Sade vs Rand: thoughts on atheism and morality

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I would argue it could be. Such as evolution, desirable traits that have evolved throughout time. One could always throw in some utilitarianism I guess.
 
Hume said:
The religion doesn’t matter, in itself.
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It might matter. It could certainly be the case that the 5 religions I’ve mentioned all possess and embody substantial truth, goodness and beauty, and that is precisely what has explained much of their success, while other religions have passed into history books.
Hume said:
I’m still a bit puzzled over whether we’ve fully transcended a need for it or not.
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I’m certainly unclear as to what that would look like. Much less convinced that it’s possible to “transcend” our restless hearts that ever yearn for more and more (if not the Ultimate).
 
VanitasVanitatum said:
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Freddy:
I haven’t made any attempt yet far. I would have thought that pointing out that it was proposed by the Son of God might have lent it some credibility.

Are you suggesting that I need to show what Jesus told us has some validity? Surely not…
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That only works if morality is objective, but you don’t believe in that do you?
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A belief in objective morality or not has nothing whatsoever to do with a practical application of the golden rule. I’m pretty certain that you do, so apply it and see where it gets you.
 
Freddy said:
A belief in objective morality or not has nothing whatsoever to do with a practical application of the golden rule. I’m pretty certain that you do, so apply it and see where it gets you.
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I can see where it gets me and I would prefer indifference if I were to focus on my own wants.
StudentMI said:
Such as evolution, desirable traits that have evolved throughout time.
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What is desirable is in the eye of the beholder and whether evolution even plays a part in that anymore or if it is to be trusted is still questionable.
StudentMI said:
One could always throw in some utilitarianism I guess.
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Utilitarianism is usually directed towards some goal and what that is is disputable too.
 
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Magnanimity said:
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Hume:
The religion doesn’t matter, in itself.
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It might matter. It could certainly be the case that the 5 religions I’ve mentioned all possess and embody substantial truth, goodness and beauty, and that is precisely what has explained much of their success, while other religions have passed into history books.
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So here’s an interesting hypothetical. If all knowledge and everything associated with all religions simply dissapeared at midnight tonight and we all woke up without any memory of Christianity or Bhuddism or Hinduism etc, what would be the result.

Some have already suggested that without religion (specifically Christianity) there would be mayhem.
 
VanitasVanitatum said:
All it takes are example of that happening which isn’t hard.
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You can call Kant’s categorical imperative a self-evident truth, does that help? Like the Golden Rule—how do you know that it’s an excellent moral principle? Don’t you just recognize that it is so? Confucius said that you should avoid doing to others what you don’t want them to do to you. That’s a sound moral principle isn’t it? What makes it true? The source of it? No. You recognize its truth via your conscience and human experience.

How else, I’d like to know, could you ever come to realize the truth of any moral principle?
 
Hmmm. That’s heavy.

I honestly think as opposed to mass violence you would see mass depression. Though I am a Catholic, I do think religion supplies a crutch for a lot of people.

I also think you would see violence continue where it’s currently going on. Most are not driven by religion but by politics and those same types of struggles would continue.
 
VanitasVanitatum said:
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Freddy:
A belief in objective morality or not has nothing whatsoever to do with a practical application of the golden rule. I’m pretty certain that you do, so apply it and see where it gets you.
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I can see where it gets me and I would prefer indifference if I was focus on my own wants.
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C’mon, Vanitas. You know the golden rule is not meant to focus on your wants. It focuses on how to treat people as you would wish to be treated.

I still can’t fathom your reticence to accept the teachings of Jesus. Here’s an atheist trying to convince a Catholic that it would be a great idea to accept what the Son of God tells us we should do.
 
StudentMI said:
Hmmm. That’s heavy.

I honestly think as opposed to mass violence you would see mass depression. Though I am a Catholic, I do think religion supplies a crutch for a lot of people.

I also think you would see violence continue where it’s currently going on. Most are not driven by religion but by politics and those same types of struggles would continue.
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But what would replace religion? Assuming that we accept that it’s a human need.
 
I think I might have the answer to the debate between Freddy and Vanitas. And I hate to say it, but I’m going to appeal to Rand.

Existence exists. You can both agree on that. And as individual actors you both have certain needs and desires. Relying solely on self interest, you could each set up a contract between yourselves that would stipulate no violence will be done by one upon the other.

Even if not morality that’s certainly an ethical system.
 
Freddy said:
C’mon, Vanitas. You know the golden rule is not meant to focus on your wants. It focuses on how to treat people as you would wish to be treated.
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I understand that, the issue with that is why when there are other alternatives.
Magnanimity said:
You can call Kant’s categorical imperative a self-evident truth, does that help? Like the Golden Rule—how do you know that it’s an excellent moral principle? Don’t you just recognize that it is so? Confucius said that you should avoid doing to others what you don’t want them to do to you. That’s a sound moral principle isn’t it? What makes it true? The source of it? No. You recognize its truth via your conscience and human experience.

How else, I’d like to know, could you ever come to realize the truth of any moral principle?
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There are many societies that didn’t practice or recognize the golden rule.
 
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Freddy said:
But what would replace religion? Assuming that we accept that it’s a human need.
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Hmmm. I want to appeal to Rand again and say enlightened self interest but I honestly can’t say for sure.
 
Freddy said:
So here’s an interesting hypothetical. If all knowledge and everything associated with all religions simply dissapeared at midnight tonight and we all woke up without any memory of Christianity or Bhuddism or Hinduism etc, what would be the result.
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I imagine we’d just start inventing stuff. It would be like the Greeks and Norse all over again! Except all the gods now would just be Marvel and DC comics characters. Like @Hume acknowledged, there’s that inexorable tug toward the transcendent in just about all of us. There is something wildly circular about a religion and it’s practitioner. The practitioner comes to it (or endures in it) bc it appeals to something innate within her, that she already has an inkling is true and good. It’s Platonic. We recognize the true, the good and the beautiful. And there’s no sidestepping this transcendental itch we feel we need to scratch.
 
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VanitasVanitatum said:
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Freddy:
C’mon, Vanitas. You know the golden rule is not meant to focus on your wants. It focuses on how to treat people as you would wish to be treated.
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I understand that, the issue with that is why when there are other alternatives.
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Nobody said that there weren’t alternatives. But surely a teaching by Jesus comes high on any list of any of the methods to determine a moral viewpoint. So surely you must accept it as being an entirely valid proposal. And I still can’t get over the fact that I am trying to convince a Catholic of the benefits of listening to, and accepting, that which Jesus taught us…
 
I would also say they didn’t last very long, probably. Most societies have some form of the Golden rule.
 
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