Saints in Heaven praying for us?

[Pax]

SPOKENWORD:

Would you even question recieving a gift from the Lord? Ask and you shall recieve. God Bless

I do not question any gifts from the Lord. I do, however, make every attempt to make sure that I discern what is and what is not from the Lord. I pray for this discernment because I do not trust myself. This helps me stay out of trouble. I certainly believe and practice the scriptural prescription, “Ask and you shall receive.” I am careful, however, to be more general in my prayers when it comes to asking for such things as the gift of prophesy or tongues. I know myself well enough to ask God to first keep me humble. I always want to focus on the Giver and I have asked the Lord to help me focus on Him as the Giver rather than on the gifts.

My greatest weakness is pride and I have to consciously fight this tendency within me. The Lord has done many things to help me fight this temptation, but I am still a difficult work in progress. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit know best. If God believes that I can remain focused on Him and be humble then perhaps the Lord will grant me that of which you speak.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Pax:

I do not question any gifts from the Lord. I do, however, make every attempt to make sure that I discern what is and what is not from the Lord. I pray for this discernment because I do not trust myself. This helps me stay out of trouble. I certainly believe and practice the scriptural prescription, “Ask and you shall receive.” I am careful, however, to be more general in my prayers when it comes to asking for such things as the gift of prophesy or tongues. I know myself well enough to ask God to first keep me humble. I always want to focus on the Giver and I have asked the Lord to help me focus on Him as the Giver rather than on the gifts.

My greatest weakness is pride and I have to consciously fight this tendency within me. The Lord has done many things to help me fight this temptation, but I am still a difficult work in progress. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit know best. If God believes that I can remain focused on Him and be humble then perhaps the Lord will grant me that of which you speak.

I say Amen brother,Every one of our sins are rooted in pride. I like you suffer from the same spirit. .Lord teach us how to humble ourselves. We are a work in progress. Lord help us that you may burn out the dross in our lives that you may be able to used as faithful and humble servants.Amen. God Bless P/s Do you then have the greater gift of Prophesy?

 

[VociMike]

Since we are called on to pray for each other on earth, why would those in heaven stop? If it is a good thing to do when we are on earth, why is it not a good thing to do in heaven?

 

[SPOKENWORD]

VociMike:

Since we are called on to pray for each other on earth, why would those in heaven stop? If it is a good thing to do when we are on earth, why is it not a good thing to do in heaven?

Hi Voci, Things are not all the same here on earth as they are in heaven. I asked about marriages. Why are there no longer marriages in heaven? I love my wife. God Bless

 

[VociMike]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Voci, Things are not all the same here on earth as they are in heaven. I asked about marriages. Why are there no longer marriages in heaven? I love my wife. God Bless

I don’t know about marriages. I would suggest that marriages do not exist in heaven because we will all be united in a way even deeper than in marriage.

No, things are not all the same, but why do you think that saints would stop praying for people on earth just when their prayers are the most efficacious? Why would those in heaven stop partaking in the great saving work of God just when they were closest to Him. If those in heaven love God even more than we do on earth, would they not seek nothing more than to share in the saving of those whom God loves? Does the command to love one’s neighbor cease in heaven?

You spoke of loving your wife. If someone in your wife’s family needed a life-saving operation, and you came into a great deal of money, would you not pay to help save one who is loved by the one you love? How can the saints in heaven stand by and watch those on earth whom God loves unto death on a cross, and not pour themselves out in prayer for them? It is inconceivable!

 

[Reformed_Rob]

GregoryPalamas:

It is also called “PRAYER”. Perhaps you are not Catholic and don’t know these things.

Hey, I have to stick up for Spokenword here for just a moment. Now, I haven’t read all the posts, the thread has taken off in the past few days, but it seems like there’s some discussion on prayer and worship.

Maybe I’m wrong, but I am confident I’m right, and that you can follow what I’m saying. I’m not picking on Gregory here, I just happened to quote his statement.

Part of the reason non-Catholics have a hard time understanding the whole “prayer to the saints” issue is that they tend to see all prayer as worship. The thought is, I only worship God, so I only pray to God.

Non-Catholic… All Prayer is Worship

So when you say “I prayed to St. Ambrose” or “the Blessed Virgin Mary” it’s seen as being like worshipping that person. But Catholics don’t equate prayer with worship. They may understand all worship to be prayer, but not all prayer to be worship.

Catholic… Not all Prayer is Worship.

Like I said, I haven’t read all the posts, but that seemed to be a side topic. My :twocents: anyways

 

[Kay_Cee]

SPOKENWORD:

In Luke 15;7 I believe that God assigns Holy Angels as witnesses here on earth. When some one recieves salvation these Holy Angels bring the Good News into Heaven. There our cheerleading squads ( SAINTS) shouts with Joy.

As for Luke 15;7,I was only adding what in my spirit I felt happens.

I admit I’ve only been skimming this thread, but these words jumped out at me.

Is this really how we should discern the truth? It sounds as emotional and unobjective as a Mormon “burning in the bosom.”

“Adding what in my spirit I felt happens” sounds like “I interpret the Bible the way I see fit,” or, in other words being your own authority. After all, you yourself admit you added an interpretation.

And I think that’s the major problem here: who or what has the authority to interpret scripture? You or the Church Jesus founded and promised would not be overcome by the gates of Hell?

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Kay Cee:

I admit I’ve only been skimming this thread, but these words jumped out at me.

Is this really how we should discern the truth? It sounds as emotional and unobjective as a Mormon “burning in the bosom.”

“Adding what in my spirit I felt happens” sounds like “I interpret the Bible the way I see fit,” or, in other words being your own authority. After all, you yourself admit you added an interpretation.

And I think that’s the major problem here: who or what has the authority to interpret scripture? You or the Church Jesus founded and promised would not be overcome by the gates of Hell?

Personally I have no business interpreting scripture. My job is to understand it. God Bless

 

[MariaG]

SPOKENWORD:

. Of couse we are to pray for one another. The Word does say we are to pray for one another. There is only one mediator by which are prayers are heard and that is through Jesus Christ. There is no other way.Yes God has called us to be His hands extended.That is His plan for He has no other. I believe we are pretty much saying the same thing. God Bless

We are saying the same thing once you can include those who are in heaven as part of those who are called to pray for one another.

For a Catholic Christian, there is no difference in asking you to pray for me or Our Blessed Mother to pray for me since both are part of the body of Christ. The hands that are in heaven are not idle.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

ps

Interesting thought just occurred to me.

The Scripture reading today was of the talents. (Not burying your talents but using them for the Glory of God). For Catholics, the very idea that Christians in heaven stop praying is like saying those in heaven have chosen to bury their talents. Christians just don’t do that.

We would use those talents to glorify God even more. That is the Catholic way of thinking. And Scripture supports. And of course, Sacred Tradition

Seriously, while things in heaven will be different, no husbands and wives, the way we honor God will not change, only get better. So if it is pleasing to God to pray for one another, why would those who are in heaven want to stop pleasing God? Will God change and no longer find praying for others pleasing?

Do you know people here on earth who seem to have a talent, God given, for healing certain body areas? I know one pastor who in his own words, “God heals peoples backs through me.” He would try to pray for other things, but his “talent” was backs. God choose to heal backs through him. Does that man in heaven bury his talent and stop asking God to heal backs?

Maybe this will help you to understand the Catholic “communion of saints” a little better.

 

[Kay_Cee]

SPOKENWORD:

Personally I have no business interpreting scripture. My job is to understand it. God Bless

Then, I have to ask, why did you give us your interpretation?

God bless you too!

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Kay Cee:

Then, I have to ask, why did you give us your interpretation?

God bless you too!

It was not my interpretation of Luke but only my oppinion. God Bless

 

[Kay_Cee]

SPOKENWORD:

In Luke 15;7 I believe that God assigns Holy Angels as witnesses here on earth. When some one recieves salvation these Holy Angels bring the Good News into Heaven. There our cheerleading squads ( SAINTS) shouts with Joy.

This sure sounds like an interpretation to me, (you did say it’s what “I believe”) especially when you later say, “I was only adding what in my spirit I felt happens.”

It sounds like you’re basing interpretations of scripture on your own personal feelings.

Can you at least see why it sounds like that’s what you’re saying?

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Kay Cee:

This sure sounds like an interpretation to me, (you did say it’s what “I believe”) especially when you later say, “I was only adding what in my spirit I felt happens.”

It sounds like you’re basing interpretations of scripture on your own personal feelings.

Can you at least see why it sounds like that’s what you’re saying?

I understand what you are saying.Like I said my job is to understand it. I don,t want the Holy Spirits job. I,m the student not the teacher. God Bless

 

[SPOKENWORD]

OKAY, Back to the topic subject at hand. Does anyone here believe that the Saints in heaven are omnipresent as God is ?Can anyone give me an example of Jesus Christ praying to anyone other than His Father? Also Why would the Saints in heaven be praying for us when they have access into the throne room? God Bless

 

[arieh0310]

SPOKENWORD:

OKAY, Back to the topic subject at hand. Does anyone here believe that the Saints in heaven are omnipresent as God is ?Can anyone give me an example of Jesus Christ praying to anyone other than His Father? Also Why would the Saints in heaven be praying for us when they have access into the throne room? God Bless

On the Mount of Transfiguration (Luke 9:28-31) Jesus is conversing with a couple of dead guys (Moses and Elijah).

The Saints are not omnipresent, only through God’s power are the Saints able to hear and respond to our prayers (only by God’s grace can we even say that Christ is Lord, Matthew 16:17).

We should absolutely pray directly to Jesus, and often. But in order to be consistent with your own argument we should never ask (pray) for our earthly brothers and sisters in Christ to interceed on our behalf. I have been a Protestant, Pentacostal Christian for 10 years and have asked every believer I could get my hands on to pray for me. When you read passages such as Mark 12:27 where Christ says that God is not the God of the dead but of the living, that we are more alive with Chirst in heaven than on earth, it makes total sense to ask those in perfect communion with God to interceed on our behalf.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

arieh0310:

On the Mount of Transfiguration (Luke 9:28-31) Jesus is conversing with a couple of dead guys (Moses and Elijah).

The Saints are not omnipresent, only through God’s power are the Saints able to hear and respond to our prayers (only by God’s grace can we even say that Christ is Lord, Matthew 16:17).

We should absolutely pray directly to Jesus, and often. But in order to be consistent with your own argument we should never ask (pray) for our earthly brothers and sisters in Christ to interceed on our behalf. I have been a Protestant, Pentacostal Christian for 10 years and have asked every believer I could get my hands on to pray for me. When you read passages such as Mark 12:27 where Christ says that God is not the God of the dead but of the living, that we are more alive with Chirst in heaven than on earth, it makes total sense to ask those in perfect communion with God to interceed on our behalf.

Is Jesus praying to Moses And Elijah? So you are saying through Gods power they can hear our prayers throughout the world.Any time intercession is mentioned in scriptures it always refers to the saints here on earth. God Bless

 

[arieh0310]

SPOKENWORD:

Is Jesus praying to Moses And Elijah?

Well, no He isn’t. But then again, He is God and can’t imagine Him needing intercession from anyone other than His Father. If you read Luke 9 carefully you will notice that Christ isn’t just shooting the breeze with these dead guys, He is discussing His passion, our plan of salvation.

One thing to keep in mind is that praying does not have to involve worship. When I pray to God it involves an aspect of worship, but when I have prayed to Saints I am simply asking for them to interceed on my behalf.

SPOKENWORD:

So you are saying through Gods power they can hear our prayers throughout the world.

Yup, you got it. Just like when I pray for my brothers and sisters here on earth the prayer is efficacious not because of my power but because of God’s. The Holy Spirit has lead me at times to pray for someone, then when I talk to that person later I find out that in fact they were going through tough times and were in need of prayer (any Spirit-filled pentacostal should know exactly what I am talking about).

SPOKENWORD:

Any time intercession is mentioned in scriptures it always refers to the saints here on earth. God Bless

Well, we showed you that in Rev 5:8 and 8:5, but you interpret those differently. I happen to think when Hebews 12 talks about us being surrouned by a “cloud of witnesses” that that is a striking example of Saints watching over and interceeding for us. You also have Christ in Matthew 18:10 stating very clearly that little children have guardian angels “who always see the face of my Father who is in heaven”. There are also the deuterocannonical books (like Maccabees and Tobit) that very clearly talk about prayers to the dead, and don’t forget the ancient Jewish practice of the Mourner Kaddish.

And, if you would like, we could start quoting the Early Church Fathers (from the first and second century on) where they clearly teach that we should pray for everyone (on both sides of death).

Praying to the Saints is an ancient Christian practice that is (even today) done by over 75% of the world’s Christians. Do you think that Christ’s Church fell into error in the second century and no one noticed? (there aren’t any examples of early Christians objecting to praying to the saints in heaven).

 

[MariaG]

SPOKENWORD:

OKAY, Back to the topic subject at hand. Does anyone here believe that the Saints in heaven are omnipresent as God is ?
I don’t nor is it Catholic teaching that the saints in heaven are omnipresent as God is.

Can anyone give me an example of Jesus Christ praying to anyone other than His Father?
**Nope. But we do not pray to Our Father in the same manner as we ask saints to pray for us. Not in the way you mean. So this question is not valid. **

Also Why would the Saints in heaven be praying for us when they have access into the throne room? God Bless
What does having access to the throne room have to do with stopping things that are pleasing to God? It is pleasing to God for us to pray for one another. Prayer by your own definition is a petition made to God. The only difference is the petition is done in the actual presence of God.

 

[Pax]

SPOKENWORD,

Much has been presented to you that shows why Catholics reasonably believe that the saints in heaven would indeed pray for us. Perhaps it is time for you to try to show why it is more reasonable to suggest that saints wouln’t be praying for us.

No one argues that praying to a saint is more efficacious then praying to Jesus. Praying to Jesus vs. praying to a saint is not the direction that the argument should logically take, since we all agree on Jesus. The argument boils down to the efficacy of prayers by a just man/woman vs. the prayer of a less just or even a sinful man/woman. The saints in heaven are “the souls of just men made perfect.” The prayers of a just man “availeth much.”

Just as we ask one another to pray on our behalf we also ask the “souls of just men made perfect” to pray on our behalf. This is certainly a reasonable and pious thing to do, and it in no way detracts from Jesus. If anything it is praising the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit because praying to the saints for intercession automatically gives recognition to the work of Christ within them. They have been fully sanctified and made holy and perfect by the work of the Father through Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

For your part, if your position is to be credible, you must show that the saints in heaven are no longer interested in their fellow members of the body of Christ on earth. You must also show that they are totally unaware of what is going on here on earth. You must show why God would not enable them to be aware of things involving the body of Christ on earth. And finally you must also show why their prayers would be of less value than the prayers offered by our brothers and sisters here on earth.

I believe that you will have difficulty demonstrating these things from scripture, whereas we have addressed each of these from scripture. Nevertheless, I welcome whatever you can say in response to these points.

 

[Pax]

SPOKENWORD,

The interactions of Jesus with the Father are quite clear in the gospels and Jesus frequently prays to the Father. Likewise, we find that Jesus interacted with the angels. In Matthew 4:11 we are told that “Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and ministered to him.” Now it is quite clear that at least in some absolute sense, Jesus had no need of being ministered to by angels. Morever, at the Transfiguration there was no absolute need for Jesus, at least in his divine nature, to speak with Moses and Elijah about his passion and death. In some absolute sense there was also no necessity for Jesus, as least for his own sake, to be baptized by John and then to have the Holy Spirit descend upon him in the form of a dove. Nevertheless, Jesus, the second person of the Trinity did experience these things and they do tell us something about the relationships between these heavenly persons and the “man” Jesus.

Jesus is our example. Jesus is both God and man. Clearly, these interactions did not take place for the benefit of Jesus’s divine nature. In his divine nature, Jesus had no need for these interactions. These interactions took place for the benefit of his human nature and for the benefit of the eye witnesses and those that would come after them. If these interactions are good enough for Jesus then these interactions are good enough for me. If these interactions benefited the human nature of Christ then these kinds of interactions will benefit our human nature as well. This is all part of God’s plan and it all works to bring us into closer union with him.