S/O of feminist thread - What is the job description for the "spiritual head" of the family?

[marymary1975]

Was that said or implied here? (It quite possibly was and I missed it). I’m asking honestly. I don’t remember ever seeing anyone say that the church has a problem with women?

It was implied. Read posts 3, 8, 19, 32. In post 32 the ideas on these posts are mentioned as “correct faith” which should be propagated. 3 states eve ate nothing happened and implies that it was only Adam’s trangretion that “brought the house down”. Women are tempted with power (as if men are not). On 8 Men have the responsibility of authority and further in 32, “God’s command to women is to support” (not true), then on 19 he mentions that Adam “didn’t want” to sin and then we have a statement " if you think women are equally as capable as men" which clearly indicates that he doesn’t think women are as capable as men. Then we have an entire post blaming women for " all the evils of society" (of course if no man has committed ever a sin and poor Adam didn’t want to sin) , and all this is portrayed as “correct faith” of the catholic faith.

All that is belief of fundamental protestantism and from radical Islam it is not catholic belief or teaching and is being portrayed as catholic teaching. Whoever comes and is not familiar with catholic teaching or is confused and sees that is going to get the wrong idea of the church and that is extremely hurtful as the church has spent the last 30 years specially with JPII correcting the wrong beliefs on women. Several people here and the other post have posted the official teaching that is in the CCC, casta conibis (the whole thing) and further developed by JPII. The word submission has been explained in depth by JPII and the cathecism. If someone at a personal level do not agree with the church position and don’t like the church’s interpretation of submission and of ephesius, is OK but do NOT state that your personal interpretation of the passage (being different to what the CCC says) is the correct church teaching, because is not true and all that does is damage to the church.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

My wife and I were discussing this thread last night.

I think if people on this forum really had to choose (because come on, we all know that most people get out of the question by saying “it is equal” But really someone is the leader in the house.) I would say the VAST majority of women on here would say that they were the leader in the faith. I would say that a majority but perhaps a less of a majority of men would say that they are the leader in the faith. But 99 percent would just say," it is equal." But it isn’t

The fact is that biblically and historically it has fallen to the man to be the spiritual leader. Sadly, many times they are absent in this aspect of life.

These threads, and indeed our world is heavily pro woman. If a man posts that he is not getting enough sex on the threads, person after person will pile on the poor misguided soul. But if a woman posts about her failures as a mother or wife, only support will follow.

I see the danger. I see the misuse of power or leadership from both men and women. Women who lead their families away from the faith and men who do the same. But someone is always leading.

I know a couple who are going to the SSPX because of the “man’s” decision.
I know a couple who are in Church every Sunday even though the Father does not believe but the Mother, his Wife, leads and they go to CHurch. There is bad leadership everywhere and on both sides. But it seems clear to me that it is set up to be a “Father, husband,” male leadership role.

My wife was wondering why. I do too. I don’t know why God uses the analogies and why he set it up a certain way.

I can tell you this. The parish that we left a year ago would have lead me away from the faith. My wife lead us to move to this place we are in now and I hate it. But, had we stayed I would have led us right on out of the Catholic Church. I am a strong Catholic, I cannot ever conceive of my life without the faith, but had we gone through what my old parish has gone through this past year, God help me, I would have left the faith with my family. I would have lead, and they would have followed. No question about it at all.

My wife lead to move here because of her job. Our faith was saved because of moving. She did not lead in faith, but it is because of her decision we still are a Catholic family today.

I do not say this lightly. The things that happened would have shaken anyone’s faith on these boards.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

As Severus mentioned that is incorrect. She was never under his submission and he constantly looked for her advice. You should probably read the florecillas.

I’ll back off “submission” because of it’s negative connotation,( if used purely it probably is accurate though) but I still assert that he lead, and she followed.

 

[Walking_Home]

Originally Posted by severus68
I will respond to you of course.

---

Agree. People breaking away from women oppressing fundamentalist sects – from seeing what has be proposed by some here – will think Catholicism is no different – and pass the Church by.

 

[marymary1975]

I guess the Catholic encyclopedia is wrong then
newadvent.org/cathen/04004a.htm

Excerpts.
Bolding, mine.

Sure looks like she was following him to me?
I think this is where people get all in a tizzy. No one is saying a woman or even Clair can not assist or help a man in faith.

St. Catherine of Sienna (with the Pope)
St Monica (With Augustine)
St Clair ( With Francis)

But it is obvious who the leader is.

What of Augustine? He definitely wrote of this even after his Sainted Mother was the cause of his faith. He himself, coming from a house where his mother lead in the faith takes the position that the father should lead.

Nowhere in there says that st Claire was “submitted to the authority of st Francis”. St Francis did have friars under his authority. Claire was never between those. St Francis would have never go and asked for advice to any of the friars under his authority while he did on multiple times seek advice from st Claire and many time he did seek advice to her as to friars under his authority. I don’t see in which way “placing someone” at a location when that someone do not have anywhere to go and is looking for a place to stay is an indicative that he had authority over her. She had no place to go, do you think st Francis was going to say “I don’t care go get hour own place”. That would have been very uncharitable of him. I don’t see how his charity can be read as authority.

I really think you are confussed as to the meaning given by the church to the word submission. Have you read the enciclicas written by pope john Paul?

Of course st Claire was “following” st Francis. Again I am thinking you are confusingwords. Following someone/ something because your agree with its ideas does not submit you to the authority of that person. St calibre obviously agreed with st Francis and she wanted to live the same lifestyle so is obvious she was going to follow him. That doesn’t mean he had authority over her. In fact st Francis would have never wanted to have any kind of earthly authority over people so little less he was going to have authority over Claire. Even in his authority role over the friars was radically different to what we think of authority but still authority for him meant he was closer to God and he could guide the friars to God. He would have never asked advice to them because it would be like a math teacher asking the student how to resolve an equation but indeed he did ask advice to Claire multiple times as he knew she was as capable and knowledgeable as him.

As to st Augustine do you realize that what he is talking is basically about double standards? Of course a household with double standards is going to be downwards to God. Again I fail to see how object in to double standards relates in anyway to bring submissive.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Nowhere in there says that st Claire was “submitted to the authority of st Francis”. St Francis did have friars under his authority. Claire was never between those. St Francis would have never go and asked for advice to any of the friars under his authority while he did on multiple times seek advice from st Claire and many time he did seek advice to her as to friars under his authority. I don’t see in which way “placing someone” at a location when that someone do not have anywhere to go and is looking for a place to stay is an indicative that he had authority over her. She had no place to go, do you think st Francis was going to say “I don’t care go get hour own place”. That would have been very uncharitable of him. I don’t see how his charity can be read as authority.

I really think you are confussed as to the meaning given by the church to the word submission. Have you read the enciclicas written by pope john Paul?

Of course st Claire was “following” st Francis. Again I am thinking you are confusingwords. Following someone/ something because your agree with its ideas does not submit you to the authority of that person. St calibre obviously agreed with st Francis and she wanted to live the same lifestyle so is obvious she was going to follow him. That doesn’t mean he had authority over her. In fact st Francis would have never wanted to have any kind of earthly authority over people so little less he was going to have authority over Claire. Even in his authority role over the friars was radically different to what we think of authority but still authority for him meant he was closer to God and he could guide the friars to God. He would have never asked advice to them because it would be like a math teacher asking the student how to resolve an equation but indeed he did ask advice to Claire multiple times as he knew she was as capable and knowledgeable as him.

As to st Augustine do you realize that what he is talking is basically about double standards? Of course a household with double standards is going to be downwards to God. Again I fail to see how object in to double standards relates in anyway to bring submissive.

As this is off topic I will just refer back to my previous statement about submission.

The Pope (male) is the spiritual head of the Church’s household. He may be counseled and even influenced by women. In the domestic CHurch we should set it up the same. That is not always possible, so we do our best.

Even when it come’s to Mary, the Pope is the leader. It is the Pope, or his appointed councils or Bishops that decide if an apparition of the blessed mother is valid.

I have not read the encyclicals by pope John Paul. I have read some by his successor and I assume you mean those. I have read many of them, is there something that stands out to you?

 

[Walking_Home]

As this is off topic I will just refer back to my previous statement about submission.

The Pope (male) is the spiritual head of the Church’s household. He may be counseled and even influenced by women. In the domestic CHurch we should set it up the same. That is not always possible, so we do our best.

Even when it come’s to Mary, the Pope is the leader. It is the Pope, or his appointed councils or Bishops that decide if an apparition of the blessed mother is valid.

I have not read the encyclicals by pope John Paul. I have read some by his successor and I assume you mean those. I have read many of them, is there something that stands out to you?

---

Yet St. Claire resisted and refused Pope Gregory IX – when he tried to pressure her to deviate from her practice. This quite impressed the Pope.

 

[Kamaduck]

My wife and I were discussing this thread last night.

I think if people on this forum really had to choose (because come on, we all know that most people get out of the question by saying “it is equal” But really someone is the leader in the house.) I would say the VAST majority of women on here would say that they were the leader in the faith. I would say that a majority but perhaps a less of a majority of men would say that they are the leader in the faith. But 99 percent would just say," it is equal." But it isn’t.

I would think the goal would be equality. Why is that impossible? Why can’t responsibility be shared?

(I’m not even an adult yet, so ??? as far as being a leader is concerned.)

The fact is that biblically and historically it has fallen to the man to be the spiritual leader. Sadly, many times they are absent in this aspect of life.

I’m sure the basic level of education (and sometimes even literacy!) was helpful.

These threads, and indeed our world is heavily pro woman. If a man posts that he is not getting enough sex on the threads, person after person will pile on the poor misguided soul. But if a woman posts about her failures as a mother or wife, only support will follow.

I’m seeing pretty much all the men argue for female submission, other than Veritas (who already left the discussion). Mostly these threads convince me that I should never get married, because apparently getting married means that tons of people will think your husband should rule over you.

Even the threads in which men complain about their wives convince me of that, because I couldn’t stand to fail someone like that. It would drive me crazy.

I see the danger. I see the misuse of power or leadership from both men and women. Women who lead their families away from the faith and men who do the same. But someone is always leading.

When I had parents, they worked stuff out together. I went from being Protestant to being Catholic as a result of their guidance and these boards.

I know a couple who are going to the SSPX because of the “man’s” decision.
I know a couple who are in Church every Sunday even though the Father does not believe but the Mother, his Wife, leads and they go to CHurch. There is bad leadership everywhere and on both sides. But it seems clear to me that it is set up to be a “Father, husband,” male leadership role.

Based on what?

My wife was wondering why. I do too. I don’t know why God uses the analogies and why he set it up a certain way.

But where are we actually getting this analogy? Is this solely that the man is the head of the woman as Christ is the head of the Church? There’s no way that’s a perfect analogy, because men are imperfect, and we shouldn’t submit to them in all things the way we do for God. So when and why are we supposed to submit to them?

I mean, unless we should “submit” all the time. In which case I am never getting married.

I can tell you this. The parish that we left a year ago would have lead me away from the faith. My wife lead us to move to this place we are in now and I hate it. But, had we stayed I would have led us right on out of the Catholic Church. I am a strong Catholic, I cannot ever conceive of my life without the faith, but had we gone through what my old parish has gone through this past year, God help me, I would have left the faith with my family. I would have lead, and they would have followed. No question about it at all.

My wife lead to move here because of her job. Our faith was saved because of moving. She did not lead in faith, but it is because of her decision we still are a Catholic family today.

I do not say this lightly. The things that happened would have shaken anyone’s faith on these boards.

I’m glad your faith is intact.

 

[marymary1975]

As this is off topic I severst refer back to my previous statement about submission.

The wriale) is the spiritual head of the Church’s household. He may be counseled and even influenced by women. In the domestic CHurch we should set it up the same. That is not always possible, so we do our best.

Even when it come’s to Mary, the Pope is the leader. It is the Pope, or his appointed councils or Bishops that decide if an apparition of the blessed mother is valid.

I have not read the encyclicals by pope John Paul. I have read some by his successor and I assume you mean those. I have read many of them, is there something that stands out to you?

Yes I mean the ones by John Paul II. I think it was severus on the other threat who pasted the relevant content that stands out in this subject.

I don’t understand why you are making a comparison to the pope. The structure of the catholic church is hierarchical in mature. Marriage is not hierarchical that is why I don’t think is a good comparison.

The comparison between husband and wife is the one of Christ and the groom to his church. The question you should ask yourself is what attitude Christ had towards his church? What did Jesus said about leadership and being the head? Did Jesus told yo his apostoles to go and proclaim themselves as the head?

Maybe I am wrong but unfortunately the impression you are giving to me is that you are seeing marriage as hierarchical with the male being first. Jesus said that the ones who claim to be first would be the last and the CCC states that they are equal and there is a mutual submission to God. The one sided submission has been eliminated in casta canubis so while I do agree with you on the man being the head I am not sure if you have the right definition of what being the head means from a theological standpoint.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I would think the goal would be equality. Why is that impossible? Why can’t responsibility be shared?

(I’m not even an adult yet, so ??? as far as being a leader is concerned.)

I’m sure the basic level of education (and sometimes even literacy!) was helpful.

I’m seeing pretty much all the men argue for female submission, other than Veritas. Mostly these threads convince me that I should never get married, because apparently getting married means that tons of people will think your husband should rule over you.

Even the threads in which men complain about their wives convince me of that, because I couldn’t stand to fail someone like that. It would drive me crazy.



When I had parents, they worked stuff out together. I went from being Protestant to being Catholic as a result of their guidance and these boards.

Based on what?

But where are we actually getting this analogy? Is this solely that the man is the head of the woman as Christ is the head of the Church? There’s no way that’s a perfect analogy, because men are imperfect, and we shouldn’t submit to them in all things the way we do for God. So when and why are we supposed to submit to them?

I mean, unless we should “submit” all the time. In which case I am never getting married.

I’m glad your faith is intact.

Where are we getting this analogy? The Bible. History. Our Jewish Roots. And God himself through the Church. There are not female Popes.

Honestly I think this idea of submission is the real hangup here. True submission to a holy person or cause would not be misused.

Look, when you decided to be Catholic, when you decided to follow this faith, you became under the mission of the faith. You are submissive to it. You as am I are in submission to our Bishop and by extension, the Pope. The Pope is under submission to Christ. And the Father.

I find it interesting though and to your point, that Pope Francis has recently said, “I am a son of the Church.” With the CHurch being regarded as female. BUt at the head of the Church is Christ Himself.

When God incarnated. He did so as a man. COuld it have been a woman? Sure why not. But it wasn’t. To say that the culture would not have allowed it at the time is silly because many women were powerful in history. Even Caesar’s wife told him not to go to the senate on the Ides of March. He ignored her at his own peril. Women have been quite powerful in the Bible as well. And who can forget the power of Cleopatra.

But through it all one thing has remained constant. Men have lead. Mean have lead in faith not just in the family but in the world. God gave His People kings. These were men. David was a Man. God anointed Him King. Many have argued and even some on this thread that men are responsible for the mess we are in.; It is very true. But God., knowing all this, still came as a Man, established His Church on a Man and Rules it by men.

Who would have argued if Jesus had made his Mother the FIrst Pope. Or even one of the 12? Surely she had more spiritual chops than Peter. She was a leader when Peter ran and denied. But even Mary said, “listen to Him, do what He tells you” In this case, the son is greater than the Mother.

Out of all the faiths, Catholicism is the most feminine. We have Mary as the only person of all time who was never ever in sin. We have Holy Orders for women and saints we venerate and pray to that are some of the most powerful women in any faith.
We also have a hierarchy and “family” set up that has a male at the head.

Again, I don’t know why. But I do know it to be the case.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Yes I mean the ones by John Paul II. I think it was severus on the other threat who pasted the relevant content that stands out in this subject.

I don’t understand why you are making a comparison to the pope. The structure of the catholic church is hierarchical in mature. Marriage is not hierarchical that is why I don’t think is a good comparison.

The comparison between husband and wife is the one of Christ and the groom to his church. The question you should ask yourself is what attitude Christ had towards his church? What did Jesus said about leadership and being the head? Did Jesus told yo his apostoles to go and proclaim themselves as the head?

Maybe I am wrong but unfortunately the impression you are giving to me is that you are seeing marriage as hierarchical with the male being first. Jesus said that the ones who claim to be first would be the last and the CCC states that they are equal and there is a mutual submission to God. The one sided submission has been eliminated in casta canubis so while I do agree with you on the man being the head I am not sure if you have the right definition of what being the head means from a theological standpoint.

I don’t understand why you are making a comparison to the pope. The structure of the catholic church is hierarchical in mature. Marriage is not hierarchical that is why I don’t think is a good comparison.

The Church is compared to marriage all the time but most strikingly in the Bible. The CHurch is the Bride of Christ. Bride. Bride. Bride.

You may not like the comparison, but I am not the one who made it. Take it up with Paul or God.

Maybe I am wrong but unfortunately the impression you are giving to me is that you are seeing marriage as hierarchical with the male being first. Jesus said that the ones who claim to be first would be the last and the CCC states that they are equal and there is a mutual submission to God. The one sided submission has been eliminated in casta canubis so while I do agree with you on the man being the head I am not sure if you have the right definition of what being the head means from a theological standpoin

yes you are wrong. If you know my situation, you would laugh at the idea you just accused me of.
We probably agree. Equal in value does not mean equal in power.

What part of the CCC are you referring to?

 

[gam197]

This is not what the catholic church teaches and you are basically suggesting to commit a sin as means to an end. This is forbidden by the church.

I am not suggested that any man have multiple wives and I am certainly not suggesting that Saint Paul had anything to do with that but I am wondering what Saint Paul meant by submission.

Is it that women are subject to their husbands and please don’t take this wrong as subjugation or subservient as that is totally different.

Is this submission in one area or is it in many areas?

Women may also look at submission as a bad thing because of the sin in the culture. It may be a good thing as defined by the church? Just a thought. I guess that is why we are discussing this.

 

[Walking_Home]

Men are not God. This is why the Catholic Church teaches – that a husband and wife – subject themselves to one another – in reverence to Christ. Husband subjects/lsubmits to the wife – the wife subjects/submits to the husband. This teaching places the leadership/headship – of the family where it belongs – on God.

It like through time – men have “idolized” themselves to take the place reserved to God alone. Some women – have been carried along with it.

 

[marymary1975]

The Church is compared to marriage all the time but most strikingly in the Bible. The CHurch is the Bride of Christ. Bride. Bride. Bride.

You may not like the comparison, but I am not the one who made it. Take it up with Paul or God.

yes you are wrong. If you know my situation, you would laugh at the idea you just accused me of.
We probably agree. Equal in value does not mean equal in power.

What part of the CCC are you referring to?

Let me take you back to your comparison: the Pope…may be counseled and even influenced by women. In the domestic church we should do the same. Neither the bi le nor the church have ever compared marriage to the hierarchical organization of the church.

The church, which by the way is all of us not only the pope and bishops, and its relationship to Christ is what is constantly compared to marriage. The hierrarchiecal structure of the church which is to what you are comparing to marriage, has never been compared to marriage in the scripture or in any teaching of the church. Hence comparing marriage which is not hierarchical to a hierarchical structure is not a good comparison.

Second, and this refers to agape’s comment too, it surprises me how you guys are failing to see the posts that contain the quotes from the magisterium of the church. Agapewolf, the definition if submission is contained in casta cannubis and in the enciclas of JPII which are complemental with the CCC. Severus walking home and others have been repeatedly posting the quotes and the documents that contain the answer to your question.

Hoosier daddy, same thing Severus already posted and I thin more than once if you include the other post the CCC.

One thing is true I don’t know your situation but …keep in mind that I said “I may be wrong”…the way you are coming out in your writing and the impression you are giving in your writing to others is that you think that men are the authoritative figure and that women are completely uncapable hence they need an authoritative male to tell them what to do. It may not be right but again that is the impression you are giving.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Let me take you back to your comparison: the Pope…ing.

I’m going to repost this because in all of the :slapfight:

I wanted to address your post individually while taking up several topics that have come up on this thread.
I think the husband is supposed to be the spiritual head of the household. But many lack in their jobs. That is why in some Churches mostly women fill the pews. Just like men should be involved and holy fathers modeling our Father in Heaven, so too should they lead the family to heaven. That does not always happen. And believe me, I understand what you are saying about how some might “judge” your family despite the results. I am a Stay at home homeschooling dad. So I hear ya sista, I get it too, that we are doing things backward. But here is the thing. It can be like a single mom. No one wants to tell a single mom that she is doing poorly raising her children. But the fact is, it is supposed to be a two parent male female household, that would be God’s design. Now, sometimes this does not happen. Does that mean we should judge single moms? Or tell them how awful they are. Or blame a widow for her husbands death? NO of course not! But it is not the optimal situation God would have. Same with me, same with you. We do what is best with the hand dealt us. Our main goal is to get ourselves and our loved ones to heaven.

Now, that being said I have no idea where all of this “The Church does not teach the man is the head” stuff comes from. Someone quoted the CCC about parents having the responsibility to teach the faith to the kids as some sort of proof that it is equal. Nope. That part of the CCC is completely fulfilled in many scenarios where the husband is the head of the household in regards to faith. A homeschooling mom, teaching her kids the faith is not asserting “head of household with faith matters” She is following the lead of the husband in living a Catholic life and being a Catholic family.
Jesus was not in the Temple teaching women to go home and teach their husbands, he was teaching men, to go home and teach their families. Long before Christianity, in our Jewish roots the man was the head of the household of faith.
In the book of Joshua we have this:
Quote:

But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

This is not a woman speaking, it is a man, speaking for his household.

Analogies are made, and for good reason, between a family and God and His Church.
God is our Father. He is the ultimate of what a father should be. Men should try to be like the Father when they are fathers. We will fail, but that is the bar for us to strive for.

The Church and Mary our our mothers. They lead us in the faith as well. Under direction of the Father and Son. What did Mary say about her Son? “Listen to Him and do whatever He says”

We were all given Mary as a mother and the Church as God’s Bride but Mary is not God, She is not the Father. The CHurch is subject to the Father as well.
The Husband should be the head. But how many saints have had the Mother to thank for their soul. Augustine definitely has his mother to thank
Augustine’s father was a Pagan. Monica begged to have him (augustine) baptised.

From Wiki:
Quote:

Monica had three children who survived infancy: Augustine the eldest, Navigius the second, and a daughter, Perpetua. Monica had been unable to secure baptism for her children, and she experienced much grief when Augustine fell ill. In her distress she asked Patritius to allow Augustine to be baptized; Patritius agreed, but on the boy’s recovery withdrew his consent.

Of course the rest is history. Monica prayed for Augustine unceasingly and because of her he became one of the greatest saints in our Church.

Interestingly enough he went on to state this:
Quote:

“You are told, ‘You shall not commit adultery’ (Ex 20:14); that is, do not go to any other woman except your wife. But what you do is demand this duty from your wife, while declining to pay this duty to your wife. And while you ought to lead your wife in virtue — chastity is a virtue, you know — you collapse under one assault of lust. You want your wife to conquer; you yourself lie there, conquered. And while you are the head of your wife, she goes ahead of you to God, she whose head you are. Do you want your household to hang head downwards? ‘The husband is the head of the wife’ (Eph 5:23); but where the wife leads a better life than the husband, the household hangs head downwards.”

(Sermon 9, 3)

 

[marymary1975]

I would think the goal would be equality. Why is that impossible? Why can’t responsibility be shared?

II’seeing pretty much all the men argue for female submission, other than Veritas (who already left the discussion). Mostly these threads convince me that I should never get married, because apparently getting married means that tons of people will think your husband should rule over you.

Even the threads in which men complain about their wives convince me of that, because I couldn’t stand to fail someone like that. It would drive me crazy.



When I had parents, they worked stuff out together. I went from being Protestant to being Catholic as a result of their guidance and these boards.

Based on what?

But where are we actually getting this analogy? Is this solely that the man is the head of the woman as Christ is the head of the Church? There’s no way that’s a perfect analogy, because men are imperfect, and we shouldn’t submit to them in all things the way we do for God. So when and why are we supposed to submit to them?

I mean, unless we should “submit” all the time. In which case I am never getting married.

.

In defense of men, this is not the first time this subject had been discussed in CAF and I can assure you there are many men here I’m CAF who do not agree with the idea that the man has to rule over the wife. There are a couple I know the reason why they have this belief is that they had some unfortunate situations in their life and others they just isolate statements according to what they like the most. Ironically if we would have the ability to take this same discussion to Jesus I bet his answer to is would be exactly the same answer he gave the apostoles when they were arguing who was going to be the first one.

The analogy again is Paul telling how things “should” and because men are imperfect and sinners is why casta cannubi has an entire list of exceptions and why the church has elaborated so much as to this analogy. Again putting your personal opinion as church yeaching in the analogy only harms the church.

And finally don’t worry, there are plenty of catholic men who thank to God think that the idea that the husband having to rule over the wife is nuts, and there are many catholic who believe in shared responsibilities and working together.

 

[agapewolf]

It was implied. Read posts 3, 8, 19, 32. In post 32 the ideas on these posts are mentioned as “correct faith” which should be propagated. 3 states eve ate nothing happened and implies that it was only Adam’s trangretion that “brought the house down”. Women are tempted with power (as if men are not). On 8 Men have the responsibility of authority and further in 32, “God’s command to women is to support” (not true), then on 19 he mentions that Adam “didn’t want” to sin and then we have a statement " if you think women are equally as capable as men" which clearly indicates that he doesn’t think women are as capable as men. Then we have an entire post blaming women for " all the evils of society" (of course if no man has committed ever a sin and poor Adam didn’t want to sin) , and all this is portrayed as “correct faith” of the catholic faith.

All that is belief of fundamental protestantism and from radical Islam it is not catholic belief or teaching and is being portrayed as catholic teaching. Whoever comes and is not familiar with catholic teaching or is confused and sees that is going to get the wrong idea of the church and that is extremely hurtful as the church has spent the last 30 years specially with JPII correcting the wrong beliefs on women. Several people here and the other post have posted the official teaching that is in the CCC, casta conibis (the whole thing) and further developed by JPII. The word submission has been explained in depth by JPII and the cathecism. If someone at a personal level do not agree with the church position and don’t like the church’s interpretation of submission and of ephesius, is OK but do NOT state that your personal interpretation of the passage (being different to what the CCC says) is the correct church teaching, because is not true and all that does is damage to the church.

On 3 and 8, I completely disagree with you that he’s even implying that "women don’t matter to the church. (I haven’t yet read the others)

I think its very beautiful to have the man as protector. It’s also the archetype for understanding men’s only ordination.

I’ve taken all the classes for my certification from the Theology of the Body institute. In one month I’ll be teaching a practicum… and I’m speaking about spiritual motherhood and fatherhood (among other things).

One of the analogies I’m using is a triangle. People often think the hierarchy of the church is the pope is at the top of the triangle, with cardinals underneath, with lay people at the bottom, and women being oppressed under the man.

Really, it should be viewed inverted… the pope, in a certain sense, is at the bottom, in service to the church. He has the weight of the world’s souls on his shoulders (hence our obedience is important, because he will be held accountable for leading a flock astray). The cardinals then priests above him, then men, and women at the top as crown of creation. Lay men “lower” themselves (in a certain sense), to be priests… its humility, in service to the church. For women to try to be priests is putting them in a position “lower” than their dignity.

A family can be viewed in the same way, as husband is head of the family, “lowering” himself by sacrificing, in service to his family. Because of his mission as protector, he has a lot riding on his responsibility to get his family to heaven… to “love as Christ loved the church”.

 

[gam197]

originally posted by HoosierDaddy
We were all given Mary as a mother and the Church as God’s Bride but Mary is not God, She is not the Father. The CHurch is subject to the Father as well.
The Husband should be the head. But how many saints have had the Mother to thank for their soul. Augustine definitely has his mother to thank
Augustine’s father was a Pagan. Monica begged to have him (augustine) baptised.

I was told this from a person who reads lots of books on wars that when a soldier is dieing, they often call for their mother (not their dad). So women have a profound influence on their children.

originally posted by marymary1975
And finally don’t worry, there are plenty of catholic men who thank to God think that the idea that the husband having to rule over the wife is nuts, and there are many catholic who believe in shared responsibilities and working together.

If he were pray-filled man, I don’t think it would come across as ruling over. Imperfections again that women have to live with but not get totally angry about.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Second, and this refers to agape’s comment too, it surprises me how you guys are failing to see the posts that contain the quotes from the magisterium of the church. Agapewolf, the definition if submission is contained in casta cannubis and in the enciclas of JPII which are complemental with the CCC. Severus walking home and others have been repeatedly posting the quotes and the documents that contain the answer to your question.

What surprises me is how there are no verses or historical accounts of it being equal. There is no verses telling you that a woman is the head. There is no history of women leading the CHurch from a hierarchical position. There is no history of Jews letting women lead. There is no history of any of that. But one little thing about how PARENTS need to raise the kids in the faith in the CCC is thrown out like it discounts Tradition, the Bible, and the entirety of salvation history.

The Quotes, none of them, refute the idea that the man is the spiritual head of household.

You cannot separate the Church from Her hierarchy. She was set up by Christ this way. As was marraige.

A woman can be more faithful and more knowledgeable than a man in a household. This is actually probably the case in MOST households. That does not mean that the woman is the head of household with faith matters.

Look, in Traditional theology and even secular traditional values the man has been the hunter and gatherer. Throughout the thousands of years of history the man has usually been the worker, the income earner. And the “provider”

I am a stay at home dad. My wife makes a lot of money and is a scientist. She is scholastically superior to me. She works and I raise the kids. I homeschool. I clean and cook. This does not go against my role as provider. I provide protection. I provide safety and I handle the money. She provides the money, she nurtures us through her hard work to feed us and give us the things we need. She comforts us and provides the blanket of financial security to make the household work.

Hardly a conventional “Male dominated” Marriage. But no matter how much I try, no matter how much I cuddle, when the kids are hurt. “mommy” is a comfort. No matter how much money my wife makes out in the cold world, she turns to me for protection from scary moments in our life.

We discussed this thread last night. It was a great and interesting discussion between two theologians. Neither superior in knowledge really, (We both have the same level of theology degrees) but both agreeing that it is the husband who is the spiritual leader. And throughout history it usually has been as well. For thousands of years one was a religion because of the Father. Especially in Judaism.

The man is the head. He is the head of the Church. ANd he is the head of the Domestic Church.

The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!”

That some marriages work without a head doing it’s job, is indeed fortunate.

For my family it is the same with some issues. But there is a reason for the way it was set up. There is a reason God used the analogy of a marriage when describing his Church. He could have used any number of institutions that had a structure similar to the CHurch. He didn’t.

Equality is indeed part of the “body” analogy.

 

[Walking_Home]

God created Eve as a helper before the fall. God never told Eve not to eat from the tree because He left that up to Adam. Adam had the responsibility to relay God’s commandment. Yes, the Bible commands women to support men. That support comes in the form of respect / submission which is in the Bible (Ephesians 5:22 and Colosians 3:18).

---

The above “claim” was made. The one side view that “attributes” helper to women only. “Commanded” – to be a support system for man.

I’ve also come across in some places-- dominion and stewardship over the earth was given to man only.

Both the above —are fundamentalist protestant 101.

Below is Catholicism.

Man and woman were made for each other. Each to be the helpmate to the other. Man the helpmate/helper to the woman – the woman helpmate/helper to the man.

God gave dominion/stewardship over the earth --to both man and woman. Not to man only.

CCC

“Each for the other” - “A unity in two”

372** Man and woman were made “for each other”** - not that God left them half-made and incomplete: he created them to be a communion of persons,** in which each can be “helpmate” to the other, for they are equal as persons** (“bone of my bones. . .”) and complementary as masculine and feminine. In marriage God unites them in such a way that, by forming “one flesh”,245 they can transmit human life: "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth."246 By transmitting human life to their descendants, man and woman as spouses and parents cooperate in a unique way in the Creator’s work.247

373** In God’s plan man and woman have the vocation of “subduing” the earth248 as stewards of God.** This sovereignty is not to be an arbitrary and destructive domination. God calls man and woman, made in the image of the Creator “who loves everything that exists”,249 to share in his providence toward other creatures; hence their responsibility for the world God has entrusted to them.