth: I have always discouraged my daughters from being altar servers (to the point that they never bothered to ask to do so) and yet the two grown ones are exceedingly successful young professional women. I don’t think I set them back too much.
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casslean
Guest
It doesn’t address the issues they raise. How do I counter their belief that the Church does not place the same value on their girls as it does on boys when it excludes those same girls from activities, and the most cogent explanation offered is that their presence might make the boys uncomfortable?
If the Church believes and promotes the equal dignity of all, why isn’t the remedy to educate the boys, and not exclude the girls?
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Corki
Guest
But what are **your **credentials for asserting that this particular path of action is not in the best interest of the Church. The Vatican and the pastor of this parish have a different view. If you want to make a categorical statement like the one I bolded, you need to have something to back it up with that would make anyone believe you over the actual Catholic authorities. What you have presented here is just your observations and opinions.
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casslean
Guest
There is “Catholic authority” saying that only boys on the altar is better or worse. The fact that the Vatican allowed girls in the first place indicates the official position is that girls on the altar are not harmful, and that it is not intrinsically better for the Church to have boys only.
The parishes who decide to have boys only are making that decision based on their “observations and opinions”. there is no teaching or evidence that supports the decision to exclude girls. It is a personal decision of the priest based on their opinion. I can offer my “observations and opinions” as to the effect that has on the perception of the Church. I think we can all agree a negative perception of the Church is not in its best interest.
If you want to dismiss my position just because I’m not a priest, feel free.
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Sy_Noe
Guest
Clearly you missed my point that it’s one way to serve but that’s ok there were other Catholics who seemed to have understood. I’m clear from the posts that there appears to be not just one school of thought on this in which Catholics agree,The very actions performed when serving at the altar imply inspiration for vocations to the priesthood. Since nuns can’t be priests…
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PTL
Guest
Applauding Rev. Joseph Illo !! 
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tafan
Guest
How to address it: as you said yourself, the Church does not exclude altar girls, it simply does not require it. As it does not require boys to be allowed to server.
A good explanation is here:
catholicexchange.com/canon-law-and-altar-girls
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PTL
Guest
Applauding Rev. Joseph Illo!!
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Sy_Noe
Guest
I’ve noticed that somewhat too about EMHC at parishes I’ve attended and actually maybe even a little more so with the female lectors. Most of the ushers are older too though mostly older gentlemen from my experience. But at one parish I’ve attended I noticed some young teenage girls who went around with the baskets to begin the passing of the baskets and then to gather the baskets afterwards. So I agree the CC needs to encourage not discourage and involve the youth more regardless of gender.I really don’t think that we should discourage anyone, male or female from getting more involved in giving something back to their church. It’s a good thing for any young person to do, it teaches them to have some responsibility and discipline and brings them closer to their faith.
We have both male and female altar servers, including an elderly man with Tourettes (who tends to repeat or anticipate what the priest is about to say) and a young lad with Down’s Syndrome. We all know that girls can’t go on to be a Deacon or a Priest, but they can be a reader, a Eucharistic Minister, a member of the choir, a musician or an altar server - or indeed, they can join a religious order!
Our EMs are virtually all older or elderly ladies and if we don’t bring more young girls into a service role at Mass, where will we find the next generation? It’s a significant commitment.
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Denise1957
Guest
Regarding the idea that not having altar girls would be negatively viewed (by non-Catholics, I assume), why should a priest base his decision about altar girls on the idea that non-Catholics wouldn’t like it? Generally, decisions by the priest are based on what is good for the his parishioners, parish life, and a view to the future. Decisions aren’t generally based on the perceptions of non-Catholics, IMO. Also, I don’t think that all non-Catholics will be distressed about seeing only boys serve at the altar. In fact, I think that very few non-Catholics would be upset about not having girls at the altar, IMO.
Also, the decision of a priest to not allow girls to serve at the altar is based on his authority, as well as his opinion.
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Corki
Guest
Yes, you can offer your opinion but you can’t categorically state that it is bad for the Church if a given parish decides not to exercise any given legitimate option at Mass. That’s why there are options. It’s up to the priest to decide. Yes, his opinion plays into it but also his experience at the parish and throughout his priesthood are factored into a decision.
The Church also backs his “opinion” and doesn’t back yours. That should tell you something. The Vatican *allows *dioceses to include girls but directs them to *encourage *boys and to put in place support organizations for the boys.
A negative perception of the Church is sometimes not in its best interest but often the negative perceptions of the Church are founded on things the Church is doing right that are counter-cultural. The Catholic Church does not decide on her practices based on public opinion.
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phil19034
Guest
I think we all need to take a step back for a moment and ask why the Church introduced Altar Boys to begin with…?
Before lay Altar servers were allowed, all servers were seminarians. It was part of their priestly studies.
When larger parishes started to lack seminarians and the number of priests per parish began to shrink, then then allowed the laity to assist. Altar Boys came into play to replace the missing acolytes (who again where part of the minor orders and seminarians).
Boys were preferred over adult men because the secondary goal was to use the Altar Boy program as a “training ground” and “testing ground” for boys to determine whether they had a calling to be priests. It was also a place where priests were “recruited from.”
Altar girls came into play (1) by parishes doing it on their own without permission and (2) because in some areas the number of Altar Boys was down.
While theologically, there is no issue with Altar Girls, I believe it does detract from using the program as an active priest training and recruitment program. If a parish has both Altar Boy and Girls, then one of three things happens: (1) the priest doesn’t use the program as a group based priestly training program or (2) the priest singles out the boys and the girls are left out or (3) the extra catechizing the servers get is general and not specifically focused on the priesthood.
Personally, I don’t think the whole “I’m a boy and I don’t want to do it because girls do it” is a huge factor and it shouldn’t be a reason to not server or change back to just Altar Boys.
However, I do think we should change to all Altar Boys and turn the program into a priest recruitment program; while at the same time creating a group just for the girls.
Women on the other hand should continue to serve when Altar Boys, acolytes, and the ordained are not able to serve.
As I have mentioned in my other posts, I think we are missing an opportunity with this to attempt to recruit more priests via the Altar Boy program (and nuns by using girl prayer, adoration, and evangelization groups).
Having two different groups for children should be seen as equal treatment. By doing this, we are not saying that boys and girls are not equal, just different.
God Bless
Before lay Altar servers were allowed, all servers were seminarians. It was part of their priestly studies.
When larger parishes started to lack seminarians and the number of priests per parish began to shrink, then then allowed the laity to assist. Altar Boys came into play to replace the missing acolytes (who again where part of the minor orders and seminarians).
Boys were preferred over adult men because the secondary goal was to use the Altar Boy program as a “training ground” and “testing ground” for boys to determine whether they had a calling to be priests. It was also a place where priests were “recruited from.”
Altar girls came into play (1) by parishes doing it on their own without permission and (2) because in some areas the number of Altar Boys was down.
While theologically, there is no issue with Altar Girls, I believe it does detract from using the program as an active priest training and recruitment program. If a parish has both Altar Boy and Girls, then one of three things happens: (1) the priest doesn’t use the program as a group based priestly training program or (2) the priest singles out the boys and the girls are left out or (3) the extra catechizing the servers get is general and not specifically focused on the priesthood.
Personally, I don’t think the whole “I’m a boy and I don’t want to do it because girls do it” is a huge factor and it shouldn’t be a reason to not server or change back to just Altar Boys.
However, I do think we should change to all Altar Boys and turn the program into a priest recruitment program; while at the same time creating a group just for the girls.
Women on the other hand should continue to serve when Altar Boys, acolytes, and the ordained are not able to serve.
As I have mentioned in my other posts, I think we are missing an opportunity with this to attempt to recruit more priests via the Altar Boy program (and nuns by using girl prayer, adoration, and evangelization groups).
Having two different groups for children should be seen as equal treatment. By doing this, we are not saying that boys and girls are not equal, just different.
God Bless
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Kathie_Bondar
Guest
Now why would genitals take precedence over the desire to serve God?
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irishpatrick
Guest
In a 1994 letter of response on this subject, the Vatican did clarify one very important point, as follows:
"It will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar. As is well known, this has led to a reassuring development of priestly vocations. Thus the obligation to support such groups of altar boys will always continue."
If that is not enough, then ask yourself one critical question: Do the presence of girl altar servers lead to an increase oin vocations to the Priesthood?
Remember, Priests bring the Sacraments, which means Priests bring us Jesus Christ. Even if we lose just ONE vocation due to the presence of female altar servers, that is too high a price to pay. Just one.
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irishpatrick
Guest
In a 1994 letter of response on this subject, the Vatican did clarify one very important point, as follows:
"It will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar. As is well known, this has led to a reassuring development of priestly vocations. Thus the obligation to support such groups of altar boys will always continue."
If that is not enough, then ask yourself one critical question: Do the presence of girl altar servers lead to an increase in vocations to the Priesthood?
Remember, Priests bring the Sacraments, which means Priests bring us Jesus Christ. Even if we lose just ONE vocation due to the presence of female altar servers, that is too high a price to pay. Just one.
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