S H I L O H - Genesis 49:10

[Ben_Masada]

Shiloh - Genesis 49:10

When Jacob thought he was about to die, he invited all his sons unto himself at his deathbed for the last blessings. At the turn of Judah, Jacob said that the scepter would not depart from his Tribe until Shiloh came.

Christians in general assume that’s a prophecy about Jesus, and I have researched about the matter, and happened to have found out that’s not true.

The Tribe of Judah had grown to become the leader over all the other Tribes, and kept the monopoly to exert hegemony over them all. That’s the scepter that would not depart from Judah till Shiloh came.

After the death of Solomon, Prophet Ahijah from Shiloh took his coat and went out to meet Jeroboam, who was the leader of forced labor among the Northern Tribes. As the Prophet met Jeroboam, he tore his coat in twelve parts and gave ten to Jeroboam, saying that God had decided to split the Tribes in two Kingdoms, and that ten of those Tribes would be governed by Jeroboam.

That’s when Shiloh came, and Judah lost the hegemony over ten of the Tribes. (I Kings 11:29-32) It’s important to understand that Shiloh is not the Prophet who came from his home city called Shiloh, but the split between the Tribes and the secession of the Ten Tribes. Isaiah, the Prophet considered the Secession of the Ten Tribes as the worst thing to happene to Israel, second only to the destruction of those Tribes by the Assyrians. (Isa. 7:17)

Rehoboam, the King who had succeeded Solomon his father did not understand and started preparing the Country for civil war when Shemaiah, the man of God dissuaded him by making him understand that Shiloh had come. He got it and recalled the Army. (I Kings 12:21-24)

Now, kindly share with me your comments.

Ben:

 

[Dolphincrc]

Keep in mind that many prophecies can have a double fulfillment, for example the prophecy you mention and the promises to David say that he will always have a son of his on the throne. Of course this was immediately fulfilled with Solomon and his successors, but ended during the Babylonian exile. It was fulfilled in a permanent and more excellent way with Jesus, a descendant of David.

Also the suffering servant of Isaiah- it can be taken to mean the entire people of Israel, but also refer to the passion of Jesus. Read these chapters and you will see how amazingly close they are to describing Jesus’ passion.

---

The LORD bless you and keep you!
The LORD let his face shine upon
you, and be gracious to you!
The LORD look upon you kindly and
give you peace!

 

[Ben_Masada]

Keep in mind that many prophecies can have a double fulfillment, for example the prophecy you mention and the promises to David say that he will always have a son of his on the throne. Of course this was immediately fulfilled with Solomon and his successors,

but ended during the Babylonian exile.

It was fulfilled in a permanent and more excellent way with Jesus, a descendant of David.

**That’s funny because Jesus never became king or anything to reflect a governmental position in the Land of Israel. And spiritually only through Pauline rhetoric and assumptions. Besides, Jesus could have been a descendant of David only if he was a
biological son of Joseph. Are you ready for that truth? **

Also the suffering servant of Isaiah- it can be taken to mean the entire people of Israel, but also refer to the passion of Jesus. Read these chapters and you will see how amazingly close they are to describing Jesus’ passion.

**It is taken to mean the entire People of Israel because it’s written in Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4. That it can be taken to refer to Jesus on an individual basis, only and exclusively by assumptions. You can see Jesus as the Suffering Servant because you have been trained to believe that Jesus was the only Jew to be crucified by the Romans. You cannot acknowledge the writings of Josephus that the Romans crucified thousands of Jews in the same maner as Jesus was crucified. What did the others feel when they were crucified, joy instead of suffering? You must be joking!

Ben: **

 

[Dolphincrc]

Dolphincrc;4948995:

**. You cannot acknowledge the writings of Josephus that the Romans crucified thousands of Jews in the same maner as Jesus was crucified. What did the others feel when they were crucified, joy instead of suffering? You must be joking!

Ben: **

You are right, except that we dont remember the names of those thousands of crucified Jews, but Jesus’ name is. The others, whatever they stood for is long forgotten. If he hadnt risen from the dead he would have been forgotten like all the others. Instead his disciples went so far as to die for faith in him. Why would you die for just one crucified man among thousands? Or not recant when faced with a gruesome death? Or the rapid growth of this movement? Like Paul says, the cross is utter foolishness to Greeks and Jews- why base a movement un such “foolishness”? This form of death was so gruesome, and those who went through it so utterly forgotten that we only have ONE archaelogical discovery of such death- one foot and one nail. That’s it. So the fact that thousands were crucified at this time speaks in favor for Jesus.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;4951056:

You are right, except that we dont remember the names of those thousands of crucified Jews, but Jesus’ name is. The others, whatever they stood for is long forgotten. If he hadnt risen from the dead he would have been forgotten like all the others. Instead his disciples went so far as to die for faith in him. Why would you die for just one crucified man among thousands? Or not recant when faced with a gruesome death? Or the rapid growth of this movement? Like Paul says, the cross is utter foolishness to Greeks and Jews- why base a movement un such “foolishness”? This form of death was so gruesome, and those who went through it so utterly forgotten that we only have ONE archaelogical discovery of such death- one foot and one nail. That’s it. So the fact that thousands were crucified at this time speaks in favor for Jesus.

**I do not deny that Jesus was crucified, but to me he was only one of thousands of other Jews, who didn’t have their names recorded because they didn’t have a Paul for each one of them. And Paul did what he did for Jesus, not because of Jesus per se, but because he needed to give rise to his Church. So, it would not matter which crucified he would pick. It just happened that his best friend, Barnabas, was a Nazarene and Jesus was the most convenient.

Now, to die for a Cause, it’s so common that it doesn’t mean a lot. The Bahai people in Iran at the time of the Aiatolla Hommenni were sacrificed by the hundreds for their faith without recanting. And today Arabs do the same for Islam. This happens everywhere in the beginning of a religion or during religious persecutions.

Ben:**

 

[Lapell]

Shiloh - Genesis 49:10

When Jacob thought he was about to die, he invited all his sons unto himself at his deathbed for the last blessings. At the turn of Judah, Jacob said that the scepter would not depart from his Tribe until Shiloh came.

Christians in general assume that’s a prophecy about Jesus, and I have researched about the matter, and happened to have found out that’s not true.(…)

Ben:

I first want to comment on this part. (I read only the OP, so I ask for your forgiveness if I seem way behind the rest of the pack, so to speak…)
Ben, you certainly are aware that the main author of the Biblical texts is God Himself (through the human writer(s)), and so there often are many layers of thought in a same passage.
True, the human writer of this passage very probably never had Jesus in mind. Does this necessarily mean that the main Author, God, would not have meant it to be also about Jesus? How can you read God’s “mind”, so to speak? All we know about Him is but very little compared to all that God Is…

 

[Lapell]

Keep in mind that many prophecies can have a double fulfillment, for example the prophecy you mention and the promises to David say that he will always have a son of his on the throne. Of course this was immediately fulfilled with Solomon and his successors, but ended during the Babylonian exile. It was fulfilled in a permanent and more excellent way with Jesus, a descendant of David.

Also the suffering servant of Isaiah- it can be taken to mean the entire people of Israel, but also refer to the passion of Jesus. Read these chapters and you will see how amazingly close they are to describing Jesus’ passion.

---

The LORD bless you and keep you!
The LORD let his face shine upon
you, and be gracious to you!
The LORD look upon you kindly and
give you peace!

Hi, Dolphincrc! Good to see that we have basically the same idea in mind. God bless you!

 

[Ben_Masada]

I first want to comment on this part. (I read only the OP, so I ask for your forgiveness if I seem way behind the rest of the pack, so to speak…)
Ben, you certainly are aware that the main author of the Biblical texts is God Himself (through the human writer(s)), and so there often are many layers of thought in a same passage.
True, the human writer of this passage very probably never had Jesus in mind. Does this necessarily mean that the main Author, God, would not have meant it to be also about Jesus? How can you read God’s “mind”, so to speak? All we know about Him is but very little compared to all that God Is…

**Yes, Lapell, I am 101 percent sure, and I am not kidding, that God Himself had in mind Jesus TOO. He had in mind all the other Jews who were also crucified, plus all the Jews whose heads were decapitated by the Crusades, all the Jews who were burned alive in the public “Autos-da-Fe” of Europe, all the Jews who had to climb the altar of the Holocaust 60 years ago, including one million and a half children who were trown in the ovens of the concentration camps for the only reason that they were Jews. Yes, I agree with you that Jesus TOO was in the mind of Elohim. I just can’t find fairness to claim that only Jesus was in the mind of God.

Ben: **

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Shiloh - Genesis 49:10

When Jacob thought he was about to die, he invited all his sons unto himself at his deathbed for the last blessings. At the turn of Judah, Jacob said that the scepter would not depart from his Tribe until Shiloh came.

Christians in general assume that’s a prophecy about Jesus, and I have researched about the matter, and happened to have found out that’s not true.

The Tribe of Judah had grown to become the leader over all the other Tribes, and kept the monopoly to exert hegemony over them all. That’s the scepter that would not depart from Judah till Shiloh came.

After the death of Solomon, Prophet Ahijah from Shiloh took his coat and went out to meet Jeroboam, who was the leader of forced labor among the Northern Tribes. As the Prophet met Jeroboam, he tore his coat in twelve parts and gave ten to Jeroboam, saying that God had decided to split the Tribes in two Kingdoms, and that ten of those Tribes would be governed by Jeroboam.

That’s when Shiloh came, and Judah lost the hegemony over ten of the Tribes. (I Kings 11:29-32) It’s important to understand that Shiloh is not the Prophet who came from his home city called Shiloh, but the split between the Tribes and the secession of the Ten Tribes. Isaiah, the Prophet considered the Secession of the Ten Tribes as the worst thing to happene to Israel, second only to the destruction of those Tribes by the Assyrians. (Isa. 7:17)

Rehoboam, the King who had succeeded Solomon his father did not understand and started preparing the Country for civil war when Shemaiah, the man of God dissuaded him by making him understand that Shiloh had come. He got it and recalled the Army. (I Kings 12:21-24)

Now, kindly share with me your comments.

Ben:

It has nothing to do with Jesus - there is some uncertainty as to whether the word read “Shiloh” is Hebrew or a borrowing from Akkadian; which is not helpful. In any case, the text may - like Numbers 24.17 ? - be from the time of David (assuming him to be historical).​

None of the OT “predictions” about Jesus are any such thing, neither does their application to Jesus in the NT make them refer to Him when the text that is quoted or cited appears in the OT. They are not predictions, but applications, of texts which in the light of the Easter event the early Church found supremely appropriate as ways of speaking of Jesus: these applications of familiar texts are inspired by faith in Him.

The notion that the OT was talking about Jesus is a legacy of old-fashioned exegesis based on a defective understanding of the OT’s background combined with a taste for seeing hidden meanings where they did not exist. That’s why the older English versions of the Bible treat OT texts about the political troubles of the kingdom of Judah as prophecies of Christ or the Church or the like. Add

• a confusion of prediction with prophecy
• an understanding of the whole OT as as prophetic
• & a long tradition of interpretation which included such elements
• a few other things

• and the treatment of such passages as predictions of Jesus becomes almost untouchable Even when it does an injustice to the text

 

[Ben_Masada]

It has nothing to do with Jesus - there is some uncertainty as to whether the word read “Shiloh” is Hebrew or a borrowing from Akkadian; which is not helpful. In any case, the text may - like Numbers 24.17 ? - be from the time of David (assuming him to be historical).

 

[Lapell]

**Yes, Lapell, I am 101 percent sure, and I am not kidding, that God Himself had in mind Jesus TOO. He had in mind all the other Jews who were also crucified, plus all the Jews whose heads were decapitated by the Crusades, all the Jews who were burned alive in the public “Autos-da-Fe” of Europe, all the Jews who had to climb the altar of the Holocaust 60 years ago, including one million and a half children who were trown in the ovens of the concentration camps for the only reason that they were Jews. Yes, I agree with you that Jesus TOO was in the mind of Elohim. I just can’t find fairness to claim that only Jesus was in the mind of God.

Ben: **

Ben, I never said God had only Jesus in mind. Where did you read that? In fact, I meant that He ALSO had Jesus in mind, and the way Christians interpret that passage.

 

[Lapell]

There are no predictions about Jesus on an individual basis in the Tanach.

Ben:

They obviously could not be said of him by his name, but they could be implicitly said of him, Ben!

 

[Lapell]

**Yes, Lapell, I am 101 percent sure, and I am not kidding, that God Himself had in mind Jesus TOO. He had in mind all the other Jews who were also crucified, plus all the Jews whose heads were decapitated by the Crusades, all the Jews who were burned alive in the public “Autos-da-Fe” of Europe, all the Jews who had to climb the altar of the Holocaust 60 years ago, including one million and a half children who were trown in the ovens of the concentration camps for the only reason that they were Jews. Yes, I agree with you that Jesus TOO was in the mind of Elohim. I just can’t find fairness to claim that only Jesus was in the mind of God.

Ben: **

Let’s say that you are not concerned with relating that passage, or any other passage for that matter, to Jesus, but to show us that the way the Jews interpret this and other passage(s) to mean other things, and that maybe we could be interested to learn it. For one, I would accept such wording. Could be another “Let’s talk about Judaism” thread, and no need to say that they can’t be related to Jesus of Nazareth, just that you Jews don’t, and get going…
How about it?

 

[Ben_Masada]

Let’s say that you are not concerned with relating that passage, or any other passage for that matter, to Jesus, but to show us that the way the Jews interpret this and other passage(s) to mean other things, and that maybe we could be interested to learn it. For one, I would accept such wording. Could be another “Let’s talk about Judaism” thread, and no need to say that they can’t be related to Jesus of Nazareth, just that you Jews don’t, and get going…
How about it?

**Yes Lapell, I am ready to discuss Jesus as part of Judaism, which was his Faith, and not as a Christian or hiatus between Christianity and Judaism. You are welcome to write the thread, if you please. You are right that we, the Jews, cannot confirm any non-Jewish passage to a religious Jew who was Jesus. I am glad you have pin-pointed the issue.

Ben: **

 

[Ben_Masada]

They obviously could not be said of him by his name, but they could be implicitly said of him, Ben!

**Then, you feel that it is your right to assume.

Ben: **

 

[Lapell]

**Then, you feel that it is your right to assume.

Ben: **

Well, could it or could it not? I’d rather have you say: “I don’t want to talk about it” than repeatedly repeat some which will invariously make us answer the way we have done up to now. For we can’t do otherwise.
You don’t want us to keep talking “that way”… well, you don’t have to say things which would only provoke us to speak up “that way”, Ben. You are not our spiritual leader, after all, neither are you our teacher. Please keep this in mind. O.K.?

 

[Lapell]

**Then, you feel that it is your right to assume.

Ben: **

Well, aren’t YOU free to asume the contrary in yur heart of hearts? Is it or not a “right”, then I don’t know for sure…

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Gottle of Geer;4955715:

I do believe David was historical, but I don’t believe Shiloh has anything to do with him. Shiloh happened about 40 years after David had been gone.

There are no predictions about Jesus on an individual basis in the Tanach.

Any prophecy in the History of the Kingdom of Judah to be attributed to Jesus on an individual basis is possible only by assumptions.

Ben:

## Which is what I said

 

[Ben_Masada]

Well, aren’t YOU free to asume the contrary in yur heart of hearts? Is it or not a “right”, then I don’t know for sure…

**Because you guys are only the readers of the book we have written.

Ben **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Well, could it or could it not? I’d rather have you say: “I don’t want to talk about it” than repeatedly repeat some which will invariously make us answer the way we have done up to now. For we can’t do otherwise.
You don’t want us to keep talking “that way”… well, you don’t have to say things which would only provoke us to speak up “that way”, Ben. You are not our spiritual leader, after all, neither are you our teacher. Please keep this in mind. O.K.?

**As I can see, you have never read Isaiah 2:2,3. Let me tell you what it says in there: All nations will stream toward “Jerusalem.” Many people shall come and say, “Come, let us climb the Lord’s mountain. To the House of the Lord of Jacob, that he may instruct us in his paths. For from Zion shall go forth instruction, and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem.” Gentiles will stream towards the Jewish People when they are hungry for instruction in the Word of God. If I am one of these People, you don’t have to be too proud to take me as a Teacher.

Do you know how Zechariah understood the above quotation of Isaiah? By saying that eventually, Gentiles will take hold of everyone who is a Jew and beg to let them join, because they have finally acknowledged that God is with us. (Zech. 8:23)

Ben: **