B
Bill_Pick
Guest
its hard to believe that the bible that the church wrote is saying what you think it is saying, have a good night
- Status
N
NonCatholic
Guest
I hope you are kidding; monasteries producing holier priests? I guess that no one wants to be holy anymore, since they are and have been in sharp decline. Furthermore some of the horrible stories that come out of there would explain the decline.
Hey…at least you admit the history, which I commend you for.
Jesus also said it wasn’t for everyone, which by the obvious scandals within the …would confirm this.
N
NonCatholic
Guest
Another well thought out response…keep up the good work and I hope you sleep well. Good night and sweet dreams.
N
NDfan
Guest
Bill it seems your keyboard has not been functioning right for quite some time. How about responding to my posts directly instead of making a derogatory comment. That would be a good start.
N
NDfan
Guest
Please tell me what euaharistic miracles you are referring to. If you are referring to some of the claims that the bread turns into flesh and the wine into literal blood, I’m sorry but I take those with a rain of salt.
Yes I’m familiar with this one and it gets posted on these forums all the time. It seems to be the only one that ever gets talked about. As stated above I take them with a grain of salt. Similar to statues crying, toast looking like Mary etc.and whatever else you may want to throw into the mix. Now how do we know it is GOD and not Satan??*a monastic priest in lanciano, italy during the 700 a.d. doubted whether the Body of Our Lord was truly present in the consecrated Host. he celebrated Mass and when he said the words of consecration, he saw the host turn into Flesh and the wine turn into Blood. everything was visible to those in attendance. the Flesh is still intact and the Blood is divided into five unequal parts which together have the exact same weight as each one does separately. the miracle was the object of several official acknowledgements on the part of ecclesiastical authorities between 1574 and 1886, not to mention most recently in 1971, when it was subjected to a scientific examination carried out by doctors linoli and bertelli in sienna,italy w/c concluded: "The Flesh is true human flesh (formed by muscular tissue from the heart); the Blood is true blood(belonging to the same blood type, AB, as the flesh) the component substances are those of human tissues, normal and fresh. the conservation of the Flesh and the Blood, left in their natural state for 12th centuries, and exposed to the influence of atmospheric and biological elements, remains an extraordinary phenomenon (the Linoli Report). visitors can still witness the Body and Blood at st. francis church after more than 1200 years of existence. there are many more miracles of hosts turning into his Body and Blood, but for the unbelievers, no proof is enough, as their eyes are permanently veiled.*
God bless.
B
Benadam
Guest
Admittedly vocations for the religious life has been in decline for decades. There is no doubt that the west once a christian culture is dechristinized and rechristianizing it is akin to exorcizing the seven more powerfull demons Jesus spoke about that return finding the house swept and tidied. I fear that the spiritual heyday of that monastic movement is destined to return only in part but I doubt it will ever be what it once was. On the other hand don’t let the failings of those who entered keep you from seeing the positive effects it certainly does provide. A prayer life that has reached contemplative levels requires an environment removed somewhat from the cares of the world unless God decides to purge through other means for some other special purpose.
Thnks! Confessing sins is at the very least sacramental and leads to reconciliation.
And therein lies the problem. The discernment process is being reformed as we speak.
N
NonCatholic
Guest
Hi NDfan,
You are correct on the keyboard issue…I’ve seen it many times; same excuse or lie.
You are asking for a miracle in a direct response, because if you get one…will it make any sense?..we can continue to be in prayer and hope God will open the hearts and minds of all of us.
God bless you!
N
NonCatholic
Guest
You are a breath of fresh air!Admittedly vocations for the religious life has been in decline for decades. There is no doubt that the west once a christian culture is dechristinized and rechristianizing it is akin to exorcizing the seven more powerfull demons Jesus spoke about that return finding the house swept and tidied. I fear that the spiritual heyday of that monastic movement is destined to return only in part but I doubt it will ever be what it once was. On the other hand don’t let the failings of those who entered keep you from seeing the positive effects it certainly does provide. A prayer life that has reached contemplative levels requires an environment removed somewhat from the cares of the world unless God decides to purge through other means for some other special purpose.
Confessing sins is at the very least sacramental and leads to reconciliation.
And therein lies the problem. The discernment process is being reformed as we speak.
B
Benadam
Guest
Thanks Ben.
I can’t take credit for fresh air because I’ve only just recently been provided the tools to understand the proper way to relate to the view your tradition maintains. The current Pope is able to express in simple eneogh language the dificulties Jesus presented to the Jews of his time and consequently today as well. In his book Jesus of Nazareth he cites a Jewish theologian he has a very high respect for often. The Jewish theologian Benedict cites presents intellectually sound and honest reasons a Jewish person would not see Jesus as the messiah.
He also states that the enterpretation of scriptures held by the Jews before Jesus was not invalid and can’t be considered to be in light of the Jewish traditions.
N
NDfan
Guest
No you worship a piece of bread you believe the Priest has literally turned into a piece of flesh of Jesus.
You need to re-read scripture. Christ asks does this offend you. Then what if you saw the son of man return from whence he came. It is the spirit that gives life the flesh profits nothing. Meaning eating my flesh does nothing, it’s believing ME in the spirit that gives life.
It wasn’t until after Jesus made this statement many left. Verses 60-65 Jesus clarifies HIS teaching. Verse 66 is when they start leaving yet you try to make the poor argument that Christ never clarified HIMSELF.
Partaking in communion is a Christian’s outward expression of their belief in Christ. It’s professing that you believe in the new covenant that Christ established during passover. As Augustine stated if you believe you have already eaten. Believing in Christ is what feeds our soul not eating a piece of HIS literal flesh. Try studying the Jewish Seder meal to really understand what was happening the night Christ instituted HIS supper. You will find that Christ used the 3rd cup of redemption which SYMBOLIZED the blood of the lambs slain prior to the exodus to now SYMBOLIZE HIS Blood. The 3rd cup taken after the Seder meal was red wine mixed with warm water and was never believed to be real blood.
Unfortunately you believe in a man mad doctrine that completely counters a command from GOD to not eat the blood of any living being. Before accusing me of not believing in Christ’s teachings please check the origin of your beliefs then we can do a valid comparison.
No Christ IS the bread from Heaven but as Christ stated not like the bread the Jews ate in the desert and still died. HE’s trying to tell the Jews eating bread that gives physical nourishment does not give eternal life, even the bread that GOD sent when they were in the dessert. Believing in Christ is what gives eternal life and is the will of the Father as outlined in John 6. Somehow you want to skip the entire message and cherry pick verses that support your ridiculous claim. Even leading RC scholars admit that scripture in no way states anything close to the doctrine of transubstantiation. No ECF ever used John 6 to describe the Lord’s supper. Point in fact Augustine preached against John 6 as being a literal teaching yet he believed in the real presence just as I do. He stated that if you believe you have already eaten. Given that Christ would never ask us to break the law HE must then be speaking figuratively.
This comment demonstrates your lack of understanding of your own teachings. The RC preaches that you are in fact eating Jesus ordinary human flesh and blood. It was HIS earthly flesh and blood that was sacrificed at the cross. The church always taught Jesus was 100% divine and 100% human. But there was no mixing of the 2 as they were mutually exclusive. This was to prevent the heretics from claiming the church taught Jesus received HIS divinity from Mary.
Every single miracle Jesus performed was to appeal to our senses so that we understood exactly what HE was doing. Healing the blind, raising the dead, healing the sick etc. etc. Yet you want to preach that a miracle happens to the bread and wine that we cannot see, feel, hear, touch or smell. Given that I trust Christ when HE speaks then I will take HIM at HIS word when HE states and I quote:
"I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
Fruit of the vine is a fancy way of saying wine. Jesus HIMSELF calls the cup wine even after HE pronounces it to be the cup of the new covenant in HIS blood. HE never says cup of HIS blood. HE then states HE will drink it NEW in GOD’s kingdom. How can HIS blood be new in Heaven when Christ already had HIS glorified body from the resurrection. Why would Christ drink HIS own human blood in Heaven anyway when GOD forbids it.
You may not want to start a debate on the validity of your bible. That is a debate you will surely lose. The 66 books represent the official canon that was accepted prior to Martin Luther ever existing. Jerome who compiled the Latin Vulgate readily admitted that it was not an inspired translation/interpretation and advised to use the original languages of Hebrew and Greek to make corrections. The Latin Vulgate translated into English you probably read has over 10,000 textual errors. I you’d like I can start listing some for you to demonstrate. Jerome like many popes also stated the apocryphal books should only be used for edification and never for doctrines of faith. It might also interest you to know Martin Luther included the apocryphal books in his German translation and placed them between the OT and NT. He never reduced the Bible down to anything. Obviously your knowledge-base is sorely lacking so might I suggest you refrain from accusing someone else of being immature spiritually when it is your own ignorance that is showing in this discussion. I do not mean that in a disrespectful way. Merely to point out that your arguments are not grounded in 100% truth.
PEACE
N
NDfan
Guest
Yes quite humorous. That’s OK you gotta love Bill.
Well I’m hopeful that Bill will engage in a meaningful conversation.
PEACE and GOD Bless you too
B
Benadam
Guest
M
MelanieAnne
Guest
Those of you who wonder why your posts are not answered need to become familiar with the “ignore” function of the forum.
When someone has YOU on “ignore” they do not see your posts. You can post as often as you like, but even if you respond to them directly, if they have you on “ignore” they will not see it. That is what “ignore” is all about.
I can only tell you how it works, I cannot explain to you WHY someone would choose to do this. They alone know the reason. But suffice it to say that there may be a reason why someone is not responding…
When someone has YOU on “ignore” they do not see your posts. You can post as often as you like, but even if you respond to them directly, if they have you on “ignore” they will not see it. That is what “ignore” is all about.
I can only tell you how it works, I cannot explain to you WHY someone would choose to do this. They alone know the reason. But suffice it to say that there may be a reason why someone is not responding…
B
Benadam
Guest
I would gladly answer if you answer the same question as it pertains to the spirit you claim guides your understanding of the meaning of scripture. How do you discern that it is the Holy Spirit and not the evil spirit or your own human spirit.
E
Ethan_Enoch
Guest
I don’t really want to get caught up in this debate, but I do want to comment on this:
The LORD is a shield, 11 times:
Gen. 15:1, Deut. 33:29, 2 Sam. 22:31, Ps. 3:3, 18:2, 28:7, 33:20, 84:11, 115:9,10,11.
God is a rock, 20 times:
Deut. 32:4,15,18, 1 Sam. 2:2, 2 Sam. 22:3,32,47, 23:3, Ps. 18:2,31,46, 42:9, 62:7, 78:35, 89:26, 94:22, Isa. 17:10, 26:4, 44:8, Hab. 1:12.
We need to interpret whether something in Scripture is literal or not based on its context, not the number of times it occurs.
Who told you that? That is not a rule of Bible interpretation at all. If we used it we would get a lot of very warped theology. Scripture tends to use the same metaphors over and over again. A couple examples of this:
The LORD is a shield, 11 times:
Gen. 15:1, Deut. 33:29, 2 Sam. 22:31, Ps. 3:3, 18:2, 28:7, 33:20, 84:11, 115:9,10,11.
God is a rock, 20 times:
Deut. 32:4,15,18, 1 Sam. 2:2, 2 Sam. 22:3,32,47, 23:3, Ps. 18:2,31,46, 42:9, 62:7, 78:35, 89:26, 94:22, Isa. 17:10, 26:4, 44:8, Hab. 1:12.
We need to interpret whether something in Scripture is literal or not based on its context, not the number of times it occurs.
E
elijio
Guest
To NDfan:
Please explain to me why there are almost 35,000 protestant denominations who all say that their interpretation of the bible is the correct one.
That sure is a lot of Holy Spirit’s guiding people in different directions. Why would the Holy Spirit do such a thing?
Also, can you tell me where Jesus said his body and blood in the wine and bread are a symbol? I can’t find it.
Thanks. Peace.
Please explain to me why there are almost 35,000 protestant denominations who all say that their interpretation of the bible is the correct one.
That sure is a lot of Holy Spirit’s guiding people in different directions. Why would the Holy Spirit do such a thing?
Also, can you tell me where Jesus said his body and blood in the wine and bread are a symbol? I can’t find it.
Thanks. Peace.
B
Bill_Pick
Guest
How about responding to my posts directly instead of making a derogatory comment like telling me what chep shots and the name calling. yes i have been having trouble with my keyboard ,is that all you have to talk about, and please remember you started all this cr@@ have a good day, btw please look ,i will have 3 more post on john 6 to day ,i hope you like them if not i’ll have 3 more tuesday
N
NonCatholic
Guest
You’ll need to ask a Protestant that question, but I would provide proof of that number and the number of interpretations and which specific interpretation you are questioning; otherwise the question is impossible to answer, so be more specific…anyone can generalize and stereotype.
P.S. I realize you asked the question to NDfan.
E
elijio
Guest
Here you go: bringyou.to/apologetics/a120.htm
That is a 2005 census.
Besides that. I just picked up the yellow pages and counted over 200 different protestant churches just in my area alone and I live in a small area in Texas. You can do the same.
That is over 200 Holy Spirits guiding not only the pastor of those churches but imagine all the different interpretations within those churches as well! I’m guessing everyone has a personal Holy Spirit? Who decides which interpretation is correct between all of them? Who is in charge or has the authority?
Peace.
Actually, you are right; my mind cannot conceive the idea that when Christ said, “Take, eat. This is my Body”, that he didn’t mean it. Neither can the minds of Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, and most of Christendom dating back to the Apostles and the ECF’s (yeah, I know, they didn’t understand English, either).
Jon
- Status