S/O of feminist thread - What is the job description for the "spiritual head" of the family?

[Hoosier_Daddy]

The point has been made that saints such as Augustine had their “Mother” head of household to thank for their faith yet, he says this: And I think this is quite telling considering he was a product of the very thing he is preaching against.

You want your wife to conquer; you yourself lie there, conquered. And while you are the head of your wife, she goes ahead of you to God, she whose head you are. Do you want your household to hang head downwards? ‘The husband is the head of the wife’ (Eph 5:23); but where the wife leads a better life than the husband, the household hangs head downwards."

THat is a pretty powerful statement by one of the most Catholic theologians in the History of our faith. It does not conflict with the CCC quoted. It enhances how the domestic Church should be modeled.

Or is Saint Augustine wrong?

 

[Walking_Home]

In defense of men, this is not the first time this subject had been discussed in CAF and I can assure you there are many men here I’m CAF who do not agree with the idea that the man has to rule over the wife. There are a couple I know the reason why they have this belief is that they had some unfortunate situations in their life and others they just isolate statements according to what they like the most. Ironically if we would have the ability to take this same discussion to Jesus I bet his answer to is would be exactly the same answer he gave the apostoles when they were arguing who was going to be the first one.

The analogy again is Paul telling how things “should” and because men are imperfect and sinners is why casta cannubi has an entire list of exceptions and why the church has elaborated so much as to this analogy. Again putting your personal opinion as church yeaching in the analogy only harms the church.

And finally don’t worry, there are plenty of catholic men who thank to God think that the idea that the husband having to rule over the wife is nuts, and there are many catholic who believe in shared responsibilities and working together.

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Thank you for bringing that up. I don’t want to paint all men with the same brush.

And yes --I too thank God — there are many, many men – who have a true understanding of a marriage made/lived in the Lord.

 

[gam197]

originally posted by agapewolf
One of the analogies I’m using is a triangle. People often think the hierarchy of the church is the pope is at the top of the triangle, with cardinals underneath, with lay people at the bottom, and women being oppressed under the man.

Really, it should be viewed inverted… the pope, in a certain sense, is at the bottom, in service to the church. He has the weight of the world’s souls on his shoulders (hence our obedience is important, because he will be held accountable for leading a flock astray). The cardinals then priests above him, then men, and women at the top as crown of creation. Lay men “lower” themselves (in a certain sense), to be priests… its humility, in service to the church. For women to try to be priests is putting them in a position “lower” than their dignity.

A family can be viewed in the same way, as husband is head of the family, “lowering” himself by sacrificing, in service to his family. Because of his mission as protector, he has a lot riding on his responsibility to get his family to heaven… to “love as Christ loved the church”.

Thank you. What a great analogy!

Remember when the apostle wanted a special place…
Matthew 23:11-15. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. Jesus contrasts that in the Kingdom of God, the greatest is not the one who rules but the one who is the…

Because of the structure of corporations, we see it as church structure and family structure.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

One of the analogies I’m using is a triangle. People often think the hierarchy of the church is the pope is at the top of the triangle, with cardinals underneath, with lay people at the bottom, and women being oppressed under the man.

Really, it should be viewed inverted… the pope, in a certain sense, is at the bottom, in service to the church. He has the weight of the world’s souls on his shoulders (hence our obedience is important, because he will be held accountable for leading a flock astray). The cardinals then priests above him, then men, and women at the top as crown of creation. Lay men “lower” themselves (in a certain sense), to be priests… its humility, in service to the church. For women to try to be priests is putting them in a position “lower” than their dignity.

A family can be viewed in the same way, as husband is head of the family, “lowering” himself by sacrificing, in service to his family. Because of his mission as protector, he has a lot riding on his responsibility to get his family to heaven… to “love as Christ loved the church”.

I love this analogy. It satisfies all points made and hits on what my wife was talking about last night about the accountability of some husbands at the end of their life for their failure to serve and lead.

Honestly this is the best post on the thread so far, I can’t believe I missed it. And I am going to incorporate it into my own theology.

 

[Walking_Home]

One of the analogies I’m using is a triangle. People often think the hierarchy of the church is the pope is at the top of the triangle, with cardinals underneath, with lay people at the bottom, and women being oppressed under the man.

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In another thread – you made the following statement. The “need to feel in charge” . This does speak to marriage relationship of service — but of power/control.
Hoosier Daddy:

I need to feel in charge, and looked to for big decisions.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

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In another thread – you made the following statement. The “need to feel in charge” . This does speak to marriage relationship of service — but of power/control.

No, you are misreading what is intended. You are also taking something out of context from another thread and using it here. :tsktsk::tsktsk:

That is a no-no. But it is good to know that you are searching through my posts. I am quite wise. It will do you good.

Just to clarify, yes, I need to feel a certain way. As do you, if you are in a marriage. You need to feel safe. And needed and nurturing, and kind, and such.

Really, this is an attack that is not warranted. Nor is it an accurate portrayal of my home. IF it will make you feel better I will renounce one of the positions that you seem to think contradict. The one you quoted, I renounce.

Just an FYI, I received a rules infraction once for doing exactly what you just did. Going to another thread and pulling something to make a point. It was wrong when I did it because even though it dealt with the same subject matter it completely taints the subject and credibility being discussed. Not only that but it can scandalize others who have not read the other thread in an attempt to assassinate a character to “win” an argument. That is why it is against forum rules.

Is that thread still open? IF so I would very much be open to talking about that statement on that thread. If not I would be open to you PMing me about it. But it is out of context here and I would appreciate a retraction or an apology. Thank you.

 

[Walking_Home]

Think I hit a nerve.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Think I hit a nerve.

Yes.

But not one that cannot be corrected.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

As for nerves being hit. yes, many nerves are hit on this thread. Most of which are nerves of women. Either way, pulling old posts is against forum rules and a dirty way to play. An apology is in order. No reason why we can’t just settle this here like grown ups. If you wish to discuss what you think I meant in another thread we can go there. If you aske me a direct question pertaining to this thread I will do my best to answer. And if you wish to address any number of posts I have made here. Especially the Augustine one I would be more than happy to continue this conversation.

 

[Kamaduck]

Where are we getting this analogy? The Bible. History. Our Jewish Roots. And God himself through the Church. There are not female Popes.

Honestly I think this idea of submission is the real hangup here. True submission to a holy person or cause would not be misused.

Look, when you decided to be Catholic, when you decided to follow this faith, you became under the mission of the faith. You are submissive to it. You as am I are in submission to our Bishop and by extension, the Pope. The Pope is under submission to Christ. And the Father.

I find it interesting though and to your point, that Pope Francis has recently said, “I am a son of the Church.” With the CHurch being regarded as female. BUt at the head of the Church is Christ Himself.

When God incarnated. He did so as a man. COuld it have been a woman? Sure why not. But it wasn’t. To say that the culture would not have allowed it at the time is silly because many women were powerful in history. Even Caesar’s wife told him not to go to the senate on the Ides of March. He ignored her at his own peril. Women have been quite powerful in the Bible as well. And who can forget the power of Cleopatra.

But through it all one thing has remained constant. Men have lead. Mean have lead in faith not just in the family but in the world. God gave His People kings. These were men. David was a Man. God anointed Him King. Many have argued and even some on this thread that men are responsible for the mess we are in.; It is very true. But God., knowing all this, still came as a Man, established His Church on a Man and Rules it by men.

Who would have argued if Jesus had made his Mother the FIrst Pope. Or even one of the 12? Surely she had more spiritual chops than Peter. She was a leader when Peter ran and denied. But even Mary said, “listen to Him, do what He tells you” In this case, the son is greater than the Mother.

Out of all the faiths, Catholicism is the most feminine. We have Mary as the only person of all time who was never ever in sin. We have Holy Orders for women and saints we venerate and pray to that are some of the most powerful women in any faith.
We also have a hierarchy and “family” set up that has a male at the head.

Again, I don’t know why. But I do know it to be the case.

I don’t mind submitting to the pope, because in the matters that I need to submit to him on, I know he isn’t wrong. It’s the same deal with God. But with a regular man making everyday decisions, I have no such assurance. I don’t know that he won’t abuse the power I give him. Therefore, I use my own judgement.

I understand that women cannot be priests or popes, but I don’t see how we go from that to “women should not lead men, ever”. If you can find a passage in the Catechism, the Bible, or church teaching that shows that yes, actually, they’re not supposed to lead unless all the men around are dead or incompetent, then I stand by my assertion that women are not forbidden from leading. If you can show me why they cannot or should not, then I will accept defeat. And probably never marry.

After all, Deborah was a leader of all Israel. She was a judge. Do you think she was acting in defiance of God by leading people and settling disputes among the Israelites?

marymary1975:

And finally don’t worry, there are plenty of catholic men who thank to God think that the idea that the husband having to rule over the wife is nuts, and there are many catholic who believe in shared responsibilities and working together.

I was mostly kidding. Mostly. I haven’t quite given up on finding a dragon-slaying partner. I know there are a lot of good ones out there.
Hoosier Daddy:

There is no history of Jews letting women lead.

Except for Deborah.
Hoosier Daddy:

Look, in Traditional theology and even secular traditional values the man has been the hunter and gatherer.

More accurately, men are traditionally hunters and women are traditionally gatherers.

agapewolf:

One of the analogies I’m using is a triangle. People often think the hierarchy of the church is the pope is at the top of the triangle, with cardinals underneath, with lay people at the bottom, and women being oppressed under the man.

Really, it should be viewed inverted… the pope, in a certain sense, is at the bottom, in service to the church. He has the weight of the world’s souls on his shoulders (hence our obedience is important, because he will be held accountable for leading a flock astray). The cardinals then priests above him, then men, and women at the top as crown of creation. Lay men “lower” themselves (in a certain sense), to be priests… its humility, in service to the church. For women to try to be priests is putting them in a position “lower” than their dignity.

A family can be viewed in the same way, as husband is head of the family, “lowering” himself by sacrificing, in service to his family. Because of his mission as protector, he has a lot riding on his responsibility to get his family to heaven… to “love as Christ loved the church”.

I’m not sure whether I like this analogy or not. It reminds me of a pedestal. I don’t want to be put on a pedestal, put in the same category as a child. I don’t want to be dismissed or told that I can’t do something I’m good at, just because it’s something men would rather do for me. I want to serve others, I want to help, I want to do something worthwhile.

Of all the feelings I’ve ever encountered, feeling useless is probably the worst one. Knowing that what you’re doing isn’t helping anyone is a horrible, horrible feeling, and I don’t want to feel like that if I can help it. I want people to give me a chance to make a difference.

And then less seriously, I’m not really sure where women in religious orders fit into this analogy. :ehh:

 

[gam197]

I don’t mind submitting to the pope, because in the matters that I need to submit to him on, I know he isn’t wrong. It’s the same deal with God. But with a regular man making everyday decisions, I have no such assurance. I don’t know that he won’t abuse the power I give him. Therefore, I use my own judgement.

I understand that women cannot be priests or popes, but I don’t see how we go from that to “women should not lead men, ever”. If you can find a passage in the Catechism, the Bible, or church teaching that shows that yes, actually, they’re not supposed to lead unless all the men around are dead or incompetent, then I stand by my assertion that women are not forbidden from leading. If you can show me why they cannot or should not, then I will accept defeat. And probably never marry.

After all, Deborah was a leader of all Israel. She was a judge. Do you think she was acting in defiance of God by leading people and settling disputes among the Israelites?

I was mostly kidding. Mostly. I haven’t quite given up on finding a dragon-slaying partner. I know there are a lot of good ones out there.

Except for Deborah.

More accurately, men are traditionally hunters and women are traditionally gatherers.

I’m not sure whether I like this analogy or not. It reminds me of a pedestal. I don’t want to be put on a pedestal, put in the same category as a child. I don’t want to be dismissed or told that I can’t do something I’m good at, just because it’s something men would rather do for me. I want to serve others, I want to help, I want to do something worthwhile.

Of all the feelings I’ve ever encountered, feeling useless is probably the worst one. Knowing that what you’re doing isn’t helping anyone is a horrible, horrible feeling, and I don’t want to feel like that if I can help it. I want people to give me a chance to make a difference.

And then less seriously, I’m not really sure where women in religious orders fit into this analogy. :ehh:

Maybe you should pray about this, ask God for direction in your life. I don’t think women are on the pedestals. Women do all kinds of work including women in religious orders.

It is just when it comes to male, female relations, there is a give and take and at times, decisions need to be made so after much discussion, hopefully the couple agree.

 

[Kamaduck]

Maybe you should pray about this, ask God for direction in your life.

I will continue to do so, but it isn’t really an issue yet.

I don’t think women are on the pedestals. Women do all kinds of work including women in religious orders.

Then why am I being told that we’re the “crown of creation”, or that men “lower themselves” in service to women? Why am I not allowed to serve according to my talents? We should all serve one another.

It is just when it comes to male, female relations, there is a give and take and at times, decisions need to be made so after much discussion, hopefully the couple agree.

I fully understand that, and I think it’s beautiful. I guess it just bothers me that people are saying that it can’t work that way- someone has to be the “head” and make the final decision all the time. I don’t see why that would be necessary if the two people are working together.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

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Thank you for bringing that up. I don’t want to paint all men with the same brush.

And yes --I too thank God — there are many, many men – who have a true understanding of a marriage made/lived in the Lord.

I know that I said I would not comment again, for this is indeed frustrating to me.

I only wanted to chime in once more to let you know that I am a man, so there are indeed Catholic men out there who do not view marriage as a “ruler/subject” relationship.

Now that’s it, I hope I’m gone for real this time.

 

[agapewolf]

I will continue to do so, but it isn’t really an issue yet.

Then why am I being told that we’re the “crown of creation”, or that men “lower themselves” in service to women? Why am I not allowed to serve according to my talents? We should all serve one another.

I fully understand that, and I think it’s beautiful. I guess it just bothers me that people are saying that it can’t work that way- someone has to be the “head” and make the final decision all the time. I don’t see why that would be necessary if the two people are working together.

You were NOT told in any way you can’t serve according to your talents. To extract that from the analogy is disingenuous.

 

[Kamaduck]

You were NOT told in any way you can’t serve according to your talents. To extract that from the analogy is disingenuous.

I apologize.

I suppose the analogy means that men are called to sacrifice themselves for women, whereas women are called to obey men. It doesn’t sound so horrible when reduced to that sentence, but I still don’t think it works very well in real life. I do not see why I should obey all men, nor why I should not sacrifice for them.

If I’m still misunderstanding the analogy, then I’m sorry. I’m really not sure what it means.

 

[severus68]

Think I hit a nerve.

Yup, definitely.

I will post to you.

JPII made it clear, more than once, that marriage is compared to the relationship between Christ and the Church, like the Church, husband and wife submit to Christ (and to each other).
Marriage is also likened to the Trinity with God (the point) on top, and huband and wife below on the same level.

 

[severus68]

I know that I said I would not comment again, for this is indeed frustrating to me.

I only wanted to chime in once more to let you know that I am a man, so there are indeed Catholic men out there who do not view marriage as a “ruler/subject” relationship.

Now that’s it, I hope I’m gone for real this time.

You are not the only one. Most don’t bother to come on these threads any more.

 

[agapewolf]

I apologize.

I suppose the analogy means that men are called to sacrifice themselves for women, whereas women are called to obey men. It doesn’t sound so horrible when reduced to that sentence, but I still don’t think it works very well in real life. I do not see why I should obey all men, nor why I should not sacrifice for them.

If I’m still misunderstanding the analogy, then I’m sorry. I’m really not sure what it means.

Nowhere was the word “obey” in regard from wives to husbands

 

[Walking_Home]

Walking_Home:

Think I hit a nerve.

Yup, definitely.

I will post to you.

JPII made it clear, more than once, that marriage is compared to the relationship between Christ and the Church, like the Church, husband and wife submit to Christ (and to each other).
Marriage is also likened to the Trinity with God (the point) on top, and huband and wife below on the same level.

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Yes – God is the only head/leader in the marriage. For a man to “claim” headship/leadership – is to unseat God.

 

[Kamaduck]

Nowhere was the word “obey” in regard from wives to husbands

Sorry, I may be confusing your words with others I have heard.

Would you mind explaining your inverted triangle metaphor?