S/O of feminist thread - What is the job description for the "spiritual head" of the family?

[marymary1975]

My apologies. Allow me to rephrase. It is entirely inconsistent for anyone to espouse a philosophy of “no spiritual head - let alone male” yet support an all male priesthood.

It’s not about “controlling the other sex.” It’s about propagating the faith correctly which men have been charged with for generations (all male priesthood). God’s commandment to women was to support us in that effort. Clearly, that has not happened and we are now seeing the fruits of it.

The problem with your argument is that what you are indicating is not what the faith teaches so you are propagating the faith incorrectly.

Second, priesthood and marriage are two completely different institutions so your comparison makes no sense. And men have not been “charged” with priesthood and nowhere in the bible cathecism or any official document the church has said that god commanded women to support men. Again you are propagating wrong concepts of the faith.

 

[Walking_Home]

I think I’m done with this discussion. Severus and Walking, you define words differently and have your own interpretations that are quite clearly are “better than everyone elses.” It is impossible to debate with those who refuse to look at the statistics and see the numbers for what they are. Holy Orders for men only are OK in your book, but not women yet you advocate that women are just as capable as men? That point of view is more contradictory than dry water.

Fact:
Statistically more women than men supported the most pro-abortion / pro gay marriage / anti Catholic president in history.

Fact:
More women than men support gay marriage.

Fact:
Women are more easily swayed by media than men.

These evils of society were made possible by feminizing everything and putting “feelings” ahead of what is right by God’s standard.

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Your understanding is not correct. Because we have an all male ordained priesthood – does not mean – the transmission of the Faith to Children is specific to the husband. And no matter how you try to muddy the waters – it does not change – that the Church entrusts the transmission of the Faith to both parents.

 

[marymary1975]

I think I’m done with this discussion. Severus and Walking, you define words differently and have your own interpretations that are quite clearly are “better than everyone elses.” It is impossible to debate with those who refuse to look at the statistics and see the numbers for what they are. Holy Orders for men only are OK in your book, but not women yet you advocate that women are just as capable as men? That point of view is more contradictory than dry water.

Fact:
Statistically more women than men supported the most pro-abortion / pro gay marriage / anti Catholic president in history.

Fact:
More women than men support gay marriage.

Fact:
Women are more easily swayed by media than men.

These evils of society were made possible by feminizing everything and putting “feelings” ahead of what is right by God’s standard.

Fact: statistically more men commit murder than women, more men commit violent crimes than women, more men steal more than women, more men belong to gangs more than women, more men comit sexual abuse than women, men engage more in illegal activities than women.“why do you look at the splinter in your brother’s eye and not notice the beam that is in your own”

 

[JamesBond007]

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Your understanding is not correct. Because we have an all male ordained priesthood – does not mean – the transmission of the Faith to Children is specific to the husband. And no matter how you try to muddy the waters – it does not change – that the Church entrusts the transmission of the Faith to both parents.

Again, you ignore the statistical facts without comment. What is your explanation of those? I’m very interested to learn of it.

The problem with your argument is that what you are indicating is not what the faith teaches so you are propagating the faith incorrectly.

Second, priesthood and marriage are two completely different institutions so your comparison makes no sense. And men have not been “charged” with priesthood and nowhere in the bible cathecism or any official document the church has said that god commanded women to support men. Again you are propagating wrong concepts of the faith.

God created Eve as a helper before the fall. God never told Eve not to eat from the tree because He left that up to Adam. Adam had the responsibility to relay God’s commandment. Yes, the Bible commands women to support men. That support comes in the form of respect / submission which is in the Bible (Ephesians 5:22 and Colosians 3:18).

 

[JamesBond007]

Fact: statistically more men commit murder than women, more men commit violent crimes than women, more men steal more than women, more men belong to gangs more than women, more men comit sexual abuse than women, men engage more in illegal activities than women.“why do you look at the splinter in your brother’s eye and not notice the beam that is in your own”

Yes, but we don’t go around saying it is “right” to do so. In fact there are many man that seek to stop men who do the things you say. Still though, the men that misbehave do not try to change laws or the Church to suit their malevolent acts. There is a HUGE difference.

Also, I never committed any of those crimes nor do I support any of the aforementioned things women engage in at a higher rate so no sty here to worry about in that regard.

 

[marymary1975]

I’m not really sure what you mean by “taking charge.” I don’t think anyone who believes in male headship is advocating the kind of ferocity I’m hearing from the words “take charge.” Let’s suppose a mother decides to tell her kids that gay marriage or abortion is ok. If dad said “sorry honey but you are not teaching our kids that” then she should not do so. Also, if dad wants the kids homeschooled but mom doesn’t she should defer to that especially these days with the indoctrination that goes on. Mom doesn’t have to be the one to homeschool but I know a lot of women that would cringe at such a suggestion.

And can you explain to me why„ in the first place, this so called faithful husband married a woman who supports gay marriage or abortion? If he has real good judgment and is a really faithful mam he would never had entered into this kind of marriage. What the situation you proposed shows is that right of the bat this husband does not have good judgment.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

I think I’m done with this discussion. Severus and Walking, you define words differently and have your own interpretations that are quite clearly are “better than everyone elses.”

Hey, I know how we can settle this. Of you 3, which of you are men?

It is impossible to debate with those who refuse to look at the statistics and see the numbers for what they are. Holy Orders for men only are OK in your book, but not women yet you advocate that women are just as capable as men? That point of view is more contradictory than dry water.

You say that women are not as capable as men, then? Let’s just put everything on the table. Is that or is that not what you’re saying?

Yes, but we don’t go around saying it is “right” to do so. In fact there are many man that seek to stop men who do the things you say. Still though,** the men that misbehave do not try to change laws or the Church to suit their malevolent acts. **There is a HUGE difference.

Men never try to convince the Church to change for the worse? Huh?

Martin Luther? John Calvin? Josef Stalin? Barack Obama? Adolf Hitler? Should I continue?

I’ve got people all the time trying to convince me that the Church doesn’t have a problem with women. The only trouble is, apparently, I’ve got people all the time trying to convince me that the Church does have a problem with women.

 

[marymary1975]

Yes, but we don’t go around saying it is “right” to do so. In fact there are many man that seek to stop men who do the things you say. Still though, the men that misbehave do not try to change laws or the Church to suit their malevolent acts. There is a HUGE difference.

Also, I never committed any of those crimes nor do I support any of the aforementioned things women engage in at a higher rate so no sty here to worry about in that regard.

Your argument is because women do xyz more than men then the evils of society are possible. And who told you that “we don’t go around saying it is right”
Have you ever seen a mass murder or a serial killer saying that what they are doing is wrong. Remove your own beam before pointing out at other’s splinter.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Your argument is because women do xyz more than men then the evils of society ate possible. And who told you that “we don’t go around saying it is right”
Have you ever seen a mass murder or a serial killer saying that what they are doing is wrong. Remove your own beam before pointing out at other’s splinter.

I’ve seen justifications of slavery by men. I’ve seen justifications of communism by men. I’ve seen justifications of segregation by men. Of radical Islam by men (maybe that’s the vision for women that’s being expressed here.) I’ve seen justifications of fascism by men. Of genocide, by men. Of hatred by men.

 

[Walking_Home]

Give it up --JamesBond007. Your understanding is incorrect. Thought you were done with this thread.

 

[marymary1975]

God created Eve as a helper before the fall. God never told Eve not to eat from the tree because He left that up to Adam. Adam had the responsibility to relay God’s commandment. Yes, the Bible commands women to support men. That support comes in the form of respect / submission which is in the Bible (Ephesians 5:22 and Colosians 3:18).

Give me the specific article in the catholic church’s cathecism that contains word by word what you have stated above ; and the name of the pope and papal document and the page in which a Pope has written that God created Eve as a helper. What you are writing here is your own personal interpretation of the language of the bible and that is NOT what the catholic church teaches. If your contention is that it is the church’s position, then again give me an official document from the church that contains exactly that wording. If that wording is NOT in the cathecism then you are propagating erroneous concepts.

 

[marymary1975]

I never said Eve didn’t have power. I said she misused the power she had and desired more. Adam on the other hand didn’t want his and the responsibility that came with it. He was like a child that threw his dinner in the garbage because he didn’t like it. Eve, like a child, wanted more desert than was given to her and she got a stomach ate from eating what wasn’t hers.

n

From all the excuses in the world you are bringing the cheapest and worst one “Adam did not want to sin…noooo never…he didn’t do anything it was that evil woman God gave him she made me do it”. Seems you are forgetting that that was exactly the same cheap excuse Adam gave God. What you have said is called lack of personal accountability, blaming others for your wrongs. If you don’t want to sin you just don’t sin period. The rest is excuses to blame others which is what Adam did. And you know what was the result of his excuse …
.being punished by God. Obviously God didn’t believe the story he didn’t want to sin.

 

[severus68]

Yes, but we don’t go around saying it is “right” to do so. In fact there are many man that seek to stop men who do the things you say. Still though, the men that misbehave do not try to change laws or the Church to suit their malevolent acts. There is a HUGE difference.

Also, I never committed any of those crimes nor do I support any of the aforementioned things women engage in at a higher rate so no sty here to worry about in that regard.

So, basically, the problem you see, is women.

 

[LightBound]

So, basically, the problem you see, is women.

He did give himself a screen name of a character that fornicates with at least one, if not two women, in each film installment. From that I gathered he didn’t think too highly of women, except if they are serving his needs in the bedroom or kitchen.

 

[AnnArbor]

If it is said and it has, that a wife’s obedience and subjection, is God’s law.

It’s interesting that the people who say that don’t seem to notice the word “obey” is not in the Catholic wedding vows. And before someone laments this as a sign of modernity, it wasn’t in the vows before Vatican II.

 

[Kamaduck]

You side those who say they believe in some form of equality, but yet this “rule” applies. Whose subjugating who now? A bit contradictory I think.

Decisions need to be made in a marriage like any other institution and there are going to be disagreements / crisis situations where there needs to be a chain of command. It’s not meant to be a lorded power as you seem to be interpreting it. Have you ever tried to get people to agree on something? Doesn’t work well and nothing gets done because more time is spent arguing like Congress.

You seem to interpret “the boss” as a tyrannical dictator that issues “decrees” for the fun of it. If a man leads his family in accordance to God’s will then there is no reason NOT to follow him.

Answer me this though, if you think women are equally as capable as men at leading then:

1. Why don’t you advocate for a female priesthood? Or do you? You identify as Catholic which is last I checked led by men who follow Christ (or at least are supposed to).
2. Why do a lot more women than men support gay marriage (pewglobal.org/2013/06/04/the-global-divide-on-homosexuality/)??) What is a man to do in his family if his wife supports it but he doesn’t? Who decides what the kids should be taught? Maybe not a decision a president would make but still a clear case where emotion will probably trump logic.
3. Why did women vote for the most pro-abortion / pro gay marriage / anti-Catholic president in history? (gallup.com/poll/158588/gender-gap-2012-vote-largest-gallup-history.aspx) What are they teaching their kids as in most cases they are the primary caregivers and educators?
4. Why are women more affected by outside influences like media than men (today.yougov.com/news/2013/10/07/Body-Conscious/)??)
5. Why do more women engage is homosexual acts than men (Another statistic)?

Now, there are certainly men that support abortion and gay marriage though I also tend to find such men believe in an egalitarian lifestyle where he doesn’t mind following his wife/gf. There is a positive correlation there and you did not answer my question to it in an earlier post. I think there is something telling here that we are pretending doesn’t exist.

Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that everything you’re saying here is totally correct. Does that mean that women are incapable of making decisions about themselves, or that men do better when we put them in charge?

1. Almost all mass shootings are committed by men. All of the 25 mass shootings with the most victims in America were committed by men. cnn.com/2013/09/16/us/20-deadliest-mass-shootings-in-u-s-history-fast-facts/

2)Almost all rapists are male. Moreover, 35% of male college students report that they would rape if they could be assured that they would not be caught. oneinfourusa.org/statistics.php

3)Males were 7 times more likely than females to commit murder in 2008. Men are four times more likely to be murdered. bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf

4)Of those women who are murdered, one in three was killed by a current or former partner. safehorizon.org/index/what-we-do-2/domestic-violence–abuse-53/domestic-violence-statistics–facts-195.html

1. 47% of women report frequent church attendance, whereas 39% of men do. gallup.com/poll/141044/americans-church-attendance-inches-2010.aspx

So… This is the segment of humanity that you think is more qualified to make all decisions about families. Got it.

Yes, but we don’t go around saying it is “right” to do so. In fact there are many man that seek to stop men who do the things you say. Still though, the men that misbehave do not try to change laws or the Church to suit their malevolent acts. There is a HUGE difference.

I’m pretty sure they totally do. Porn companies attempt to change laws that prohibit them from using actresses that look underage, for example. And last I checked, that was a battle they won.

Also, I never committed any of those crimes nor do I support any of the aforementioned things women engage in at a higher rate so no sty here to worry about in that regard.

Guess what? I’m a woman, and I don’t do any of that stuff either! Maybe we could use this revelation to realize that statistics show meaningful information about groups without being applicable to every single person in those groups.

God created Eve as a helper before the fall.

The word translated as “helpmeet” is also used to refer to God in the Old Testament. It’s probably not an indication that women are incapable of making decisions.

As far as women voting in our current president goes, I submit that if the Republican Party would actually stand up for women and their rights in any visible way (rather than, say, having representatives who make comments about how women can’t get pregnant from “legitimate rape”), women wouldn’t be leaving the party at the rates we’re seeing.

 

[IBombAtomically]

None of the replies on this thread have anything to do with the original topic. Man as the Spiritual Head of the family. Whether he likes it or not, or whether it is done intentionally, the man holds the leadership role in spiritual matters. It is suggested that way in the Bible, and we can see it is factual because if a man is religious, his children are significantly more likely to be religious themselves that if only the woman is religious. We’ve discussed this before on the threads. I don’t know what’s worth debating about this. Please, nobody take my words and twist them. This doesn’t mean a woman does not matter of have spiritual influence over her family… both parents must work together, but ultimately dad has more of an effect.

In daily life, I see this as the man is actively engaged in going to Mass, and living his faith. Maybe he will initiate prayers at bedtime. Maybe he will be someone the children feel comfortable asking questions about the faith; therefore, he should be knowledgeable about Catholicism. He can’t do it all on his own, not does God expect him to. But that’s what I think of as a job description for spiritual head of household.

 

[Kamaduck]

None of the replies on this thread have anything to do with the original topic. Man as the Spiritual Head of the family. Whether he likes it or not, or whether it is done intentionally, the man holds the leadership role in spiritual matters. It is suggested that way in the Bible, and we can see it is factual because if a man is religious, his children are significantly more likely to be religious themselves that if only the woman is religious. We’ve discussed this before on the threads. I don’t know what’s worth debating about this. Please, nobody take my words and twist them. This doesn’t mean a woman does not matter of have spiritual influence over her family… both parents must work together, but ultimately dad has more of an effect.

In daily life, I see this as the man is actively engaged in going to Mass, and living his faith. Maybe he will initiate prayers at bedtime. Maybe he will be someone the children feel comfortable asking questions about the faith; therefore, he should be knowledgeable about Catholicism. He can’t do it all on his own, not does God expect him to. But that’s what I think of as a job description for spiritual head of household.

I guess that makes sense. I am indeed curious what it means to be the “spiritual head” of the family, because I can’t accept that it means women are less capable of making good decisions. It must be something else. Maybe it is more like what you’re saying.

I know my dad sat down with my brother and me every night when we were little to read a “comic book” version of the Bible to us. That’s how I learned all my Bible stories before the other kids at church. It was something special that I shared with my dad, and I think things like that, dads specifically sitting down and teaching their children about God and the faith, are extremely positive.

That really is an entirely different concept than saying that a wife must be under the husband, or that she must obey him in all things. I wonder why we always come back to the latter idea, rather than a man specifically teaching his children about the faith.

 

[Walking_Home]

Originally Posted by severus68

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Exactly – “obey” is not part of the vows – pre or post Vat II.

 

[gam197]

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Exactly – “obey” is not part of the vows – pre or post Vat II.

But submissive is a part of bible teaching

1 Peter 3:1

In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives,

I agree, in a good catholic marriage, neither would need to be the decision maker.

However, in many marriages, men have to take on the role of the wife in teaching the children about the faith and women also have to take on the man’s role in teaching their children about the faith.

In those marriages, women may feel frustrated but men have an enormous amount of frustration. If the wife says I am getting an abortion. He has no say and even if he says no, it is ruled by law that his opinion is not important so I can understand why men think they have to be more forceful.