Saint Paul and Islam

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ralphinal said:
FoA,

I am not disputing the facts that you have stated. I know of many injustices done in that time. My question is was it done BY the Church, by members of the Church without Church order, by agents of the Church working for the government, by the governement , or by a bunch of mean people?

Our claim is that the Church did not endorse or order anyone to do anything of the sort. Agents of the Church working for the government or the government itself might have, but I have never seen an order from Rome, so to speak, to do any of that. Some claim that Muhammid did order such horrors. This is not the topic, but it is the point that some are making.
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Of course the missions always belonged to the Church except for a thirty-year period when Mexicans controlled California, then they were returned to the Church when USA gained control.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
Of course the missions always belonged to the Church except for a thirty-year period when Mexicans controlled California, then they were returned to the Church when USA gained control.
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Correct, but my point is did the Pope say “Go kill or convert Indians.” Or did these people do these things because of outside (non-Church) influences?
 
FaithofAbraham said:
There are these guys.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
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Don’t just stop there, FoA! What happens to them right after these two witnesses’ testimony?
Rev. 11, 7-12: << (…) the beast which comes from the bottomless pit will fight them, conquer them and kill them. Their dead bodies will lie on the street of the city where their Lord was crucified (…)Those living on earth will gloat over the witnesses’ death. They will celebrate (…) After 3 1/2 days the breath, the breath of life entered the two witnesses, and they stood on their feet.Great fear fell on those who watched them. The witnesses heard a loud voice from heaven calling to them, “Come up here.” They went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.>>
Where their Lord was crucified… that’s Jesus! So “their Lord” applied to Jesus means that these witnesses are… Christians!
You knew that?
 
FaithofAbraham said:
Except Mohammed has yet to knock Hitler out as #1 Satan of the world – a Catholic. And you don’t really want to get into discussing rape, do you? The Church has its fingers in so many pies around the world no one knows what it has stopped doing.

So let’s have a reality check here.
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FoA, if Mohammed ordered his followers to do those things and it’s in the Koran,then it’s even worse, because he implies he gets it from God, and even worse if the message was supposed to be determined for a specific time when in the text of the Qoran it wasn’t, well… That would look at best as a very dangerous negligence of grave consequences, wouldn’t it? Even if Mohammed was no Hitler!
 
ralphinal said:
Correct, but my point is did the Pope say “Go kill or convert Indians.” Or did these people do these things because of outside (non-Church) influences?
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I don’t know, I guess the Pope knew about all the missions in California.
 
ralphinal said:
Correct, but my point is did the Pope say “Go kill or convert Indians.” Or did these people do these things because of outside (non-Church) influences?
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Excellent point, ralphinal. I had the same question myself. Hard for most people to even want to discern between Spanish and Spanish, or between a priest or even a bishop who won’t follow the Gospel on certain involving their emotions too much, and priests and bishops who remain faithful to Jesus Christ and His Church. There was Judas Iscariot among the Apostles, there have been like him in the course of history, but that doesn’t make the whole Church herself the culprit. Would you blame Jesus for Judas’ sin?
 
Lapell said:
FoA, if Mohammed ordered his followers to do those things and it’s in the Koran,then it’s even worse, because he implies he gets it from God, and even worse if the message was supposed to be determined for a specific time when in the text of the Qoran it wasn’t, well… That would look at best as a very dangerous negligence of grave consequences, wouldn’t it? Even if Mohammed was no Hitler!
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There is no order from rape and such in the Quran though, only normal warfare of that time period, and much more lenient than that under Moses and Joshua. Israelites killed everyone, men, women, children. Mohammed ordered only fighting men be killed, and if they surrendered then don’t kill them.

Again you can’t say the promise of Isaac justified what Israel did but promise for Ishmael didn’t. If God allowed it then He allowed it, to destroy paganism and unbelief in Arabia and cement belief in Him in the land.
 
ralphinal said:
FoA,

I am not disputing the facts that you have stated. I know of many injustices done in that time. My question is was it done BY the Church, by members of the Church without Church order, by agents of the Church working for the government, by the governement , or by a bunch of mean people?
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Is it so difficult for the truth-seeking unbelievers and believers to ask themselves questions as detailed as ralphinal’s? Just to be careful not to put one tag on the wrong article, so to speak…
 
FaithofAbraham said:
There has been a lot of famous Judas in the Church, from persecuting Jews and Native Americans to Hitler to pedophile.
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Hitler hadn’t been to Church for a very long time, and he didn’t hesitate to treat priests as enemies to eliminate…
 
FaithofAbraham said:
There is no order from rape and such in the Quran though, only normal warfare of that time period, and much more lenient than that under Moses and Joshua. Israelites killed everyone, men, women, children. Mohammed ordered only fighting men be killed, and if they surrendered then don’t kill them.
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Thank you for this information, FoA. But we are not in Moses’ or Joshua’s time, are we?
 
Lapell said:
Hitler hadn’t been to Church for a very long time, and he didn’t hesitate to treat priests as enemies to eliminate…
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There are pictures right here of Hitler leaving church and cavorting with clergy.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
There is no order from rape and such in the Quran though, only normal warfare of that time period …] Mohammed ordered only fighting men be killed, and if they surrendered then don’t kill them.
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THIS part of the answer I like: straightens things up. The rest of the post was unnecessary and appears to serve as a sort of revenge or as more fire to ignate more hostility from us. I wish that we all refrain from this tendancy. I’d ask the same from everybody including myself. Yes?
 
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