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Hisalone said:
So we can agree there are 150 psalms?😉
benedict within one generation Isreal went from its pinacle to idolatry led by the wisest man the world has ever known. Why do you not believe we are not in danger of the same? We have Christ yes but they had the shekinah glory. You say Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail that doesnt mean we (the church) will not err.
I understand the Catholic belief of the communion of saints and although I dont have the same belief there is no major problem here.
The excesses I see are statues, the shrines and other devotions.
I am in agreement for :grouphug:
Peace
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i am very glad you are for :grouphug:Jesus either meant what he said or he didnt. and no the Church has never erred in doctrine. we also have the Holy Spirit living in us. we also have Christ physically present with us in the Eucharist. and we have the intercession of the saints on our behalf. we are in a much better covenant than israel ever had. although individuals may fall away, the Church will stand firm until the end of the age. if the Lord tarries for another 1000 years, the Catholic Church will still be here as the visible Body of Christ. how many protestant denominations now in existence can you say the same about? God bless you and yours.
 
Hisalone said:
How does your Divine Liturgy differ from the Mass?

Can you not extend that same level of thinking to the youtube worship I provided?
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Go to a Mass then, I don’t care, I’ve never been to one myself, but from what I understand of them they most certainly count as worship, although they are certainly different.

And no, what you posted was a concert which people went to to be entertained.
 
Steven_John said:
???

I dont think Muslims would agree, can you site a source for this?

Bless you pray well and stay well
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Well you’re talking to someone who has already said he can’t tell the difference between worship and veneration, and Muslims most certainly venerate it, so it stands to reason he would believe they worship it.
 
Hisalone said:
The Orthodox interest me not as in a leading but as a better understanding of.
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That’s fine, but the Divine Liturgy is the very center of Orthodox life. We can be nothing more than a curiousity to anyone who does not understand our worship.
 
Nine_Two said:
Well you’re talking to someone who has already said he can’t tell the difference between worship and veneration, and Muslims most certainly venerate it, so it stands to reason he would believe they worship it.
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For me and this is not to inflame any one veneration is like a weakness.

Humans want an object to be dedicated wholely for holiness. I have seen people make a wooden cross and all touch it and fly it around the world for others to share in, in the same way. I guess i see it as a medium people use to spread goodwill and i am sure G-d does at times get a deeper contact with us.

I say its a weakness because of course He can and we can do the same without any medium.

Humans also do a similar by clinging and invoking people they percived seeing G-ds will being done through. They share in doing the same again i guess it a weakness of our benefit to have our of our 5 senses stimulated by G-ds presence.

Worship is crediting and submiting to G-d who is the source and end of these images we venerate.

So looking through this lense veneration can be a beneficial practice to our G-d relationship making it easy to get a focus on getting little closer than we are.

My understanding is Muslims venerate the Kabah because they were instructed to by Mahomed (pbuh).

My experince of Hajis is they feel it was beneficial to their relationship with Allah.
 
Hisalone said:
Naw I am not offended, I came for curiuosity, and have stayed to give some balance I honestly beleive Catholics are in denial as to who they are as opposed to who they say they are.
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Mind expounding on the last sentence? Does this have to do with appearances as we spoke in another thread?
 
benidict said:
i am very glad you are for :grouphug:Jesus either meant what he said or he didnt. and no the Church has never erred in doctrine. we also have the Holy Spirit living in us. we also have Christ physically present with us in the Eucharist. and we have the intercession of the saints on our behalf. we are in a much better covenant than israel ever had. although individuals may fall away, the Church will stand firm until the end of the age. if the Lord tarries for another 1000 years, the Catholic Church will still be here as the visible Body of Christ. how many protestant denominations now in existence can you say the same about? God bless you and yours.
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When did Jesus say the Church would never err?
 
Nine_Two said:
Go to a Mass then, I don’t care, I’ve never been to one myself, but from what I understand of them they most certainly count as worship, although they are certainly different.

And no, what you posted was a concert which people went to to be entertained.
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I have been to Mass that is why I ask.
What I posted was a worship service if you look at the reverance of each and every musician the faces posture and the sincerity of the worshipers,there was not one camera shot of a board, fallen asleep participant there is no doubt they are in the midst of worship.

You are correct the film clip does not due it justice. Howver anyone who enters in this worship even over youtube will know the presence of God.
 
Hisalone said:
I have been to Mass that is why I ask.
What I posted was a worship service if you look at the reverance of each and every musician the faces posture and the sincerity of the worshipers,there was not one camera shot of a board, fallen asleep participant there is no doubt they are in the midst of worship.

You are correct the film clip does not due it justice. Howver anyone who enters in this worship even over youtube will know the presence of God.
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I have no doubt they are sincere, they just aren’t worshipping, and if not being bored or falling asleep is the definition of worshipping God, then most certainly even Atheists worship like monks!
Just because there is worship going on in a given place doesn’t mean everyone is worshipping. And even if you could convince me that those band members were deep in worship, the audience is not, they are simply concert goers.

I’ve been to many concerts like that, and while I can sense a desire of the people to get closer to God, I still will not call it worship.
 
My church has a small section of pews and then a wide open space. I prefer standing at the pews just because I’m big on having personal space. Only time I sit down though is the sermon or if I’m not feeling well. 🙂
 
Nine_Two said:
Well you’re talking to someone who has already said he can’t tell the difference between worship and veneration, and Muslims most certainly venerate it, so it stands to reason he would believe they worship it.
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I know worship what you have not demonstrated is your ability to seperate the two

Main Entry: 1wor·ship
Pronunciation: \ˈwər-shəp also ˈwȯr-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English worshipe worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, from Old English weorthscipe worthiness, respect, from weorth worthy, worth + -scipe -shipDate: before 12th century
1 chiefly British : a person of importance —used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2 : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4 : extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem
 
Hisalone said:
I know worship what you have not demonstrated is your ability to seperate the two

Main Entry: 1wor·ship
Pronunciation: \ˈwər-shəp also ˈwȯr-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English worshipe worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, from Old English weorthscipe worthiness, respect, from weorth worthy, worth + -scipe -shipDate: before 12th century
1 chiefly British : a person of importance —used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2 : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4 : extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem
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Well, your own definition vendicates us of worship of saints then, doesn’t it? Although it doesn’t make a concert where a guy sings about worshipping god actual worship.
 
Been to many four to four and a half services. Dont know if that is short by your standards.
How is it different. Can you defend you position without offending mine?
 
Nine_Two said:
I have no doubt they are sincere, they just aren’t worshipping, and if not being bored or falling asleep is the definition of worshipping God, then most certainly even Atheists worship like monks!
Just because there is worship going on in a given place doesn’t mean everyone is worshipping. And even if you could convince me that those band members were deep in worship, the audience is not, they are simply concert goers.

I’ve been to many concerts like that, and while I can sense a desire of the people to get closer to God, I still will not call it worship.
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You have tried to tell us what worship is not yet cannot tell us what worship is, why should anyone believe you?
Concert goers have their eyes wide open these folks dont.
You have demonstrated that you have really not watched the video so again why should anyone believe you?
 
Hisalone said:
You have tried to tell us what worship is not yet cannot tell us what worship is, why should anyone believe you?
Concert goers have their eyes wide open these folks dont.
You have demonstrated that you have really not watched the video so again why should anyone believe you?
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No, I like the dictionary definition you gave, insofar as a dictionary definition goes.

Clearly I disagree with you and therefore I haven’t watched the video. Please don’t call me a liar.
 
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