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Lapell
Guest
Is the Qoran the only text in Islam considered as coming from God? I thought there were at least 3 or 4 books in all, not just the Qoran!
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Lapell
Guest
It seems to be quite a jump at conclusions. I hadn’t seen this post earlier. Truth is supposed to be simple, but it takes many things at consideration, it’s nothing simplistic! I can see now that FoA can’t be a Jew. I wish he would be able to see that examining each case separately would be far more faithful to the Truth than genralizing and putting everyone on the same scale no matter what. Maybe you don’t really seek the Truth like I thought earlier…
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Deusdonat
Guest
Hello Lapell. Just to let you know, FOA sometimes says he “identifies” with Islam, but his beliefs are for the most part his own (i.e. you would never hear a Muslim way what he says).Is the Qoran the only text in Islam considered as coming from God? I thought there were at least 3 or 4 books in all, not just the Qoran!
Regarding the Qur’an, Muslims believe it is the ONLY book that came straight from God/Allah (and even this is laughible since they beleive God/Allah spoke throught the Angel Gabriel, then to Mohammed…so already there is a descrepancy here). Other books in Islam are called ahadith (plural for hadith). The best analogy I can give is that they are likened to our Gospels in that they are a collection of sayings and witness accounts. But Muslims do not believe these are from God, since they acknowledge that they are written by men. So, there is always dispute from one Muslim faction and another over which (if any) are reliable.
An example would be the case of female circumcision (FGM). The Qur’an does not mention this, yet there are I believe 4 different passages in the ahadith which not only condone it but say how it should be done. So, while many Islamic scholars now condemn the practice (which they never did in the centuries prior…it’s just now we know about it) on specific religious grounds saying the ahadith passages are unreliable, others point to the passages in ahadith which condone it. And back and forth.
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Reuben_J
Guest
I guess this is in stark contrast to the fruit of Mohammad. I could be wrong though.
Mohmmad followers who cried out “Allahu Akbar” when they crashed themselves in jet planes against sky scrapers and killed evrybody, women, children and old people. Or people who blew thier own bodies into smitheren in pubs and discothiquues killing themselves and young students who do no know yet what’s right or wrong. In the name of Allah they destroyed and exterminated.
In the name of Jesus, through the teaching of Paul, Pope John Paul 2 forgave the man who shot him, wanting him dead. Yet, it was he who conquered Communism while the Allahu Akbar people who blew their bodies to pieces had not achieved anything.
Whether Paul was false or not, the fruit of his life and teachings must be a parameter to account for his authenticity.
Just my two cents.
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planten
Guest
Those who crashed the planes on Twin Towers (9/11) were war mongers. They may have had some score to settle. Please do not blame it on the religion that is Islam.
Perhaps they thought that it was the right way to bring supermacy to the religion. Whatever was done was quite wrong. That was not any good way. So it happened. Now every Muslim is suffering due to that. That is also not right. Why the poor innocent persons should pay the price for the mistake (crime) of others?
Of course, there are a lot many Muslims who believe in Jihad (fight in the way of Allah). The reason is that they do not have a learned spiritual leader. All they have are the political leaders. Those leaders are not guided. So they cannot impart the right guidance of peace and love to the Muslims. That is one reason that most Muslims are full of hatred for the Jews and the christians.
Hatred does not solve any problem. It is love that does it.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
I think a lot of people consider that Muslims overpowering Soviets in Afghanistan to be one of the reasons Communism fell.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
Jews like Neturei Karta also oppose Zionism. They say Jews need to adhere to prophecy and wait for Messiah to establish Israel.
I might actually want to be a Jew if I could commit to observing Torah.
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ralphinal
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Reuben_J
Guest
Exactly. That is what I am trying to say. And Paul taught about love that Jesus taught.
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Reuben_J
Guest
We do not agree with what you call ‘spiritual blessings’. I don’t know exactly know what you mean by this but whatever it is, this is never the Christian understanding of the Hebrews being God’s chosen people.
They were being chosen by God, their ancestors having pleased God, so that God’s plan of salvation will be accomplished through them. I agree that there were certain of amount of privileges being God’s chosen people – they directly had God as their helper, provider and protector, but the ‘spiritual blessing’ is for everyone, if that is what you mean. Spiritual thing is about the thing we cannot see; eternal life for example. Jews and everybody in the world can be recipient of God’s blessing when they believe and live according to the teaching of Jesus.
Jesus came once and that’s sufficient for God’s plan to be accomplished. God does not make mistake and he does not need to do it all over again, especially since His own Son had died for the salvation of mankind.
Yes, the followers were persecuted but the message of God was not lost. By saying that it was lost you are against the words of the Quran too.
Writings and traditions of the message were intact. The followers did not all died at the same time. They met in synagogues and formed early church communities. They encouraged each other and spread the God News everywhere. They were not afraid of persecution and death for their belief.
You certainly have it wrong there.
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Reuben_J
Guest
This is a much unlearned understanding of Christianity.
Except for the fact that Paul said very unfavourable thing about false prophets, the reason why he was rejected by the Muslims, not Mohammad, there is nothing in your argument so far that prove Paul is not the disciple or not giving the right teaching of the apostles.
Paul is not mentioned in the Gospels because the Gospels are the story about Jesus and Paul was not in the scene yet. If Paul died in 64 A.D. how could he be mentioned in the Gospel when Jesus died about 33 A.D. ? He was not in the scene during Jesus’ time and Paul made that very clear himself.
Christians do not have problem with the four Gospels. They were report about Jesus by four different reporters about things that were relevant for our belief. Each reporter (Gospel writer) reported according to the audience that they were addressing.
For the Christians, in fact the four Gospels are more than enough. If we can follow everything that they contain perfectly, you would have perfect Christians everywhere, unlike what we have now. Believers are always struggling to follow the way of God because they are just humans.
Luke, a Gospel writer, mentioned about the conversion of Paul.
Muslims not only do not know Paul, but they also do not know Mathew, Peter, James and John, Philip, Thomas, Bartholomew, Simon, etc. These were intimate disciples of Jesus whom he had elevated to the rank of apostles. They were first confidants to his thought, and his deeds were understood by them. Christianity is based on the teachings of the apostles because they were firsthand witnesses of Jesus.
The system of Jewish master-disciple relationship in Jesus time is very important factor for us to really appreciate the knowledge that the apostles had about Jesus. It is not just about verbal teachings but Jesus action as well, must be understood in the context of when and what happened.
Muslims are therefore lacking in knowledge about Jesus because they do not have good source on where to get good information about him.
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Reuben_J
Guest
Wrong analogy. If they are your Pauls, then they are truly knowledgeable Muslims.
This is what it is now. Not during Adam’s time, there was no death in paradise. That’s why in Genesis 2:17 God said they were doomed to die if they disobeyed. They had been obedient before, there was no death, but when they sinned through disobedience, they were doomed to die.
We inherited this situation now because we all are descendants of Adam. It may sound unfair, but the deal was like that. They obeyed God and God gave them the paradise of Eden. They disobeyed God, they would be chased out of paradise to the lands of humans and of flesh.
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viper78912
Guest
QUOTE=Reuben J;3262223]Wrong analogy. If they are your Pauls, then they are truly knowledgeable Muslims.
This is what it is now. Not during Adam’s time, there was no death in paradise. That’s why in Genesis 2:17 God said they were doomed to die if they disobeyed. They had been obedient before, there was no death, but when they sinned through disobedience, they were doomed to die.
We inherited this situation now because we all are descendants of Adam. It may sound unfair, but the deal was like that. They obeyed God and God gave them the paradise of Eden. They disobeyed God, they would be chased out of paradise to the lands of humans and of flesh.
All religions have three streams of followers:
The fundamentalists who believe in selective soteriology.Only they are God’s children. All others are condemned.
The moderates who believe that perhaps, others also might be children of God.
The futurists who believe that all created beings belong to the Family of Man under the Fatherhood of God. (CCC819). "Many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to ‘Catholic unity.’
When fundamentalists reign supreme, we have evil deeds like 9/11, and the Inquisition.
This is what it is now. Not during Adam’s time, there was no death in paradise. That’s why in Genesis 2:17 God said they were doomed to die if they disobeyed. They had been obedient before, there was no death, but when they sinned through disobedience, they were doomed to die.
We inherited this situation now because we all are descendants of Adam. It may sound unfair, but the deal was like that. They obeyed God and God gave them the paradise of Eden. They disobeyed God, they would be chased out of paradise to the lands of humans and of flesh.
All religions have three streams of followers:
The fundamentalists who believe in selective soteriology.Only they are God’s children. All others are condemned.
The moderates who believe that perhaps, others also might be children of God.
The futurists who believe that all created beings belong to the Family of Man under the Fatherhood of God. (CCC819). "Many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to ‘Catholic unity.’
When fundamentalists reign supreme, we have evil deeds like 9/11, and the Inquisition.
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Lapell
Guest
Thank you, Deusdonat, for your informations and thoughts. And to you, FaithOf Abraham, for having answered my question. I know one is allowed to be ironic or joky at times, but for a moment I thought you were speaking like an Islam-ist (approving the physical Jihad against the so-called Infidels even more than the one spiritual, our war against our tendancy to give way to sin which should be a concern to us all!)
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
No not even, Jesus said to put away our swords. I think it is ok to maybe defend your family against an intruder and things like that but not to force people to listen to preaching.
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R_not
Guest
I will criticize it all I want. The Pope was not acting in an infallible position when he did that putrid act. The koran is a book of battle tactics against all non-muslims. Read it for yourself.
Another poster said to post from the koran to prove my point. Ok, here goes:
‘Shirk’ is worse for a muslim than killing a kufir.
hotair.com/archives/2007/09/30/blogging-the-qur%e2%80%99an-sura-6-%e2%80%9ccattle%e2%80%9d-verses-1-83/
Koran’s foundations for taqiyya, or deception by muslims in the land of war (dar al harb):
jihadwatch.org/archives/017491.php
- “I was ordered to fight all men until they say ‘There is no god but Allah.’” prophet Mohammad’s farewell address, March 632
- “I was ordered to fight the people until they say there is no god but Allah, and his prophet Mohammed.”
Osama bin Laden, Nov 2001
sheikyermami.com/2007/11/15/ten-thousand-reported-islamic-jihad-terror-attacks-since-911/#comment-21576
Muslim’s stated goal to take us over by 2050
jihadwatch.org/archives/018733.php
‘No muslim should be killed for killing (a disbeliever).’ Hadith Sahih al-Bukhari, vol1, book3, no. 111
Negotiation – islam style.
hotair.com/archives/2007/11/18/blogging-the-qur%e2%80%99an-sura-9-%e2%80%9crepentance%e2%80%9d-verses-6-14/
Persistence of muslim slavery:
jihadwatch.org/archives/017455.php
Sudan, Darfur, and the Jihad:
jihadwatch.org/archives/018596.php
A video of an imam preaching hatred in his mosque (the primary duty of imams IS to preach jihad)
switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ClipMediaID=60227&ak=null
UN against freespeech if it pertains to islam/muslims, ok if it pertains to any non-muslim bashing:
jihadwatch.org/archives/019428.php
Female circumcision:
nytimes.com/2008/01/20/magazine/20circumcision-t.html?_r=2&scp=2&sq=circumcision&st=nyt&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/019729.php
Moral equivalency comparison between islam and Christianity
doctorbulldog.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/moral-equivalency-between-islam-and-christianity/
Churchill on islam:
carolinajournal.com/exclusives/display_exclusive.html?id=3158
The one thing I can count on in this life besides death and taxes is that islam is the ‘gift that keeps on giving’ when asked to provide proof that it is violent. All one really has to do is look for themselves, but most are too lazy to do so, and/or some would rather keep their heads in the sand. But keeping the head in the sand only makes you a nice, big target.
A very good book to read is, ‘A Never Ending War’, by Michael Cappi.
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Lapell
Guest
Thank you for your insight, planten. I do agree with you that we should not speak of Islam as though there are not good things in it.
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Lapell
Guest
I think the Catholic Church agrees with you there, and so do I.
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R_not
Guest
Oh he is a muslim. I can spot one a mile away. You have to read their words very carefully. Yes, they do indeed practice taqiyya.
Yes, some Jews will defend islam, but it is a defense more the appeasers do and just want peace for all. This is what we all wish, but if you know the koran it won’t happen.
Here is some websites for either blogging the koran, or buying some books on the koran which puts it in an order more easy to understand (it is very kludgy otherwise). But, you can just buy the koran and read it like I did before I found the sources that I am going to post. I say, know your enemy. I do believe that is Sun Tsu’s suggestion in the ‘Art of War’ too.
Blogging the Koran
<a href=”http://www.jihadwatch.org/articles/bloggingtheq.php”target=new>Blogging the koran
Or
<a href=”http://www.cspipublishing.com/”target=new>Understanding islam
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R_not
Guest
I made a mistake with my websites, I had the coding around it for another blog site, sorry, here they are without:
Blogging the Koran
jihadwatch.org/articles/bloggingtheq.php
cspipublishing.com/
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