S/O of feminist thread - What is the job description for the "spiritual head" of the family?

[IBombAtomically]

I guess that makes sense. I am indeed curious what it means to be the “spiritual head” of the family, because I can’t accept that it means women are less capable of making good decisions. It must be something else. Maybe it is more like what you’re saying.

I know my dad sat down with my brother and me every night when we were little to read a “comic book” version of the Bible to us. That’s how I learned all my Bible stories before the other kids at church. It was something special that I shared with my dad, and I think things like that, dads specifically sitting down and teaching their children about God and the faith, are extremely positive.

That really is an entirely different concept than saying that a wife must be under the husband, or that she must obey him in all things. I wonder why we always come back to the latter idea, rather than a man specifically teaching his children about the faith.

Thanks for the reply! I love the story of how your dad would sit with you and read a Bible in comic book form (I’ve seen those and they are pretty neat), and how that made an impression on you. How beautiful --and that’s exactly the type of thing I’m talking about!

I think we’re getting off track by neglecting the word “Spiritual” in that title. It’s an entirely different topic than who does the finances. It’s unrelated to any sinful “do this because I said so” domination attitudes. It means children automatically look to their parents for guidance in spiritual matters (the family is the first classroom of morals especially religious ones) and that fathers seem to wield more influence so they need to be cognizant of that responsibility.

 

[IBombAtomically]

and women also have to take on the man’s role in teaching their children about the faith.

God bless the women who unfortunately have to do this. We see, through statistics showing later religiosity of children, that this role is not replaceable no matter how well-meaning the mother is. Mother and father both have critical roles but in some matters, especially spiritual, they are not interchangeable.

 

[Walking_Home]

But submissive is a part of bible teaching

Walking_Home:

Exactly – “obey” is not part of the vows – pre or post Vat II.

But submissive is a part of bible teaching

1 Peter 3:1

In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives,

I agree, in a good catholic marriage, neither would need to be the decision maker.

However, in many marriages, men have to take on the role of the wife in teaching the children about the faith and women also have to take on the man’s role in teaching their children about the faith.

In those marriages, women may feel frustrated but men have an enormous amount of frustration. If the wife says I am getting an abortion. He has no say and even if he says no, it is ruled by law that his opinion is not important so I can understand why men think they have to be more forceful.

---

The teaching of the Catholic Church is as follows ----In a Catholic marriage – each spouse is subject/submits to the other (aka mutual submission) – out of reverence for Christ. The spiritual head of the family – is God.

From the CCC.

The Grace of the Sacrament of Matrimony

1. Christ is the source of this grace. "Just as of old God encountered his people with a covenant of love and fidelity, so our Savior, the spouse of the Church, now encounters Christian spouses through the sacrament of Matrimony."149 Christ dwells with them, gives them the strength to take up their crosses and so follow him, to rise again after they have fallen, to forgive one another, to bear one another’s burdens, to **“be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ,”**150 and to love one another with supernatural, tender, and fruitful love. In the joys of their love and family life he gives them here on earth a foretaste of the wedding feast of the Lamb:

 

[marymary1975]

None of the replies on this thread have anything to do with the original topic. Man as thethis becaise ritual Head of the family. Whether he likes it or not, or whether it is done intentionally, the man holds the leadership role in spiritual matters. It is suggested that way in the Bible, and we can see it is factual because if a man is religious, his children are significantly more likely to be religious themselves that if only the woman is religious. We’ve discussed this before on the threads. I don’t know what’s worth debating about this. Please, nobody take my words and twist them. This doesn’t mean a woman does not matter of have spiritual influence over her family… both parents must work together, but ultimately dad has moremm of an effect.

In daily life, I see this as the man is actively engaged in going to Mass, and living his faith. Maybe he will initiate prayers at bedtime. Maybe he will be someone the children feel comfortable asking questions about the faith; therefore, he should be knowledgeable about Catholicism. He can’t do it all on his own, not does God expect him to. But that’s what I think of as a job description for spiritual head of household.

The problem here is that people want to interpret the man being the head of the family in isolation from the rest of the paragraph and In isolation from the rest of the scripture, and this is something that has historically been used to justify double standards, to misinterpret the church and that is why it always ends up on this debate. You cannot take sentences out of the bible and isolate them because that goes agaimst Catholic teaching. What the scripture says is that the man is the head of the family as to Christ is to his church. The role of the man is set up by the role Jesus had with his church: service, example and sacrifice. The marriage relationship is compared to Christ being the groom and the church his bride. Men should behave to their wives exactly the same way Christ behave with his church. It is leadership but leadership by service and leadership by example.

Now that is how things “should” be. The second part of the problem is that in reality a big majority of men do not follow this because following Christ’s leadership means to put yourself at the end and means effort and sacrifice. Let’s face it many men just don’t want to do that. A big majority of men want to be the boss in their own terms not Christ’s terms, and feel that being the boss means that religion rules applies to others, i. e. Women and children, but not to the head, i.e. men. As karmaduck pointed out, historically generally speaking statistically women tend to be more faithful and religious than men while too many men have tried to use the model established in the bible with their earthly definition of being the head instead of Christ’s definition of being the head. Both of which are opposite. This earthly corruption of st Paul"s model is what has caused the now a day crisis we see in marriage and that is problem with propaging incorrect ideas on this subject that the church has not approved or different interpretations than what the church says.

. If the man does take his role of leadership following Christ, by servicing by living his faith through example, by being compassionate, by looking out for the best for his family, by being actively involved in church life, by praying, being faithful etc. Then that is how God wanted things to be. But unfortunately the number of men who do this in the grand scheme of things is a minority.

 

[Walking_Home]

As to educating the children in the Faith – The Catholic Church entrusted the transmission of the Faith —to** both **parents – and Not specifically the father.

CCC

The duties of parents

1. Through the grace of the sacrament of marriage, parents receive the responsibility and privilege of evangelizing their children. **Parents **should initiate their children at an early age into the mysteries of the faith of which they are the “first heralds” for their children. They should associate them from their tenderest years with the life of the Church.34 A wholesome family life can foster interior dispositions that are a genuine preparation for a living faith and remain a support for it throughout one’s life.

2226 Education in the faith by the parents should begin in the child’s earliest years. This already happens when family members help one another to grow in faith by the witness of a Christian life in keeping with the Gospel. Family catechesis precedes, accompanies, and enriches other forms of instruction in the faith. Parents have the mission of teaching their children to pray and to discover their vocation as children of God.35 The parish is the Eucharistic community and the heart of the liturgical life of Christian families; it is a privileged place for the catechesis of children and parents.

 

[marymary1975]

But submissive is a part of bible teaching

I agree, in a good catholic marriage, neither would need to be the decision maker.

However, in many marriages, men have to take on the role of the wife in teaching the children about the faith and women also have to take on the man’s role in teaching their children about the faith.

In those marriages, women may feel frustrated but men have an enormous amount of frustration. If the wife says I am getting an abortion. He has no say and even if he says no, it is ruled by law that his opinion is not important so I can understand why men think they have to be more forceful.

As I said before, if a man ever find a himself on the situation that his wife wants an abortion unless there has been clear deceipt and misrepresentation and express lies on the part of the woman, it is his fault as is a total lack of good jugmemt to marry a woman who supports abortion so that is not an excuse.

 

[marymary1975]

As to educating the children in the Faith – The Catholic Church entrusted the transmission of the Faith —to** both **parents – and Not specifically the father.

CCC

Thanks walking home for providing is with the real and actual teaching of the church. It does quite a harm to the church to propagate ideas I’m the me of the church when the church does not teach that.

And as to both parents having the duty to teach the faith, again historically the reality is that the mothers have been usually the ones who transmit the fait. Not saying that is correct, is not as should be both fathers but it has always graspy attention that most great saints: st John bosco, st Francis of Assisi, the holy priest of ars, st Maximilian kolbe even the fagima children, it was always the mother the vehicle to transmit the faith and in many cases…as st Francis with zero participation from the father.

 

[gam197]

The problem here is that people want to interpret the man being the head of the family in isolation from the rest of the paragraph and In isolation from the rest of the scripture, and this is something that has historically been used to justify double standards, to misinterpret the church and that is why it always ends up on this debate. You cannot take sentences out of the bible and isolate them because that goes agaimst Catholic teaching. What the scripture says is that the man is the head of the family as to Christ is to his church. The role of the man is set up by the role Jesus had with his church: service, example and sacrifice. The marriage relationship is compared to Christ being the groom and the church his bride. Men should behave to their wives exactly the same way Christ behave with his church. It is leadership but leadership by service and leadership by example.

Now that is how things “should” be. The second part of the problem is that in reality a big majority of men do not follow this because following Christ’s leadership means to put yourself at the end and means effort and sacrifice. Let’s face it many men just don’t want to do that. A big majority of men want to be the boss in their own terms not Christ’s terms, and feel that being the boss means that religion rules applies to others, i. e. Women and children, but not to the head, i.e. men. As karmaduck pointed out, historically generally speaking statistically women tend to be more faithful and religious than men while too many men have tried to use the model established in the bible with their earthly definition of being the head instead of Christ’s definition of being the head. Both of which are opposite.

This earthly corruption of st Paul"s model is what has caused the now a day crisis we see in marriage and that is problem with propaging incorrect ideas on this subject that the church has not approved or different interpretations than what the church says

I would agree that God is the spiritual head of the family.

We do not live in a perfect world and many men and women marry and because of young age and lack of teaching in their own lives, have relationships that are not perfect. To say that everyone is responsible because they used bad judgment in making a decision is Ok.

But realistically, I would say the majority(50% or more) do this. If men don’t want to take on their role as assigned to them, many women want to use contraception or have fewer children. I think it cuts both ways.

Saint Paul always comes up but he is in the bible ordained by God.

 

[Kamaduck]

As to educating the children in the Faith – The Catholic Church entrusted the transmission of the Faith —to** both **parents – and Not specifically the father.

CCC

I see. That blows that out of the water, then.

Where exactly did this idea of men being the “spiritual head” come from? Is it solely from the verses about how wives should “submit” and husbands should “love”? Is it discussed in the Catechism? I’m honestly not sure. It’s an idea I grew up with in my Protestant church, but not one my parents actually adhered to (at least, not the way my mother’s church said they should). I know that in Lutheran circles, it’s considered wrong to give a woman any chance to teach men about the faith, such that women are not allowed to teach high school boys about the Lutheran faith, while unordained men are. In fact, some churches will even require freshman boys to lead senior girls during youth group meetings, which is pretty silly.

I’m not really familiar with how the idea plays out in Catholic circles, so I’d need to know where the idea of the man as the “spiritual head” originally comes from. Are we just working with the verses in Ephesians, or are there other resources?

Is it seriously just a command to husbands to sacrifice for their families? And if so, why don’t wives have to do that?

 

[Kamaduck]

Oh, I found some stuff that might be useful:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=52772- this is an “ask an apologist” answer from this very site, which basically says husbands and wives should discuss things and go with whatever seems to be the best option. It also says that the roles of husband and wife are not absolutely defined in the Catechism because for the most part, they just aren’t absolute; the spouses should divide responsibilities according to who is most suited for the task. It also says that wives are not subordinate to their husbands.

jimmyakin.org/2004/04/spiritual_heads.html- This is an answer from Jimmy Akin that says basically the same thing, but with more elaboration and bullet points. Unfortunately, it affirms that men should be the “spiritual leaders” in their families, without really saying what that means.

So while I’ve ruled out several things that “spiritual headship” isn’t, I still have very little idea what it is. :ehh:

 

[Walking_Home]

Thanks walking home for providing is with the real and actual teaching of the church.** It does quite a harm to the church to propagate ideas I’m the me of the church when the church does not teach that.**

And as to both parents having the duty to teach the faith,** again historically the reality is that the mothers have been usually the ones who transmit the fait.** Not saying that is correct, is not as should be both fathers but it has always graspy attention that most great saints: st John bosco, st Francis of Assisi, the holy priest of ars, st Maximilian kolbe even the fagima children, it was always the mother the vehicle to transmit the faith and in many cases…as st Francis with zero participation from the father.

---

Yes – it does harm to the Faith and to people – when erroneous ideas are propagated.

 

[severus68]

It’s interesting that the people who say that don’t seem to notice the word “obey” is not in the Catholic wedding vows. And before someone laments this as a sign of modernity, it wasn’t in the vows before Vatican II.

Yes, a very good point.

 

[severus68]

None of the replies on this thread have anything to do with the original topic. Man as the Spiritual Head of the family. Whether he likes it or not, or whether it is done intentionally, the man holds the leadership role in spiritual matters. It is suggested that way in the Bible, and we can see it is factual because if a man is religious, his children are significantly more likely to be religious themselves that if only the woman is religious. We’ve discussed this before on the threads. I don’t know what’s worth debating about this. Please, nobody take my words and twist them. This doesn’t mean a woman does not matter of have spiritual influence over her family… both parents must work together, but ultimately dad has more of an effect.

In daily life, I see this as the man is actively engaged in going to Mass, and living his faith. Maybe he will initiate prayers at bedtime. Maybe he will be someone the children feel comfortable asking questions about the faith; therefore, he should be knowledgeable about Catholicism. He can’t do it all on his own, not does God expect him to. But that’s what I think of as a job description for spiritual head of household.

I disagree that the father has a more long lasting spiritual influence on the children than the mother. The dynamics in each family is different.

If both parents practise their faith and impart it to their children in a loving way, the children would be more likely to remain in the Church. Otherwise, a child would be more positively influenced by the parent who has a better, closer. relationship with.

 

[severus68]

As to educating the children in the Faith – The Catholic Church entrusted the transmission of the Faith —to** both **parents – and Not specifically the father.

CCC

Thanks.

 

[Book_Worm]

One of the main reasons I began this thread was my discomfort with the idea that the man is the spiritual head because that is not the case in my family and I wondered if I was missing something. (Yes, it is all about me. )

I am a cradle Catholic, with more than 12 years of Catholic school under my belt; DH converted from Methodism when we married. Additionally, I have a greater inclination to learn more about my religion and why and how it is practiced. DH, possibly because religion did not play a large part in his family’s life, believes you attend Mass faithfully and follow the rules of the Church, without a great deal of investigation as to why the rules exist. He is very content to let me figure it out and tell him what’s what. He would have less than no interest in CAF.

We have been married for many years and have raised a DD who is a faithful Catholic who is teaching her children to be good Catholics.

So I wondered why some would say that we are not following the example the Church wants us to follow.

 

[agapewolf]

I disagree that the father has a more long lasting spiritual influence on the children than the mother. The dynamics in each family is different.

If both parents practise their faith and impart it to their children in a loving way, the children would be more likely to remain in the Church. Otherwise, a child would be more positively influenced by the parent who has a better, closer. relationship with.

Nope.

fisheaters.com/menandchurch.html

 

[LightBound]

Nope.

fisheaters.com/menandchurch.html

A link to an article written by a Church of England pastor from a website that isn’t completely faithful to the Magisterium ? :nope:

 

[marymary1975]

One of the main reasons I began this thread was my discomfort with the idea that the man is the spiritual head because that is not the case in my family and I wondered if I was missing something. (Yes, it is all about me. )

I am a arguing that Catholic, with more than 12 years of Catholic school under my belt; DH converted from Methodism when we married. Additionally, I have a greater inclination to learn more about my religion and why and how it is practiced.

We have been married for many years and have raised a DD who is a faithful Catholic who is teaching her children to be good Catholics.

So I wondered why some would say that we are not following the example the Church wants us to follow.

Sincerely, if you have been married for a long time, have a happy marriage, have a daughter who is a practicing catholic and who is inculcating the faith to her own children… Then what you are doing is right. Jesus said that we would be know by our fruits. Your fruits have been good so just keep doing what your doing.

And I want to reiterate, in most great saints families the mother was the spiritual head. St John Bosco is a great example of having faithful parents but the mother was the spiritual head and the product of that was a great saint. Would any of the ones here arguing that the man has to be the spiritual head otherwise something is wrong, would you say that st John Bosco’s family did wrong? Or st Francis’ mom was in the wrong? Or st Maximilian kolbe’s mom violated God’s law?

 

[marymary1975]

---

Yes – it does harm to the Faith and to people – when erroneous ideas are propagated.

And sorry for the misspelling…what I meant to say was when people propagate ideas in the name of the church that are different to the actual teaching of the church but it seems you got the idea

 

[JamesBond007]

The problem here is that people want to interpret the man being the head of the family in isolation from the rest of the paragraph and In isolation from the rest of the scripture, and this is something that has historically been used to justify double standards, to misinterpret the church and that is why it always ends up on this debate. You cannot take sentences out of the bible and isolate them because that goes agaimst Catholic teaching. What the scripture says is that the man is the head of the family as to Christ is to his church. The role of the man is set up by the role Jesus had with his church: service, example and sacrifice. The marriage relationship is compared to Christ being the groom and the church his bride. Men should behave to their wives exactly the same way Christ behave with his church. It is leadership but leadership by service and leadership by example.

Now that is how things “should” be. The second part of the problem is that in reality a big majority of men do not follow this because following Christ’s leadership means to put yourself at the end and means effort and sacrifice. Let’s face it many men just don’t want to do that. A big majority of men want to be the boss in their own terms not Christ’s terms, and feel that being the boss means that religion rules applies to others, i. e. Women and children, but not to the head, i.e. men. As karmaduck pointed out, historically generally speaking statistically women tend to be more faithful and religious than men while too many men have tried to use the model established in the bible with their earthly definition of being the head instead of Christ’s definition of being the head. Both of which are opposite. This earthly corruption of st Paul"s model is what has caused the now a day crisis we see in marriage and that is problem with propaging incorrect ideas on this subject that the church has not approved or different interpretations than what the church says.

. If the man does take his role of leadership following Christ, by servicing by living his faith through example, by being compassionate, by looking out for the best for his family, by being actively involved in church life, by praying, being faithful etc. Then that is how God wanted things to be. But unfortunately the number of men who do this in the grand scheme of things is a minority.

And what about the woman’s requirements? So a man is supposed to die for his wife while the wife can do as she pleases. Here is the problem, no one balances their genders requirements and prefer to only focus on the others. If a man is doing as Christ does then what is the wife’s requirement? What is that leadership and leading by example doing? Sounds like teaching the wife by example to me hence leading her still. Contradiction number 2.

As I said before, if a man ever find a himself on the situation that his wife wants an abortion unless there has been clear deceipt and misrepresentation and express lies on the part of the woman, it is his fault as is a total lack of good jugmemt to marry a woman who supports abortion so that is not an excuse.

And what happens if the woman changes her mind? Suddenly decides she doesn’t want to jeopardize her career? People’s minds change and its rarely in a more Christ-centered way.

As to educating the children in the Faith – The Catholic Church entrusted the transmission of the Faith —to** both **parents – and Not specifically the father.

CCC

The CCC although insightful neglects research that shows a fathers spiritual life more strongly influences regular church attendance than a mothers. That is scientific fact. Deny it if you like but I didn’t make the data (touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=14-01-026-f and likeateam.com/roles-dads-play-in-the-spiritual-development-of-their-children/)

I disagree that the father has a more long lasting spiritual influence on the children than the mother. The dynamics in each family is different.

If both parents practise their faith and impart it to their children in a loving way, the children would be more likely to remain in the Church. Otherwise, a child would be more positively influenced by the parent who has a better, closer. relationship with.

Not according to the research data (touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=14-01-026-f).

To all:
All religion through the ages has been about 1 thing, keeping hubris in check. Mankind has a nasty problem with ego and doesn’t like to follow. That is clearly apparent even among many who claim to speak for one religion or another. It’s part of the human condition. Men have been charged to give their lives for their wives, and wives have to give something in return too. This is part of “being one flesh” and acting as one. You can’t have 2 pilots anymore than you can have a dictator running a country. We strive for the ideal even if we can’t reach it. There are plenty of women in happy marriages where the husband leads and it works. Telling them “they got it wrong” is as arrogant as it gets. That what “being one flesh” is about.