S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
Hi Gregory,I didn,t say praying ,I said praising.They are forms of praise and worship.Did you know there are Holy Angels who worship God in the Throne Room continuasly non stop.Now thats WORSHIP!!!
God Bless
- Status
God Bless
M
Mickey
Guest
I’ll rephrase it for Gregory. What do you think worshipping, singing, and praising are?Hi Gregory,I didn,t say praying ,I said praising.They are forms of praise and worship.Did you know there are Holy Angels who worship God in the Throne Room continuasly non stop.Now thats WORSHIP!!!
S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
They are ways that we HONOR the Lord.
God Bless
M
Mickey
Guest
I’m not letting you off the hook that easy spokes.They are ways that we HONOR the Lord.
Are you saying that worship, song, and praise are **not **a form of prayer?
I can see you wiggling uncomfortably out there in cyberspace.
S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
There is a lot spoken here that I agree with But there are some points that I dont. In Luke 15;7 I believe that God assigns Holy Angels as witnesses here on earth. When some one recieves salvation these Holy Angels bring the Good News into Heaven. There our cheerleading squads ( SAINTS) shouts with Joy.In Romans I agree ,Nothing will seperate us from the love of Christ . Christ will always love us because its unconditional and He is love. In Eph.6;8 It,s talking about earthly saints.Also pray in the spirit? Do you Pax, pray in the Spirit? (tongues). What a wonderful gift from the Lord.
God Bless
G
GregoryPalamas
Guest
It is also called “PRAYER”. Perhaps you are not Catholic and don’t know these things.Hi Gregory,I didn,t say praying ,I said praising.They are forms of praise and worship.Did you know there are Holy Angels who worship God in the Throne Room continuasly non stop.Now thats WORSHIP!!!
Dan Lauffer
Ah, I just checked your profile. Non-Denominational which is equivalent to “Make up my own religion on the run”. I see the problem. Well, it won’t work. We’re trying to show you what the Church that Jesus founded actually teaches. You are answering with whatever comes to mind at any given moment. I doubt that there will be a meeting of the minds until you decide that humility is the proper attitude toward our Lord and that Presumption only gets you into trouble.
D
Didi
Guest
We are all part of the Body of Christ, correct?
When we pass from this world onto the next, we are still part of the Body of Christ, we are not dismembered. As St. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 12:26 “If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.” This doesn’t change upon death.
Those who made it through the difficilties of this world understand what we have to go through – they have all been through it themselves. Who better to ask to pray for us.
That’s what I love about the communion of saints. We are all still connected. I can ask all the great saints for their prayers. I can ask my dear grandmother for her prayers.
Yes, it is awesome that there are choirs of angels who do nothing but praise God constantly! In fact, during the Holy Mass, we join together with all the angels and saints singing “Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty!” (Rev. 4:8) They pray with us during every Mass!
St. Therese of Liseux said she would spend eternity in heaven doing good on earth. How else could she do that but through prayer and intercession for us?
When we pass from this world onto the next, we are still part of the Body of Christ, we are not dismembered. As St. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 12:26 “If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.” This doesn’t change upon death.
Those who made it through the difficilties of this world understand what we have to go through – they have all been through it themselves. Who better to ask to pray for us.
That’s what I love about the communion of saints. We are all still connected. I can ask all the great saints for their prayers. I can ask my dear grandmother for her prayers.
Yes, it is awesome that there are choirs of angels who do nothing but praise God constantly! In fact, during the Holy Mass, we join together with all the angels and saints singing “Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty!” (Rev. 4:8) They pray with us during every Mass!
St. Therese of Liseux said she would spend eternity in heaven doing good on earth. How else could she do that but through prayer and intercession for us?
S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
Praise is expressing our thanks and appreciation …When we praise God we are helping ourselves by expanding our awareness of who He is. Song lifts our spirit,and can be in the form of worship or praise… Worship is adoring and honoring Amighty God… Now prayer is a petition made to God.I’m not letting you off the hook that easy spokes.
Are you saying that worship, song, and praise are **not **a form of prayer?
I can see you wiggling uncomfortably out there in cyberspace.
God Bless P/S I,m not wiggling.
G
GregoryPalamas
Guest
And you are pretending not to know that prayer summarizes all of those definitions. Petition is only one form of prayer. Saints pray for us. That is clear.
Dan L
Dan L
S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
Who me!!!
I see them as servants of the Lord doing whatever He tells them.I just don,t see it being done in the kingdom according to the book of revelation. It doesn,t mean that they do not but I,ll have to see for myself. God Bless
G
GregoryPalamas
Guest
Spokenword,Who me!!!
Does this mean that you are going to wait until after you die to take note that what the Church teaches as contained in Holy Scripture is true? But, why? If you don’t trust the Lord and make Him known now you won’t know Him then. “If you are ashamed of the Father now the Father will be ashamed of you then.” I hope, at least that you take this part of Scriptural Church teaching to heart.
This all reminds me of Pascal’s wager. It seems applicable here. Here’s the wager and I will put it to you: “I’d rather believe there is a God (and live by His word) and take my chances that I may be wrong than believe there is none and be right. For what have I lost if I’m wrong? Nothing. But if you are wrong, well too bad for you.” I’d plead with you to “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not upon your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your path.”
Dan L
BTW I note that you do not ever directly answer any question put to you.
P
Pax
Guest
Luke 15:7 does not describe the Holy Angels as witnesses here on earth that then carry news to the heavenly saints. While this is a possibility, it seems unlikely since the saints are like angels and most likely enjoy the many privileges of Angels. Angels are described elsewhere in scripture operating as guardians. We are told “that in heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven”[Matt 18:10]. It would seem that when an angel operates on earth they simultaneously behold the face of the Father who is in heaven. In similar fashion the saints would appreciate what is going on here on earth. They are granted a heavenly view of our situation while beholding the face of the Father. It has been said that the saints know what is transpiring on earth by what they see in the eyes of the Father. They are able to know and see what God wants them to be aware of.There is a lot spoken here that I agree with But there are some points that I dont. In Luke 15;7 I believe that God assigns Holy Angels as witnesses here on earth. When some one recieves salvation these Holy Angels bring the Good News into Heaven. There our cheerleading squads ( SAINTS) shouts with Joy.In Romans I agree ,Nothing will seperate us from the love of Christ . Christ will always love us because its unconditional and He is love. In Eph.6;8 It,s talking about earthly saints.Also pray in the spirit? Do you Pax, pray in the Spirit? (tongues). What a wonderful gift from the Lord.
Paul is, indeed, speaking of the earthly saints in Eph 6:8 because that is his audience and they are the ones still in need. Nevertheless, this verse is important because of what it says about prayers and supplications that we are to make for one another. This is something that the heavenly saints would also do as part of the body of Christ because the need still exists within the earthly saints. Moreover, this activity described by Paul is never said to cease upon death.
We can see a wonderful parallel in Jesus standing before the altar in the Book of Revelation. The eternal sacrifice and mediation of the Lamb is always before the throne of the Father in heaven giving redemption to every generation. At the end of time Jesus will also judge the living and the dead. Nothing in heaven or on earth is unknown to Him. So also the saints gather around the altar and the Lamb, while the martyrs beneath the altar cry out in Rev 6:9-10, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Clearly, the saints are aware of events on earth for the martyrs know that God has not yet avenged their blood. And we see, as previously pointed out, that the heavenly saints carry our prayers to the altar.
If we are all part of the body of Christ whether on earth or in heaven, we then share in the one body. What motivates love for one another on earth also motivates the love for one another in heaven. Those in heaven share in knowledge what is going on in the body of Christ on earth. Those in heaven rejoice when a sinner repents. Those in heaven would most likely pray for the repentence of sinners. Those in heaven would, like those on earth offer supplications and prayers for members of the body of Christ on earth. There is no reason to believe that Christians would have less concern for those on earth simply because they are now in heaven. The love of Christ is in each of us and Christ loves even the least of His brethren on earth. It is the love of Christ that binds us together, and it is the love of Christ and our fellow man that moves the saints to pray for us.
On the last note of your post concerning prayer in the Spirit, I will say this. While I have never spoken or prayed in tongues, I have been blessed with other gifts while in prayer. Promptings of the Holy Spirit, the gift of tears, and discernment have been given to me in ways that I never imagined would come my way. The Lord is good…may “Our Lord Come.”
S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
Thank you Pax,for your (name removed by moderator)ut.I really appreciate your work.As for Luke 15;7,I was only adding what in my spirit I felt happens.I know that there are many different types of Angels who serve God, and they all have various positions according to Gods Word.In Hebrews 1;14 it says’’ Are not all Angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation.WELL, these same spirits return the Good News to the heavenly kingdom.Thats how the Saints hear the Good news(salvation). There are alot of mysteries we know nothing about and they will be revealed when we enter in. God Bless
P
Pax
Guest
SPOKENWORD,
Whenever I have wondered and questioned a teaching or an understanding of scripture, I have tried to pray for discernment. One of the things that I include in my prayer for discernment is to ask the Lord to keep me focused on that which is the most sublime. In doing this I can study the problem knowing that the Godly way is the most sublime way. The deepest truth and understanding is the most holy and sublime.
In keeping with what we do know in explicit terms from scripture, we are given a picture of God’s plan of creation and redemption. There are many details that are not explicitly stated, but they are implicit and easily deduced. An example of this is the doctrine of “The Trinity.” The doctrine of the Trinity is easily deduced from scripture. This having been said, it is also true that it is not easily understood. Theologians have made great efforts to gain insights into the Trinity. In some cases this has born good fruit, but the mystery still remains. Everything that I have read by orthodox theologians on the Trinity and other complex issues/mysteries have a common denominator. The best insights all explore the issues by looking for the most sublime explanation and look toward the highest good that is already somehow reflected in our more basic and explicit understandings of God’s nature and plan.
When this principle is applied with prayerful discernment certain things begin to fall into place. Questions and possibilities arise from trying to imagine what God in His sublime holiness would want for us and from us.
In the case of the saints in heaven praying for us, I would suggest praying and discerning the truth of this matter by focusing on the most worthy, holy, and sublime of possibilities. The holiest and most sublime reflection is the one that will most closely resemble the absolute truth found in heaven. Would prayer for us by the heavenly saints produce more fruit then no prayer by them at all? Is their concern and love for us a greater reflection of God’s love than a view that perhaps protrays them as indifferent? If they do love us as members of the body of Christ, would it be more sublime and fulfilling of the love of Christ for them to pray for us, as opposed to not praying for us? Since they are the “souls of just men made perfect” would not their prayers “availeth much?” Wouldn’t they at least avail more than those of the saints on earth? These questions could be multiplied many times over to explore the two views to see which appears to be the most holy, loving, merciful, and God like. Afterall, it is God’s kingdom and his kingdom is most holy and sublime.
Whenever I have wondered and questioned a teaching or an understanding of scripture, I have tried to pray for discernment. One of the things that I include in my prayer for discernment is to ask the Lord to keep me focused on that which is the most sublime. In doing this I can study the problem knowing that the Godly way is the most sublime way. The deepest truth and understanding is the most holy and sublime.
In keeping with what we do know in explicit terms from scripture, we are given a picture of God’s plan of creation and redemption. There are many details that are not explicitly stated, but they are implicit and easily deduced. An example of this is the doctrine of “The Trinity.” The doctrine of the Trinity is easily deduced from scripture. This having been said, it is also true that it is not easily understood. Theologians have made great efforts to gain insights into the Trinity. In some cases this has born good fruit, but the mystery still remains. Everything that I have read by orthodox theologians on the Trinity and other complex issues/mysteries have a common denominator. The best insights all explore the issues by looking for the most sublime explanation and look toward the highest good that is already somehow reflected in our more basic and explicit understandings of God’s nature and plan.
When this principle is applied with prayerful discernment certain things begin to fall into place. Questions and possibilities arise from trying to imagine what God in His sublime holiness would want for us and from us.
In the case of the saints in heaven praying for us, I would suggest praying and discerning the truth of this matter by focusing on the most worthy, holy, and sublime of possibilities. The holiest and most sublime reflection is the one that will most closely resemble the absolute truth found in heaven. Would prayer for us by the heavenly saints produce more fruit then no prayer by them at all? Is their concern and love for us a greater reflection of God’s love than a view that perhaps protrays them as indifferent? If they do love us as members of the body of Christ, would it be more sublime and fulfilling of the love of Christ for them to pray for us, as opposed to not praying for us? Since they are the “souls of just men made perfect” would not their prayers “availeth much?” Wouldn’t they at least avail more than those of the saints on earth? These questions could be multiplied many times over to explore the two views to see which appears to be the most holy, loving, merciful, and God like. Afterall, it is God’s kingdom and his kingdom is most holy and sublime.
S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
I do understand what you are saying but the truth is we really don,t know. I really don,t know what the duties of the Heavenly Saints are. Thats up to the Lord to decide. Let me ask you this;Why is it that there are no longer marriges in heaven?Matt;22;30. Oh my dear wife is not going to like that.
Personally I believe the Lord wants US to cry out to Him with our prayers and petitions. He wants to hear it from our own hearts. He alone is the mediator. Thats His job. Thats why He is in heaven seated at the right hand of the Father .God Bless P/S Do pray that God will give you the heavenly language that only the Holy Spirit and our Lord understand. It,s perfect prayer Pax.
P
Pax
Guest
Here is another verse that says something about what heavenly figures do on our behalf. This verse refers directly to angels, but remember, we too will be like angels and there is “no” reason to believe that the heavenly saints would not participate in this as well as angels. In Hebrews 1:14 it says, “Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, **for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation?” **
You are right to say that we really don’t know for sure whether saints pray for us, but ask yourself whether or not absolute knowledge is really necessary. Afterall, there are many things that we take as matters of “faith” that we do not have absolute knowledge of. This includes our belief in the existence of God, heaven, hell, Jesus, and many other things. If we had certain and complete knowledge of all of these truths we wouldn’t have or need faith.
Marriages in heaven? That is really an unrelated question, but there is an answer. As small children, we do not have any interest in marriage, but we certainly feel the need for relationships with our parents and family. As a adults, marriage becomes the ultimate earthly relationship, but Christians still recognize that earthly marriage is still a lesser relationship than both the one they have with Christ now and the one that they will have with Him in heaven.
Human beings are designed and wired by God for relationships, and the ultimate relationship is the heavenly relationship as members of the body of Christ. In this relationship we are being changed. Scripture tells us in:
2 Cor 3:18 “And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.”
Philipians 3:20-21
“But our commonwealth is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,** who will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body**, by the power which enables him even to subject all things to himself.”
2 Peter 1:3-4
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.
John 10:34-36
"Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came (and scripture cannot be broken), do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?”
The change that God will complete in us when we are face to face in heaven is obviously not fully known. It is clear, however, that God’s plans are extremely bountiful for Scripture tells us that “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him,”[1 Co 2:9]
So what should we take from all of this. Clearly, everything is about relationships. Earthly relationships are but a reflection and hint of the heavenly relationship with God. Jesus prays in John 17 that we will be one as He and the Father are one. He even says “that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us… I in them and thou in me…” If we truly have Christ and the Holy Spirit within us, and if we are united to Christ as his body, then we can see that the change that is consumated by entering heaven is of incredible significance. This is the marriage feast of the Lamb spoken of in Revelation.
This marriage feast of the Lamb transcends and dwarfs all of our experiences and images of an earthly marriage. We will be transformed. This transformation might be likened to a caterpillar that is transformed into a butterfly. Like the butterfly, we will no longer care for the life of the caterpillar. Earthly marriage will be insignificant. Earthly marriage will only be a past and dim reflection and sign to us of the marriage feast of the Lamb that brings to fruition all that God has in store for us.
I hope this helps.
You are right to say that we really don’t know for sure whether saints pray for us, but ask yourself whether or not absolute knowledge is really necessary. Afterall, there are many things that we take as matters of “faith” that we do not have absolute knowledge of. This includes our belief in the existence of God, heaven, hell, Jesus, and many other things. If we had certain and complete knowledge of all of these truths we wouldn’t have or need faith.
Marriages in heaven? That is really an unrelated question, but there is an answer. As small children, we do not have any interest in marriage, but we certainly feel the need for relationships with our parents and family. As a adults, marriage becomes the ultimate earthly relationship, but Christians still recognize that earthly marriage is still a lesser relationship than both the one they have with Christ now and the one that they will have with Him in heaven.
Human beings are designed and wired by God for relationships, and the ultimate relationship is the heavenly relationship as members of the body of Christ. In this relationship we are being changed. Scripture tells us in:
2 Cor 3:18 “And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.”
Philipians 3:20-21
“But our commonwealth is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,** who will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body**, by the power which enables him even to subject all things to himself.”
2 Peter 1:3-4
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.
John 10:34-36
"Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came (and scripture cannot be broken), do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?”
The change that God will complete in us when we are face to face in heaven is obviously not fully known. It is clear, however, that God’s plans are extremely bountiful for Scripture tells us that “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him,”[1 Co 2:9]
So what should we take from all of this. Clearly, everything is about relationships. Earthly relationships are but a reflection and hint of the heavenly relationship with God. Jesus prays in John 17 that we will be one as He and the Father are one. He even says “that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us… I in them and thou in me…” If we truly have Christ and the Holy Spirit within us, and if we are united to Christ as his body, then we can see that the change that is consumated by entering heaven is of incredible significance. This is the marriage feast of the Lamb spoken of in Revelation.
This marriage feast of the Lamb transcends and dwarfs all of our experiences and images of an earthly marriage. We will be transformed. This transformation might be likened to a caterpillar that is transformed into a butterfly. Like the butterfly, we will no longer care for the life of the caterpillar. Earthly marriage will be insignificant. Earthly marriage will only be a past and dim reflection and sign to us of the marriage feast of the Lamb that brings to fruition all that God has in store for us.
I hope this helps.
P
Pax
Guest
You are certainly right to say that the Lord wants us to cry out to him with our prayers and petitions and that he wants to hear it from our own hearts. You are wrong to suggest, however, that it is us and Jesus alone in matters involving prayer. Jesus is the one mediator between God and Man in terms of rendering propitiation, atonement, expiation, and redemption. Only his suffering and death fulfill the sacrificial requirements for our redemption. No one else’s blood was shed or could be shed to purchase our salvation.…
Personally I believe the Lord wants US to cry out to Him with our prayers and petitions. He wants to hear it from our own hearts. He alone is the mediator. Thats His job. Thats why He is in heaven seated at the right hand of the Father. God Bless P/S Do pray that God will give you the heavenly language that only the Holy Spirit and our Lord understand. It,s perfect prayer Pax.
Jesus, as the one mediator between God and man, does not preclude other forms of subordinate mediation that are performed by us. Christ gives us a share in his mediation by sending us to evangelize, baptize, teach, prophesy, heal, and other things in his name. These are all forms of mediation that are subordinate to the one mediation of Christ, and they are granted to us as members of the body of Christ on earth. Prayer is also a form of subordinate mediation and scripture tells us to pray for one another. It really isn’t even optional. It is, instead, part and parcel of the divine plan.
P
Pax
Guest
As far as speaking/praying in tongues is concerned, I can only say that I leave that up to the Lord. I am open to whatever gifts he sees fit to give me or He sees that I need. I do, however, actively pray for the greater gifts spoken of by Paul at the end of 1 Cor 12 and continuing through all of Chapter 13.
S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
. Of couse we are to pray for one another. The Word does say we are to pray for one another. There is only one mediator by which are prayers are heard and that is through Jesus Christ. There is no other way.Yes God has called us to be His hands extended.That is His plan for He has no other. I believe we are pretty much saying the same thing.
God Bless
S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
Would you even question recieving a gift from the Lord? Ask and you shall recieve.
God Bless- Status