Sacred Traditions That Supposedly Contradict The Bible

[NotWorthy]

First of all, newbie, let me apologize for the thawing out comment. I didn’t know you’d already responded when I made that.

It doesn’t matter what Martin Luther said.
I can read 2tim3:16-17 and find that the bible can equip me to be complete for every good work. I do not need anyone to translate that for me.

But here is where YOU are contradicting the Bible. No where does it say that the bible is all you need to be equipped for every good work. It says it’s useful or profitable, but it doesn’t say it’s the only thing needed to be complete. The Bible also says that the Church is the Pillar and Bulwark of Truth. It seems that the Bible supports Catholics’ teaching on truth moreso than yours.

Then I look at what the CC teaches from their translation.
Things such as Assumption of Mary, Immaculate conception, papacy from Peter, and a miriad of other things that are contradictory to verses in the bible or have no biblical support.

You’ve failed to show where they are contradictory. They may not be revealed in the bible by reciting any single chapter or verse, but they are all within the Bible.

It’s the “verse-snipping” anyway, that has caused numerous “Traditions of Men”.

• Sola Scriptura
• Sola Fide
• Once Saved, Always Saved
• Unitarian Baptism

It’s verse snipping that has brought up false accusations against Catholic Dogma

• Forgiveness through Confession
• The Real Presence in the Eucharist
• Purgatory
• The Papacy

It is not my intention to debate any of these issues.
In just a few weeks on this site, I have heard many of the Catholic arguements about these issues.
I am not convinced. I am not even swayed in the least.
If you say CC tradition brought us the bible in it’s present form or language, I will accept that.
I only reject traditions that are contrary to the bible.

And yet again, you haven’t adequately shown where our traditions are contrary to the Bible.

 

[newbie1234]

First of all, newbie, let me apologize for the thawing out comment. I didn’t know you’d already responded when I made that.

But here is where YOU are contradicting the Bible. No where does it say that the bible is all you need to be equipped for every good work. It says it’s useful or profitable, but it doesn’t say it’s the only thing needed to be complete. The Bible also says that the Church is the Pillar and Bulwark of Truth. It seems that the Bible supports Catholics’ teaching on truth moreso than yours.

You’ve failed to show where they are contradictory. They may not be revealed in the bible by reciting any single chapter or verse, but they are all within the Bible.

It’s the “verse-snipping” anyway, that has caused numerous “Traditions of Men”.

• Sola Scriptura
• Sola Fide
• Once Saved, Always Saved
• Unitarian Baptism

It’s verse snipping that has brought up false accusations against Catholic Dogma

• Forgiveness through Confession
• The Real Presence in the Eucharist
• Purgatory
• The Papacy

And yet again, you haven’t adequately shown where our traditions are contrary to the Bible.

I see contradictions between your sacred traditions and biblical verses. The people in my church see the contradictions.
And most protestants see the same ones.
And evangelicals see the same contradictions.
And almost anyone who studies the bible and is NOT catholic.
BUT…
YOU don’t see any contradictions between sacred traditions and the bible.
The cardinals and popes don’t see the contradictions either.
So,I am not trying to convince you of anything.
I’ve given up.
I am not looking to debate Mary, or papal infallibility, or transubstantiation, or anything else.
If your beliefs make sense to you that is fine with me.
All these threads seem to be going around in circles.
If you read 2tim3:16-17, and need someone to explain it to you that is fine. To me, it says that I can be complete by using the scripture.
If I choose to use the scripture AND something else(tradition), I can still be complete. But I don’t NEED anything else.
YOU NEED something else(sacred tradition, magisterium,etc) because that is what you are taught.
BTW, I’m back home from a great tripark city, brighton, olympic village, the Mormon HQ in SLC, Bryce canyon, Zion.
Everyone made it home safe. We were blessed!

 

[Tomster]

It doesn’t matter what Martin Luther said.
I can read 2tim3:16-17 and find that the bible can equip me to be complete for every good work. I do not need anyone to translate that for me.
Then I look at what the CC teaches from their translation.
Things such as Assumption of Mary, Immaculate conception, papacy from Peter, and a miriad of other things that are contradictory to verses in the bible or have no biblical support.
It is not my intention to debate any of these issues.
In just a few weeks on this site, I have heard many of the Catholic arguements about these issues.
I am not convinced. I am not even swayed in the least.
If you say CC tradition brought us the bible in it’s present form or language, I will accept that.
I only reject traditions that are contrary to the bible.

From a previous post - “My faith is based on what the Bible teaches.” (Sola Scriptura ? ? ?)

Now on this post you are telling us “I only reject traditions that are contrary to the Bible.” And on top of that you say that you are not even swayed in the least.

So maybe you can tell us what traditions are not contrary to the Bible and how those traditions square with the debunked man-made tradition of Sola Scripture.

 

[newbie1234]

From a previous post - “My faith is based on what the Bible teaches.” (Sola Scriptura ? ? ?)

Now on this post you are telling us “I only reject traditions that are contrary to the Bible.” And on top of that you say that you are not even swayed in the least.

So maybe you can tell us what traditions are not contrary to the Bible and how those traditions square with the debunked man-made tradition of Sola Scripture.

Let’s take the tradition of going to church on Sunday.
God ordained the Sabbath to be on Saturday as the Jews still practice.
But if we read Rom14:5-6, we find that the day really doesn’t matter, so the tradition of worship and rest on Sunday is a tradition that is in line with the bible.
On the other hand, the tradition of : if I willfully miss mass on Sunday, it is a mortal sin and I will not get into heaven unless I repent. This tradition has no biblical support so I do not follow it.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

If you read 2tim3:16-17, and need someone to explain it to you that is fine. To me, it says that I can be complete by using the scripture.

Alright, let’s examine what it actually says. Does it say that I Bible is all I need? Or that using it is a good thing and practice?

How about we use a little analogy. Once a year you go to see your doctor to check that everything is alright. While you are there he gives you some practical information. One of the things he tells you is that “vitamins are useful for keeping yourself healthy and fit”.
Will you understand that you will be complete by using eating only vitamins? Do you go home, throw away all your food and start eating just vitamins for breakfast, lunch and dinner?

Do you still not see what the passage is telling us?

---

And let me ask you one question, why do you not want to discuss them? If you really believe that you are right and that you are being guided by the holy spirit, the only thing that will likely happen is that many of the member on this board will come to see the truth. Unless of course you arewrong and in that case do you not want to discuss and know where the truth lies?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Let’s take the tradition of going to church on Sunday.
God ordained the Sabbath to be on Saturday as the Jews still practice.
But if we read Rom14:5-6, we find that the day really doesn’t matter, so the tradition of worship and rest on Sunday is a tradition that is in line with the bible.
On the other hand, the tradition of : if I willfully miss mass on Sunday, it is a mortal sin and I will not get into heaven unless I repent. This tradition has no biblical support so I do not follow it.

Really now? Peter said in Acts, "“Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Acts Chapter 2 verse 38

“If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.” 1 John 5 verse 16-17.

And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” John 20:22-23

Sounds very Biblical to me…

 

[NotWorthy]

I see contradictions between your sacred traditions and biblical verses. The people in my church see the contradictions.
And most protestants see the same ones.
And evangelicals see the same contradictions.
And almost anyone who studies the bible and is NOT catholic.
BUT…

OK, so that still puts YOU in a minority of all Christians with this belief, my friend.

YOU don’t see any contradictions between sacred traditions and the bible.
The cardinals and popes don’t see the contradictions either.
So,I am not trying to convince you of anything.
I’ve given up.
I am not looking to debate Mary, or papal infallibility, or transubstantiation, or anything else.
If your beliefs make sense to you that is fine with me.
All these threads seem to be going around in circles.

These “circles” didn’t seem to have many problems for 100’s of years. But enough said, let’s continue

If you read 2tim3:16-17, and need someone to explain it to you that is fine. To me, it says that I can be complete by using the scripture.
If I choose to use the scripture AND something else(tradition), I can still be complete. But I don’t NEED anything else.
YOU NEED something else(sacred tradition, magisterium,etc) because that is what you are taught.

No, WE NEED Sacred Tradition and Magisterium because that is what Jesus taught us. For many decades, and you could argue for 100’s of years, that the Church relied 100% on Sacred Tradition, for we had no Sacred Scripture, other than the OT.

Did Jesus leave us a book? No, “Upon you I will build my Church”.

Did Jesus teach us obedience? Yes, “He who rejects you, rejects me. And he who rejects me rejects the one who sent me”.

Did Jesus give the Church the power to grow or to remain stagnant in an everchanging world? To Grow, “Whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven…”

Did Jesus give the Church the authority to teach His ways? Yes, “All power in heaven is given to me, go therefore to all the nations, baptizing them and teaching them ALL I HAVE COMMANDED…”

BTW, I’m back home from a great tripark city, brighton, olympic village, the Mormon HQ in SLC, Bryce canyon, Zion.
Everyone made it home safe. We were blessed!

God Bless you and your family for the safe and wonderful trip. I recently broke both my legs and your snowboarding comment reminded me that I’ll never be able to ski or snowboard, so I sort of went vicariously through you!

God bless again!

 

[Michael_Francis]

Just for sanity’s sake, let me strongly recommend that you guys let Newbie provide a list of his own and then perhaps take item #1 and beat it to death before moving to item # 2, etc.

Otherwise this thread will be so confused that no one can follow it.

I may, if Newbie or someone will let me know when you are ready to change topics, come in and close this one and then move that beginning post to a new thread and that way each thread will remain focused and informative.
MF

 

[NotWorthy]

Believers, this may be a good time to bring up where your faith doesn’t jive with Sacred Scripture.

Why do you reject that a man, such as a Catholic Priest, can forgive our sins, as Jesus clearly commanded in John chapter 20 (20-21). Matthew even supports this when, after the forgiveness and healing of the paralytic, "all the people praised God for giving this power to men".

 

[NotWorthy]

Also, I’ve read through Timothy again, and no where does it command me that all Scripture is the only thing necessary to make me holy and complete.

It says it is useful, or profitable. This seems to indicate that it is part of a whole, or another piece of the puzzle, as it were.

 

[NotWorthy]

Just for sanity’s sake, let me strongly recommend that you guys let Newbie provide a list of his own and then perhaps take item #1 and beat it to death before moving to item # 2, etc.

OK, if sanity’s involved, am I still able to participate?

P.S. Point taken

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Yes, NotWorthy makes a very good point - one that I completely forgot to mentioned in my previous post. Lets once again look at what the 2 Timothy 3:16-17 passage says:

“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

If scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training, doesn’t it imply that there is something else besides the scripture?

Hmmm, let’s examine this claim.

Can you say that Christ’s sacrifice was helpful for our salvation? Don’t you think that claiming that would be a heresy? If yes, why?
Something can only be helpful if there is something else capable of doing the same thing. If we would say that Christ’s sacrifice was helpful then we would logically imply that it’s profitable, yet one may take another path to salvation without the need of Christ. If Bible would be the only thing that can be used it would not be helpful - it would be absolutely necessary. Therefore logically we must conclude that there are other things besides Sacred Scripture.

Sacred Tradition perhaps?

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes, NotWorthy makes a very good point - one that I completely forgot to mentioned in my previous post. Lets once again look at what the 2 Timothy 3:16-17 passage says:

“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

If scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training, doesn’t it imply that there is something else besides the scripture?

Hmmm, let’s examine this claim.

Can you say that Christ’s sacrifice was helpful for our salvation? Don’t you think that claiming that would be a heresy? If yes, why?
Something can only be helpful if there is something else capable of doing the same thing. If we would say that Christ’s sacrifice was helpful then we would logically imply that it’s profitable, yet one may take another path to salvation without the need of Christ. If Bible would be the only thing that can be used it would not be helpful - it would be absolutely necessary. Therefore logically we must conclude that there are other things besides Sacred Scripture.

Sacred Tradition perhaps?

My answer was going to be Bingo, but I think Sacred Tradition better fits.

But what else is necessary? Let’s go to the Bible.

Faith?

Love?

Obedience?

Maybe all of the above?

 

[newbie1234]

Yes, NotWorthy makes a very good point - one that I completely forgot to mentioned in my previous post. Lets once again look at what the 2 Timothy 3:16-17 passage says:

“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

If scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training, doesn’t it imply that there is something else besides the scripture?

Hmmm, let’s examine this claim.

Can you say that Christ’s sacrifice was helpful for our salvation? Don’t you think that claiming that would be a heresy? If yes, why?
Something can only be helpful if there is something else capable of doing the same thing. If we would say that Christ’s sacrifice was helpful then we would logically imply that it’s profitable, yet one may take another path to salvation without the need of Christ. If Bible would be the only thing that can be used it would not be helpful - it would be absolutely necessary. Therefore logically we must conclude that there are other things besides Sacred Scripture.

Sacred Tradition perhaps?

How about we take out a few of the words:
Scripture is used to make the man of God complete.
My nkjv uses the word ‘complete.’
My point is that I can use the scripture alone to be complete.
If YOU cannot be complete without your tradition, that is you, not me.

 

[newbie1234]

Really now? Peter said in Acts, "“Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Acts Chapter 2 verse 38

“If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.” 1 John 5 verse 16-17.

And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” John 20:22-23

Sounds very Biblical to me…

No where does it say that missing mass is a mortal sin. That is church tradition.

 

[NotWorthy]

How about we take out a few of the words:
Scripture is used to make the man of God complete.
My nkjv uses the word ‘complete.’
My point is that I can use the scripture alone to be complete.
If YOU cannot be complete without your tradition, that is you, not me.

But you are still reading more into it than it says.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Yes, Scriptures are necessary to make you complete, but they are not the ONLY thing necessary. The are profitable to you but not the only necessity. There are OTHER necessities, now wouldn’t there be?

 

[newbie1234]

But you are still reading more into it than it says.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Yes, Scriptures are necessary to make you complete, but they are not the ONLY thing necessary. The are profitable to you but not the only necessity. There are OTHER necessities, now wouldn’t there be?

There could be other things, but there doesn’t have to be other things.
Just because you need sacred tradition, doesn’t mean I need sacred tradition. I can be complete using scripture alone. Of course I use other things such as fellowship,and prayer, to make me complete.

 

[NotWorthy]

There could be other things, but there doesn’t have to be other things.
Just because you need sacred tradition, doesn’t mean I need sacred tradition. I can be complete using scripture alone. Of course I use other things such as fellowship,and prayer, to make me complete.

“He who rejects you, rejects me…”
It sounds like to reject Sacred Tradition is to reject Him.

 

[teachccd]

Newbie1234 I’m a confused Catholic.


James chapter 1 verse 4 says" And let perseverance be perfect, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." (NAB)

So which is it? Sola Scriptura or Sola Perseverance?? You’re the Bible expert. I’m just a poor Magisterium guided Catholic.

 

[newbie1234]

Newbie1234 I’m a confused Catholic.


James chapter 1 verse 4 says" And let perseverance be perfect, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." (NAB)

So which is it? Sola Scriptura or Sola Perseverance?? You’re the Bible expert. I’m just a poor Magisterium guided Catholic.

James 1:4 is talking about trials that we all face.
Trials produce patience.
Patience is part of perfection.
So accept your trials with joy!
No where in the chapter does it say that we reach perfection by sacred tradition or magisterium.
Read verse five if you lack wisdom.