S.F. Catholic Church priest bans girls as altar servers

[Brendan]

Not when the authority is illegitimate. There are many rights those in authority can not take from you, no matter the reason.

Fortunately, we have instructions from the Vatican that provide the necesarry authority for the priest to do this, and clarification that no lay person has a right to serve at the altar, so no rights are being taken away.

 

[KSU]

Fortunately, we have instructions from the Vatican that provide the necesarry authority for the priest to do this, and clarification that no lay person has a right to serve at the altar, so no rights are being taken away.

Of course, but what difference does that make to the free American Catholic church (not to be confused with the Roman Catholic Church in America)?

“The truth is not always the same as the majority decision.”
Pope John Paul II

 

[CHRISTINE77]

In a large city, there are options, so why not find one more conducive to one’s own spiritual needs. I find it ironic that with just one parish in the city doing this that public officials have to stick their nose in, proving to all who will take note that they are not the bastion of diversity they imagine themselves to be.

I agree. The church I had been attending for years suddenly changed priests and the whole church changed. He is very traditional, only boys for altar servers, a formal choir singing latin songs, much of the mass in latin and lots of fancy robes and candles.

It wasn’t for me, so I am now attending a less formal church, with more parishioner participation such as singing, and much better sermons. It was easy for me to change because there are several Catholic churches in my area.

It’s up to the priest how he wants his church to be, and if you don’t like it, go somewhere else.

 

[KSU]

I agree. The church I had been attending for years suddenly changed priests and the whole church changed. He is very traditional, only boys for altar servers, a formal choir singing latin songs, much of the mass in latin and lots of fancy robes and candles.

It wasn’t for me, so I am now attending a less formal church, with more parishioner participation such as singing, and much better sermons. It was easy for me to change because there are several Catholic churches in my area.

It’s up to the priest how he wants his church to be, and if you don’t like it, go somewhere else.

CHRISTINE77, one can understand and perhaps even sympathize with your feelings.

But one must ask, where are our Bishops going with this disunity, and how far will they allow indifference to Vatican directives to go before liturgical differences become theological differences?

The division between Orthodox Jews and Reform Jews can be traced to reaction to the Jewish “Enlightenment” (Haskalah).

The division between liturgically observant Catholics and “not so much” liturgically observant Catholics can be traced to reaction to the Catholic “Enlightenment” (The Spirit of VCII).

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

CHRISTINE77, one can understand and perhaps even sympathize with your feelings.

But one must ask, where are our Bishops going with this disunity, and how far will they allow indifference to Vatican directives to go before liturgical differences become theological differences?

The division between Orthodox Jews and Reform Jews can be traced to reaction to the Jewish “Enlightenment” (Haskalah).

The division between liturgically observant Catholics and “not so much” liturgically observant Catholics can be traced to reaction to the Catholic “Enlightenment” (The Spirit of VCII).

But surely an Ordinary Form Mass said in accordance with the rubrics is as “liturgically observant” as a properly-said Extraordinary Form Mass.

 

[KSU]

But surely an Ordinary Form Mass said in accordance with the rubrics is as “liturgically observant” as a properly-said Extraordinary Form Mass.

Of course. The OF can be celebrated with beauty and reverence and with some Latin (as it is in my parish), just as the EF can be said robot-like without any reverence. I live in a large city but don’t even have convenient access to a EF (contrary to the very clear wish of Saint JPII).

In my post I was referring to, as examples, the failures of the Church in America to comply with the Vatican’s directive to always use altar boys unless certain conditions are met first, and VCII’s clear statement that traditional Latin chant has preference over mariachi bands, garage bands, bongo serenades, and the local singer’s latest justice and peace composition.

I was also referring to abuses such as a priest asking all the youngsters in the congregation to leave their pews and stand around the alter; ususually dressing for the beach rather than the Mass, with never a word from the pastor; women dancing around the community table of plenty interpreting the true meaning of the Mass; four times the amount of necessary Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion; twice the amount of (usually banal) music than is necessary so that there is NO quiet time; etc. I’m sure you have heard of the Seattle Seahawks Super Bowl Mass.

Remember this? catholic.com/documents/liturgical-abuses

 

[pnewton]

I agree. The church I had been attending for years suddenly changed priests and the whole church changed. He is very traditional, only boys for altar servers, a formal choir singing latin songs, much of the mass in latin and lots of fancy robes and candles.

It wasn’t for me, so I am now attending a less formal church, with more parishioner participation such as singing, and much better sermons. It was easy for me to change because there are several Catholic churches in my area.

It’s up to the priest how he wants his church to be, and if you don’t like it, go somewhere else.

This sounds great. There is a reason why the Church allows variances in this matter. It is problematic for the bishop in this case rule that a parish must let both girls and boys serve just for the sake of unity. St. Paul gave us the blueprint for evangelism when he said he had become all things to all people so that some might be saved.

On the other hand, sometimes God puts us in surprising places. I would have never thought I would have ended up in a predominantly immigrant parish with more that speak Spanish than English as a first language. I grew up the stereotypical “WASP”. Yet even at the parish level, diversity brings a lot of resources to bear on our spiritual journey.

 

[ProVobis]

Yet even at the parish level, diversity brings a lot of resources to bear on our spiritual journey.

True if you’re at the parish level. But at the same-Mass level, probably not so much. Remember a lot of the diversity has been manufactured. The “hermeneutic of discontinuity and rupture” is something Pope Benedict warned against, not praised.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

This sounds great. There is a reason why the Church allows variances in this matter. It is problematic for the bishop in this case rule that a parish must let both girls and boys serve just for the sake of unity. St. Paul gave us the blueprint for evangelism when he said he had become all things to all people so that some might be saved.

On the other hand, sometimes God puts us in surprising places. I would have never thought I would have ended up in a predominantly immigrant parish with more that speak Spanish than English as a first language. I grew up the stereotypical “WASP”. Yet even at the parish level, diversity brings a lot of resources to bear on our spiritual journey.

Yes, the church I go to now is also ethnically diverse. We have a great Pentacost celebration with many different languages and cultures represented.

 

[pnewton]

True if you’re at the parish level. But at the same-Mass level, probably not so much. Remember a lot of the diversity has been manufactured. The “hermeneutic of discontinuity and rupture” is something Pope Benedict warned against, not praised.

I do not think we are talking that far out. In this case, it is just having girl altar servers. I am assuming that we are speaking of legitimate liturgical options.

 

[ProVobis]

I do not think we are talking that far out. In this case, it is just having girl altar servers. I am assuming that we are speaking of legitimate liturgical options.

As for young-lady servers, you’re probably right on that. My local parish is bi-lingual and it seems both Masses have infuriated those aspiring to become young-lady servers equally.

 

[Phemie]

It won’t be long before Africa starts sending missionaries to us.

She already is.

 

[pnewton]

She already is.

We have a priest from Nigeria that visits every year from the Missionary Society of St. Paul in Abuja. Just for kicks, I looked up their policy.

A Candidate should fulfil the following requirements:
:black_medium_small_square:Candidates should have made their First Communion.
:black_medium_small_square:Candidates should know how to genuflect correctly.
:black_medium_small_square:Candidates should know how to make the sign of the Cross.
Candidates can be male or female as long as their church agrees with the practice of female altar servers.

facebook.com/catholicaltarserversnigeria/notes

All the priests I have met from that society accept girl altar servers as a given, yet are having no issues expanding vocations. This is evidence that this issue with vocations is not rooted in the gender of the altar servers. In light of our humanistic, secular and materialistic society, in light of the way kids are fed sex, violence and belittling of religion, I can think of far more likely candidates for vocations to decline, and am rather encouraged with how well we are doing in light of this. After all , Sodom only had Lot and his family. Not even ten good men could be found.

 

[Phemie]

The same way, I suppose, that they have felt a call in the past when we had large numbers of young women entering the religious life, at a time when there were no women on the altar.

When I was an altar server—well, back then, it was just altar boys—**there were no lectors, **no extraordinary ministers of holy communion, no cantors, no readers, and no one in the sanctuary but the priest and the altar boys. The choir was in the choir loft, heard but not seen.

Yet there were not only a lot of vocations to the priesthood, there were a lot of vocations to the religious life, with full convents. Then came the drought.

Today there are fewer sisters to provide examples to girls and young women. Yet in this area, there seems to be something of a mini-renaissance happening with regard to religious life. There are several orders of women religious whose members are aging. But we also have a new order of sisters with younger members, and whose charism is teaching. Recently a new order of monastic carmelites moved here. And an annual discernment retreat for young women has been quite successful. Fr. Z recently made mention of a new order of nuns in the Kansas City diocese who are traditional in their devotions and with young membership. So perhaps the tide is turning.

There were Lectors, though perhaps not in your parish. It was a step to the priesthood and a minor order.

The parish where I was baptized has been in existence since 1858. For more than 100 years, only male altar servers. In that time 2 priests were ordained but many sisters joined convents. None of either in the last 45 years.

 

[ProVobis]

We have a priest from Nigeria that visits every year from the Missionary Society of St. Paul in Abuja.

Don’t visiting priests usually comply with the “rules” of the parish? I would hardly think they have more say in parish matters than the pastor, for example, though I tend to think parish administrators have already screened out those who have set rigid standards for themselves.IOW, if you want to be invited to a parish, you should be as flexible as possible, I would think, regardless of how you personally feel about having ladies around the sanctuary and in the sacristy. And given that women run most parishes…

BTW, I have nothing against Nigeria.

 

[Phemie]

Don’t visiting priests usually comply with the “rules” of the parish? I would hardly think they have more say in parish matters than the pastor, for example, though I tend to think parish administrators have already screened out those who have set rigid standards for themselves.IOW, if you want to be invited to a parish, you should be as flexible as possible, I would think, regardless of how you personally feel about having ladies around the sanctuary and in the sacristy. And given that women run most parishes…

BTW, I have nothing against Nigeria.

The Pastor can only allow female altar servers. He may not insist that a particular priest avail himself of their ministry.

 

[ProVobis]

The Pastor can only allow female altar servers. He may not insist that a particular priest avail himself of their ministry.

True from a pastor’s point of view or whoever runs the parishes. But that wasn’t my point. One who is visiting doesn’t normally set policy though. Unless he says the EF, in which case, altar serving takes on a different set of tasks and prerequisites entirely.

 

[pnewton]

Don’t visiting priests usually comply with the “rules” of the parish? I would hardly think they have more say in parish matters than the pastor, for example, though I tend to think parish administrators have already screened out those who have set rigid standards for themselves.

Yes, and that is a good point, except they are commonplace there as well. We must be careful not to extrapolate too much. For example, Cardinal Arinze made one statement that he thought it a mistake that this practice started. Then he explained the importance of having boys serve the altar. That was all. He never said one thing about whether Africa uses altar boys or girls, yet that was an assumption, and then that assumption was used as a cause of vocations being vigorous in Africa. The assumption was not questioned (altar girls are used), nor was the generalization (Africa is a convenient, not a country), nor was the* post hoc ergo propter hoc *use of this information.

This is why try to be careful in using anecdotal evidence, or any evidence for that matter. If you note, as I did above, I seldom if ever use words like “proof” or “proves”. If various opinions exist, likely no such animal exists as “proof”. One could reasonable argue that Africa would have even a greater number of vocations if they did not have altar girls. Now, I don’t believe it, but I have to acknowledge that I, like many others here, lack both a crystal ball and omniscient understanding of alternate timelines, at least so far.

 

[pnewton]

True from a pastor’s point of view or whoever runs the parishes. But that wasn’t my point. One who is visiting doesn’t normally set policy though. Unless he says the EF, in which case, altar serving takes on a different set of tasks and prerequisites entirely.

That is why I just shake my head when I hear things like a bishop cannot make his priest do XYZ at his parish. Living in the real world, I know better. No, technically there may be some things a bishop cannot force, at least on the weekend, but he does have the authority to reassign any priest for the following weekend. In this case, he could remove the issue by assigning to a location that is all male, or maybe to an administrative position.

Or maybe, if he wanted to be charitable, a chapel using only the extraordinary form of the Mass.

Likewise, for a visiting priest, he can simply be allowed to celebrate Mass without any altar servers if he does not like those assigned that day.

 

[Phemie]

True from a pastor’s point of view or whoever runs the parishes. But that wasn’t my point. One who is visiting doesn’t normally set policy though. Unless he says the EF, in which case, altar serving takes on a different set of tasks and prerequisites entirely.

But he wouldn’t be setting policy, he would simply be choosing the option the Church says is his to choose. My guess is that if he felt strongly about it, a visiting priest would simply opt not to use servers.

I have to admit that I have had that discussion with the person who trains altar servers in our parish. Few children come to Mass in the first place so servers aren’t plentiful. Most are girls simply because that’s the makeup of the attending families. So far we have not had a priest refuse but I prepared her for the possibility. She disagrees of course, but then she also decreed that if we have a Baptism at the Vigil the short versions of the readings will be read.