S/O of feminist thread - What is the job description for the "spiritual head" of the family?

[severus68]

Yes, lets disregard a scientific study because the CC has NEVER gotten itself into trouble for doing that before! Let’s not make false gods out of the CC or JPII because we like what they say. We do not want to be modern day legalistic Pharisees or Sadducees. Church doctrines have been changed (i.e. geocentric vs heliocentric business) to reflect new insight.

False gods out of the Catholic Church and JPII? What on earth. So the Catechism is subject to your views and you know better than JPII?

 

[severus68]

No one is saying they are inferior. They were just given a different responsibility that is no less important than the one given to men. No one chooses it, its assigned by God.

Assigned by human beings actually, to be in control.

 

[severus68]

Edit: I’ve deleted this post because what I said was not charitable. This conversation is getting under my skin. I will no longer continue any discussion here or elsewhere re: the alleged inferiority of women.

I think you are right and I will do the same. Responding is just generating more confused posts with more inaccuracies. Those who think of women as being lesser, will not change their views - not by my posts at least.

 

[Kamaduck]

Oh please…are you trying to be obtuse? Still completely and utterly missing the point.

Children “get” their faith from their fathers. They don’t necessarily get taught the ins and outs and everything from their fathers. But their religious PRACTICE is transmitted and instilled through the father.

There ARE differences between men and women. Children learn different things from mothers than they do fathers. By “learn” I mean “get”. the essence and ability to do things in practice, not necessarily the “how”.

You can’t make an absolute statement like that and have it hold true. Even with the heartwarming little tidbit I posted about how my father taught me bible stories, he died. Years ago, before we ever even considered Catholicism. I’m here because of a combination of you guys and my mother. She’s the one who investigated the church and brought me to mass.

I mean, every source I’ve seen, even the ones that affirmed the idea of “spiritual headship”, said that the roles were not absolute. There are exceptions, such as if one parent is unable to perform a certain task. Or if they’re dead.

If the roles are absolute, then how do wanderer and I exist?

Honestly, I’m very very skeptical of this whole “spiritual head” thing. Any time I’ve heard anyone talk about it the only thing they seem to refer to is the passage in ephesians as a way of avoiding the one-sided submission interpretation. However, as Casti Conubi clearly eliminates one-sided submission as a possibility while still upholding the content of the ephesians passage I am kind of inclined to believe that this idea of a spiritual head falls into the whole “open to life” category. A well intentioned idea/phrase, but not one actually taught by the Church. I am, of course, more than willing to be shown otherwise and would be very interested in finding something more definitive on this subject, but until then I will definitely not see it as authoritative.

I think you may be right. I’ve seen the phrase so often in both Protestant and Catholic circles that I just kind of assumed it was stated in the Bible, but if all we have to go on is that one chapter in Ephesians, it’s definitely not as clear-cut as people have been making it. I’m seriously considering the possibility that “spiritual headship” isn’t taught by the Church at all, at least not in the form many people have claimed. I read your post on the other thread about Casti Conubi, and while it clearly outlined a responsibility, it didn’t say anything about subservience or fathers being the primary faith teachers. It sounded like wives submitting to their husbands was something that was primarily for emergencies, and only if it was for the sake of not ripping the family apart. Not because the husband is necessarily in the right, but because it’s important for families not to be ripped apart.

It’s so completely unlike what I still hear in Protestant circles. It makes so much more sense.

 

[marymary1975]

Don’t know their lives, but very likely had strong uncles or other male father figure types. Single unit immediate families haven’t always been autonomous. We all have wounds and they can be healed.

Not at all. St martin De porres’ father was not even catholic, and he grew up just with a sister no uncles or other male figures. St Francis father was a complete what we called a cafeteria catholic who believe all the religion stuff was crazy and who critiziced his wife over her being faithful. No uncles or other males and he always was very clear that only his mother instilled the faith in him. And what about st Augustine? His father was a pagan! Thanks to his mother and her prayers he became a saint. Mother Theresa is another case of faith installed by mother only. So I ask you again if it is absolute that the children vet the faith according to the father then explain to me st Francis, st martin, st augustine, and also explain to me how come st Maximilian, mother Theresa, st john bosco became saints and how come a vast majority of catholic saints got the faith instilled by the mothers.

 

[marymary1975]

Incorrect…scripturecatholic.com/geocentrism.html

Instead of posting a link why don’t you try first what “church doctrine” is and means because is quite obvious that you have no idea what church doctrine. Again read the CCC.

 

[agapewolf]

Not at all. St martin De porres’ father was not even catholic, and he grew up just with a sister no uncles or other male figures. St Francis father was a complete what we called a cafeteria catholic who believe all the religion stuff was crazy and who critiziced his wife over her being faithful. No uncles or other males and he always was very clear that only his mother instilled the faith in him. And what about st Augustine? His father was a pagan! Thanks to his mother and her prayers he became a saint. Mother Theresa is another case of faith installed by mother only. So I ask you again if it is absolute that the children vet the faith according to the father then explain to me st Francis, st martin, st augustine, and also explain to me how come st Maximilian, mother Theresa, st john bosco became saints and how come a vast majority of catholic saints got the faith instilled by the mothers.

I never ever used the word absolute. I never said “according to”.

But you also can’t tell me that ABSOLUTELY these saints never came into contact with even an acquaintance relationship with faithful men. They had to come in contact with priests at some point.

and you also can’t say the “Vast majority”… Hyperbole doesn’t work here.

You also can’t tell me that the faith was absolutely instilled by their mothers-- taught and exampled. sure.

 

[marymary1975]

---

As interpreted by fundamentalist protestants.

Exactly…according to fundamental protestantism and radical Islam.

 

[marymary1975]

I think you are right and I will do the same. Responding is just generating more confused posts with more inaccuracies. Those who think of women as being lesser, will not change their views - not by my posts at least.

You guys are probably right, but as veritasentiomed quite accurately is sad to see our Popes and bishops and the cathecism fighting so hard to make people understand that the catholic church does not have a problem with women to have lay people in the church trying to convince us that the church does have a problem with women.

 

[agapewolf]

You guys are probably right, but as veritasentiomed quite accurately is sad to see our Popes and bishops and the cathecism fighting so hard to make people understand that the catholic church does not have a problem with women to have lay people in the church trying to convince us that the church does have a problem with women.

Was that said or implied here? (It quite possibly was and I missed it). I’m asking honestly. I don’t remember ever seeing anyone say that the church has a problem with women?

 

[severus68]

You guys are probably right, but as veritasentiomed quite accurately is sad to see our Popes and bishops and the cathecism fighting so hard to make people understand that the catholic church does not have a problem with women to have lay people in the church trying to convince us that the church does have a problem with women.

I will respond to you of course.

Yes, agreed. I only keep on posting/responding to do my bit to ensure non-Catholics, future and potential ones, do not get the wrong impression about the Church and women.

 

[gam197]

You can’t make an absolute statement like that and have it hold true. Even with the heartwarming little tidbit I posted about how my father taught me bible stories, he died. Years ago, before we ever even considered Catholicism. I’m here because of a combination of you guys and my mother. She’s the one who investigated the church and brought me to mass.

I mean, every source I’ve seen, even the ones that affirmed the idea of “spiritual headship”, said that the roles were not absolute. There are exceptions, such as if one parent is unable to perform a certain task. Or if they’re dead.

If the roles are absolute, then how do wanderer and I exist?

I think you may be right. I’ve seen the phrase so often in both Protestant and Catholic circles that I just kind of assumed it was stated in the Bible, but if all we have to go on is that one chapter in Ephesians, it’s definitely not as clear-cut as people have been making it. I’m seriously considering the possibility that “spiritual headship” isn’t taught by the Church at all, at least not in the form many people have claimed. I read your post on the other thread about Casti Conubi, and while it clearly outlined a responsibility, it didn’t say anything about subservience or fathers being the primary faith teachers. It sounded like wives submitting to their husbands was something that was primarily for emergencies, and only if it was for the sake of not ripping the family apart. Not because the husband is necessarily in the right, but because it’s important for families not to be ripped apart.

It’s so completely unlike what I still hear in Protestant circles. It makes so much more sense.

Saint Paul brings this up quite a bit - submission.

It may be to do with the age old fact that women don’t submit when it comes to sex. They don’t want children so therefore they don’t submit and if they do they want to contracept.

Maybe these husbands were frustrated by this and Saint Paul was admonishing them both.

The muslim and mormons have found a solution, have more wives as one is is liable to submit. And I am not saying it is a good solution but I can see a twisted solution to an age old problem.

 

[marymary1975]

I never ever used the word absolute. I never said “according to”.

But you also can’t tell me that ABSOLUTELY these saints never came into contact with even an acquaintance relationship with faithful men. They had to come in contact with priests at some point.

and you also can’t say the “Vast majority”… Hyperbole doesn’t work here.

You also can’t tell me that the faith was absolutely instilled by their mothers-- taught and exampled. sure.

St Francis of Assisi’s everybody though he faithrazy…his uncles and yes even the priest. Just how you hear it. Even the bishop so yes in st Francis case it was absolutely his mother as she was the only who supported him and pushed him throuhjt the faith. You should probanly read his life and his writings as he wrote a lot and in all his writings he does talk a lot how his mother was the only influential person as to the faith in his life. So yes by his own words his mother was the only one to the point that he does compare constantly God’s love with a mother’s love and you can see his mother’s influence on his writing. And if you remember at Francis was never a priest and he though there was an issue with the church so while yrs he had contact withany priest what those priests were showing him was the wrong way to live the faith. He was called to “fix the church” so obviously if he had to “fix” it was because what he was seeing around him was not precisely right.

St martin De porres started his sainthood path as a teenager and while in his case there were priests involved the priests were basically racists, mistreated him and actually what they showed st martin through their behavior was quite the opposite of what the faith is. Again he lived with his mother mainly and his sister his father was in and out and also considered his catholicism crazy ideas. His mother also was not even catholic in the beginning as his parents were never married. Apparently the mother catched on the faith later and passed on to him. It is very unlikely that he had any strong male role model in the faith as the males around him were not even catholic or like the priest not being very charitable.

And I say the vast majority of the saints because I have read quite extensivelyvthe lives of a lot and I mean a lot of saints and for the most part it was always the mother the person who they saw as they faith strong role model. I can write here probably an entire page of saints that I know for a fact that the mother was the one who instilled the faith in them. I am bringing st Francis, st martin and st Augustine because they are the most extreme cases where the father was completely opposed to the faith and despite that not only they adopted the faith through their mother’s but turned out to be each one of the greatest saints in the church. So again, if it is a hard fact as you are stating (I used absolute because you are insisting that is a hard fact and you did say according to surveys) that the children follow the father…what happened here? Why do we have so many saints that show exactly the opposite of what the survey says?

 

[marymary1975]

Saint Paul brings this up quite a bit - submission.

It may be to do with the age old fact that women don’t submit when it comes to sex. They don’t want children so therefore they don’t submit and if they do they want to contracept.

Maybe these husbands were frustrated by this and Saint Paul was admonishing them both.

The muslim and mormons have found a solution, have more wives as one is is liable to submit. And I am not saying it is a good solution but I can see a twisted solution to an age old problem.

This is not what the catholic church teaches and you are basically suggesting to commit a sin as means to an end. This is forbidden by the church.

 

[marymary1975]

I will respond to you of course.

Yes, agreed.catholics eep on posting/responding to do my bit to ensure non-Catholics, future and potential ones, do not get the wrong impression about the Church and women.

Same for me. Given that i am friendly with quite a lot secularisy, non catholics and people who have doubts, I have seen how much this idea has harmed the church. I wish people could understand how much harm they do to the church by confusing others.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

St Francis of Assisi’s everybody though he faithrazy…his uncles and yes even the priest. Just how you hear it. Even the bishop so yes in st Francis case it was absolutely his mother as she was the only who supported him and pushed him throuhjt the faith. You should probanly read his life and his writings as he wrote a lot and in all his writings he does talk a lot how his mother was the only influential person as to the faith in his life. So yes by his own words his mother was the only one to the point that he does compare constantly God’s love with a mother’s love and you can see his mother’s influence on his writing. And if you remember at Francis was never a priest and he though there was an issue with the church so while yrs he had contact withany priest what those priests were showing him was the wrong way to live the faith. He was called to “fix the church” so obviously if he had to “fix” it was because what he was seeing around him was not precisely right.

St martin De porres started his sainthood path as a teenager and while in his case there were priests involved the priests were basically racists, mistreated him and actually what they showed st martin through their behavior was quite the opposite of what the faith is. Again he lived with his mother mainly and his sister his father was in and out and also considered his catholicism crazy ideas. His mother also was not even catholic in the beginning as his parents were never married. Apparently the mother catched on the faith later and passed on to him. It is very unlikely that he had any strong male role model in the faith as the males around him were not even catholic or like the priest not being very charitable.

And I say the vast majority of the saints because I have read quite extensivelyvthe lives of a lot and I mean a lot of saints and for the most part it was always the mother the person who they saw as they faith strong role model. I can write here probably an entire page of saints that I know for a fact that the mother was the one who instilled the faith in them. I am bringing st Francis, st martin and st Augustine because they are the most extreme cases where the father was completely opposed to the faith and despite that not only they adopted the faith through their mother’s but turned out to be each one of the greatest saints in the church. So again, if it is a hard fact as you are stating (I used absolute because you are insisting that is a hard fact and you did say according to surveys) that the children follow the father…what happened here? Why do we have so many saints that show exactly the opposite of what the survey says?

St Clair was under the submission of St Francis.

 

[severus68]

Saint Paul brings this up quite a bit - submission.

It may be to do with the age old fact that women don’t submit when it comes to sex. They don’t want children so therefore they don’t submit and if they do they want to contracept.

Maybe these husbands were frustrated by this and Saint Paul was admonishing them both.

The muslim and mormons have found a solution, have more wives as one is is liable to submit. And I am not saying it is a good solution but I can see a twisted solution to an age old problem.

Marital sex is about the husband and wife coming together in love. Its not about demand, dominance or selfishness. If all wives did not have sex with their husbands and if they did, contracepted, there wouldn’t be any births would there?

Polygamy is never a solution.

 

[severus68]

St Clair was under the submission of St Francis.

No, she was not. St Francis even looked to her for advice at times. Her order was never under the authority of any man. Brother JR explained this clearly and in depth.

 

[marymary1975]

St Clair was under the submission of St Francis.

As Severus mentioned that is incorrect. She was never under his submission and he constantly looked for her advice. You should probably read the florecillas.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

No, she was not. St Francis even looked to her for advice at times. Her order was never under the authority of any man. Brother JR explained this clearly and in depth.

I guess the Catholic encyclopedia is wrong then
newadvent.org/cathen/04004a.htm

Excerpts.
Bolding, mine.

St. Francis, who at once recognized in Clare one of those chosen souls destined by God for great things, and who also, doubtless, foresaw that many would follow her example, **promised to assist her. On Palm Sunday Clare, arrayed in all her finery, attended high Mass at the cathedral, but when the others pressed forward to the altar-rail to receive a branch of palm, she remained in her place as if rapt in a dream. All eyes were upon the young girl as the bishop descended from the sanctuary and placed the palm in her hand. That was the last time the world beheld Clare. On the night of the same day she secretly left her father’s house, by St. Francis’s advice and, **accompanied by her aunt Bianca and another companion, proceeded to the humble chapel of the Porziuncula, where St. Francis and his disciples met her with lights in their hands. Clare then laid aside her rich dress, **and St. Francis, having cut off her hair, clothed her in a rough tunic and a thick veil, **and in this way the young heroine vowed herself to the service of Jesus Christ. This was 20 March, 1212.

Clare was placed by St. Francis provisionally with the Benedictine nuns of San Paolo, near Bastia,

Sure looks like she was following him to me?
I think this is where people get all in a tizzy. No one is saying a woman or even Clair can not assist or help a man in faith.

St. Catherine of Sienna (with the Pope)
St Monica (With Augustine)
St Clair ( With Francis)

But it is obvious who the leader is.

What of Augustine? He definitely wrote of this even after his Sainted Mother was the cause of his faith. He himself, coming from a house where his mother lead in the faith takes the position that the father should lead.