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Saints whose bodies are incorrupt after buried... for centuries
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Bob_Crowley
Guest
No. He was baptised Catholic, and my mother said that at one stage he was an altarboy to the Archbishop of Sydney, since he was born in Sydney. The family moved to Northern NSW when he was still a kid.
He lost his faith. I don’t know the reason, but I think the Second World War had something to do with it. I remember him saying that if anyone knew what was going on in the concentration camps, God did, and He didn’t do a single thing about it.
However he was quite cruel to his family and during the proceedings on the night he died said to me, “I’ve completely destroyed your confidence … I did it deliberately … I’ve been an absolute mongrel to you.” And the reason? “I was jealous. I didn’t have the same opportunities as you did.” True, but that was a universal situation - most Australian men of that generation didn’t have the same opportunities as their children. The great majority of them left school at the age of 12 or 13 and went to work if there was a job available. Most of them didn’t set out to destroy their own son’s lives almost as a matter of personal policy.
No - he wasn’t religious. In fact, despite the fact he’d been brought up in the Catholic Church, he had me baptised Presbyterian (which was probably the worst church he could have chosen) as a stupid act of rebellion. My sister wasn’t baptised at all. I was fortunate that when I did become Christian, and went to the Presbyterian Church as I had some prior experience in Sunday School years before, my first, wisest and most outstanding pastor was actually a Methodist by training.
A few years later, during a discussion with the above pastor, when I pointed out that in a sense God had taken me out of the Catholic Church via my father, he commented, “I think the Lord might want you to go back there. (The Catholic Church). I think he might use you to bring the churches together somehow. It will probably destroy you. There’s still a lot of tension between Protestants and Catholics”.
Incidentally I’ve already lost one job partly as a result of the lies and machinations of a particular Presbyterian pastor, whom I have no doubt continues to tell lies about me to this day. Even my Catholic psychiatrist told me that he’d treated eight Presbyterian pastors for stress related breakdown due to the same pastor when he was the moderator of the local state Presbyterian Church. So don’t worry, Pharisees are alive and well even today.
Well, I’ve gone Catholic. I’m still waiting to see how God intends to bring the churches together, or go part of the way. But my father is in Hell, as far as I’m concerned. I still remember the scream 31 years later. He was terrified to the core of his being.
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KathleenGee
Guest
(Bob,
Cover your entire being with the Blood of Christ…and the Blessed Mother has great power as our advocate. She has the grace to form Christ in her womb. Mary has the grace to re-form us to the point that we can come to a point that completely eradicates anything any wrong has done to our psyches.
There is a book out by a Protestant minister, ‘Clergy Killer’. People in ministry in all denominations can go through alot of abuse by psychopathic and obsessive personalities. I was hit several times in two different locations by lay people, and the injury can really damage one to the point of loss of faith in God…let alone one’s church. A cover-up church is a very dangerous place because people are told not to talk, to put it all in God’s hands, and the abuser continues on.)
Cover your entire being with the Blood of Christ…and the Blessed Mother has great power as our advocate. She has the grace to form Christ in her womb. Mary has the grace to re-form us to the point that we can come to a point that completely eradicates anything any wrong has done to our psyches.
There is a book out by a Protestant minister, ‘Clergy Killer’. People in ministry in all denominations can go through alot of abuse by psychopathic and obsessive personalities. I was hit several times in two different locations by lay people, and the injury can really damage one to the point of loss of faith in God…let alone one’s church. A cover-up church is a very dangerous place because people are told not to talk, to put it all in God’s hands, and the abuser continues on.)
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lax16
Guest
Bob - Thanks for sharing your story.
I know this is off-topic but:
Have you tried praying the Divine Mercy for your father?
I find it is very comforting/healing to pray for the soul of a person that was difficult to deal with when they were alive on earth. I can’t explain it, but the Divine Mercy novena has a way of bypassing the person and focusing on their soul.
Just a thought…
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crazzeto
Guest
Not a bad idea on the off chance that it wasn’t hell he was sent to but perhaps purgatory which might well seem exactly like hell to anyone who is unprepared for it. Even still, it might still help with regard to bringing peace to you. I think this is the second time I’ve heard you share your story bob, and I would like to thank you as well for sharing it. I want to say that, even though I’m not personally sure whether or not to accept it as an authentic vision since I didn’t experience it my self… It’s still very profound and well worth the rest of us meditating upon it as it certainly has great value as a reminder of what we’re fighting for each and every day, our very own souls!
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KathleenGee
Guest
Bob shared this story some time ago and it affected us very deeply…
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Bob_Crowley
Guest
To be honest with you, I’ve never really had a problem with lay people (yet), although there were a couple I think who used to talk behind my back.
In my own case, I think I was led to join the Presbyterian Church at the very time my old pastor and his family had recently started in that parish. Although I’ve said before that he discouraged me, I also learnt a great deal from him. As for his personal effectiveness, he built up an inner city church from a membership of about 4 regular attenders to an overall membership of about 150, which is realistically about as much as a single pastor can handle. In his own words, “Anyone who knows anything about church building knows that inner city church building is deadly. If you want to build a big church, you go to the outer suburbs where the young families are.”
I also think I was led to the particular Catholic psychiatrist. For example he was the one who told me that he’d treated eight Presbyterian pastors for stress related breakdown due to the same pastor / moderator who caused me trouble. Mind you he wasn’t the only factor.
Even my old pastor himself predicted that the ‘moderator’ would “get hold of this church after I’m gone and wreck it! But he can’t touch the people”. Sure enough the old pastor died from cancer at 3am and bug-a-lug (as he called him) convened a meeting at 6am to get control of the church as I later found out. Nor did the Assembly even have the courtesy to send a representative to the funeral.
I’m afraid I think the Presbyterian Assembly in Queensland is a peculiarly ***gutless ***bunch, too scared to rebuke a single member of their fraternity, while he himself goes around wrecking churches built up over years, and destroying the careers and damaging the lives of their fellow pastors. But that’s just my personal opinion.
Within a few months he’d so alienated the congregation that 80% of them left, and a lot of them joined the Wesleyan Methodists, at the time. As the old pastor predicted, he wrecked the parish church, but couldn’t touch the people.
But that’s by the by.
I do have a book on the shelves, “Surviving Friendly Fire”, another Protestant book about the same sort of thing, dealing with both pastors and lay people. I’m afraid my bookshelf tends to be still Protestant dominated, partly due to the fact I’ve retained a lot of books from pre-conversion days, but also there are far more Protestant book shops around here, and as a consequence they are easier to get to. I may be wrong, but in Brisbane I can think of only one major Catholic bookstore and that is associated with the Cathedral. So unless one is in the city itself, the only other option is to go browsing through the large well equipped Protestant book stores in the suburbs.
And a part time job I’ve recently started puts me within about 400 metres of a Creation Science bookstore. Where’s our Catholic representation?
But Paul had the same experience of “friendly fire”, and that was a long time ago. As my old pastor used to quip, “So what’s new?”
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KathleenGee
Guest
Bob,
We are indeed living in the Great Apostasy and the Evil One is doing all he can to destroy public churches.
All I can say is to return to the Catholic church and the sacraments, but to trust in God alone and be in community. There is so much grace and sacramentals…
And getting back to the incorruptibles…great signs of a new life that awaits us.
I have a nun friend who was a missionary in Alaska…she worked very closely with a Jesuit priest who flew a plane…they worked with the indigenous people…After he died, she said she felt his presence for 3 weeks and kept hearing this message,
“Friend, Jesus is Tremendous!..Jesus is Tremendous!”…and the closer you come to Him in this life you begin to discover another great reality, no matter the world around us…that heaven is already here!!!
We are indeed living in the Great Apostasy and the Evil One is doing all he can to destroy public churches.
All I can say is to return to the Catholic church and the sacraments, but to trust in God alone and be in community. There is so much grace and sacramentals…
And getting back to the incorruptibles…great signs of a new life that awaits us.
I have a nun friend who was a missionary in Alaska…she worked very closely with a Jesuit priest who flew a plane…they worked with the indigenous people…After he died, she said she felt his presence for 3 weeks and kept hearing this message,
“Friend, Jesus is Tremendous!..Jesus is Tremendous!”…and the closer you come to Him in this life you begin to discover another great reality, no matter the world around us…that heaven is already here!!!
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Bob_Crowley
Guest
I have no trouble whatsoever believing your friend’s story. I’ve had far too many spiritual experiences of my own these days. Even when the old pastor died, this real sense of “peace” descended into the bedroom for a good half an hour where I was lying awake thinking about things. It would have been about 3am, which is when he died.
I hadn’t been told he’d died, although I had a suspicion since I knew he was dying in hospital. I got a phone call next morning confirming his death.
There’s a spiritual world out there all right. The trouble is that a lot of the time we’re more aware of the demonic than of the divine, in this world of violence and trouble.
Like you I think there’s a lot of trouble coming. And I suspect the three main initial flashpoints will be the Middle East, India / Pakistan and the North / South Korean problem. I’ll be interested to see what happens over the recent Korean torpedo incident for example. And the Taliban seem far from defeated in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
The message of Akita keeps coming to me -
*"Beginning on September 20, 1973, the statue began to sweat from the face to the feet. Tears began to flow down the face. Also, a very pleasant odor was felt in the chapel. This happened many times in the presence of others, including the Bishop. In all, the statue wept a total of 101 times. On October 13, 1973, Our Lady gave Sister Sasagawa this serious message: “As I said before if mankind does not repent, the Heavenly Father will inflict a very serious punishment on the whole world; a punishment the likes of which has never happened before. Many people will perish. Pray the Rosary often. Only I can prevent the disaster. Whoever entrusts themselves to me will be saved.”
The statue continued to weep and other messages followed. Pilgrims came and many received answers to their prayers. Then, in 1981, Theresa Chon, who was suffering from terminal brain cancer, was miraculously healed through the intercession of Our Lady of Akita. This healing was well documented by Fr. Joseph Oh of Seoul, S. Korea.
In his pastoral letter, Bishop Ito said that it would have been difficult to believe in a message from Our Lady that is so terrible, unless there was overwhelming proof that it was indeed from Her. But he points out that the terrible chastisement of which Our Lady speaks is on the condition: “If men do not repent and do not better themselves . . .” The Bishop added it is a serious warning, while at the same time one perceives in it the maternal love of Our Lady. In Her message warning the world of the annihilation of a great part of humanity, She said: “The thought of the loss of numerous souls makes me sad.”*
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anode
Guest
…getting back to incorrupt bodies, a lot has been said on this topic on this forum and on phatmass.
As Protestants don’t canonize people, they don’t dig up bodies very often, and public institutions don’t also, except rarely in forensic cases.
A link on Wiki,
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorruptibility
…includes a number of photos of saints with wax and silicone masks, including Bernadette. A number of other older saints appear to be clearly mummified-they are shrunken and discolored. On the pictures included in the link in the beginning of this thread, a number of the faces appear clearly reconstructed or mask-like, with 19th c. features. Blaise looks like a statue. He looks rather tall and plump, not like a typical 4th c. person. Bernadette in death,
catholicpilgrims.com/lourdes/bb_bernadette_body.htm
…does not resemble the wax image. Her corpse was thin and wasted, with sunken eyes, an aquiline nose , thin lips and small chin, a pale shadow of her round face at the time of the apparitions.
There are many factors influencing putrefaction. As others have mentioned, most people up to the present, died without parenteral nutrition, after prolonged starvation, vomiting, diarrhea, being treated with poisons–mercury, arsenic, and lead—in utensils, medicines and food. They had lost most of their body fat and gut bacteria, factors contributing to putrefaction. Others are buried in lead casket (Bernadette) or in an alkaline environment. One reads of bodies of saints discovered to be preserved, but later to have discolored, like Bernadette, or eaten away by lime added to the casket, or on later exhumations, to have disintegrated. All of this argues for a natural scientific explanation. Otherwise, nothing should have been able to alter the bodies.
Of note is who* doesn’t *remain ‘incorruptible’-- St. Therese is a prime example. Pius XII, widely regarded as saintly, was inexpertly embalmed and began to putrefy before he was buried. (John XXIII was embalmed, by his own insistence.)
Other links from iidb and skeptic (not Catholic sights, of course)–discuss incorruptibility and include links to well-preserved mummies and even Charles I, who was no saint and had a surprisingly well-preserved (severed) head.
As Protestants don’t canonize people, they don’t dig up bodies very often, and public institutions don’t also, except rarely in forensic cases.
A link on Wiki,
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorruptibility
…includes a number of photos of saints with wax and silicone masks, including Bernadette. A number of other older saints appear to be clearly mummified-they are shrunken and discolored. On the pictures included in the link in the beginning of this thread, a number of the faces appear clearly reconstructed or mask-like, with 19th c. features. Blaise looks like a statue. He looks rather tall and plump, not like a typical 4th c. person. Bernadette in death,
catholicpilgrims.com/lourdes/bb_bernadette_body.htm
…does not resemble the wax image. Her corpse was thin and wasted, with sunken eyes, an aquiline nose , thin lips and small chin, a pale shadow of her round face at the time of the apparitions.
There are many factors influencing putrefaction. As others have mentioned, most people up to the present, died without parenteral nutrition, after prolonged starvation, vomiting, diarrhea, being treated with poisons–mercury, arsenic, and lead—in utensils, medicines and food. They had lost most of their body fat and gut bacteria, factors contributing to putrefaction. Others are buried in lead casket (Bernadette) or in an alkaline environment. One reads of bodies of saints discovered to be preserved, but later to have discolored, like Bernadette, or eaten away by lime added to the casket, or on later exhumations, to have disintegrated. All of this argues for a natural scientific explanation. Otherwise, nothing should have been able to alter the bodies.
Of note is who* doesn’t *remain ‘incorruptible’-- St. Therese is a prime example. Pius XII, widely regarded as saintly, was inexpertly embalmed and began to putrefy before he was buried. (John XXIII was embalmed, by his own insistence.)
Other links from iidb and skeptic (not Catholic sights, of course)–discuss incorruptibility and include links to well-preserved mummies and even Charles I, who was no saint and had a surprisingly well-preserved (severed) head.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Yes, anode, I have seen mummies’ pictures all over the world, National Geographic comes out over the years with such stories and pictures…fascinating for anyone.
Yes, Bernadette’s pictures changed…I saw two fotos of her from two exhumations…and yes, there were elements as you describe and we all know about the wax over face…but her spiritual beauty comes through…
that is the point.
Yes, Bernadette’s pictures changed…I saw two fotos of her from two exhumations…and yes, there were elements as you describe and we all know about the wax over face…but her spiritual beauty comes through…
that is the point.
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CatholicFireman
Guest
Amen to that. It’s our faith and I often wonder why people come on here (it seems) with the soul purpose to discredit our faith. This is a Catholic forum and all are welcome, but if some do not like our faith and feel the need to discredit (therefore disrespect) it, then why not join or start another forum on the internet. It boggles my mind.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Exactly…or continually rehashing the real presence of the Eucharist or apostolic succession…pretty much by the same people…they have been told in many threads in many ways…and it looks like people want to break you down.
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Zooey
Guest
The book “The Incorruptibles” told me a lot about this phenomenon. I discussed it with my mother & grandmother, who both said, that after all, God can do whatever He chooses to do, & maybe this is a way to inspire some people to greater faith.
After all, it may take something very dramatic to touch folks’ hearts…This is like the thread on miracles; we doubt so many things these days, that I think we get in the way of miraculous happenings…
One person whose body was incorruptable, who was not a Christian, was the Hindu teacher Paramahansa Yogananda. But he was, after all,( as someone else pointed out about the Buddhist monk), a man of deep & abiding faith in & love for God.
After all, it may take something very dramatic to touch folks’ hearts…This is like the thread on miracles; we doubt so many things these days, that I think we get in the way of miraculous happenings…
One person whose body was incorruptable, who was not a Christian, was the Hindu teacher Paramahansa Yogananda. But he was, after all,( as someone else pointed out about the Buddhist monk), a man of deep & abiding faith in & love for God.
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AntiTheist
Guest
If you’re going to start a thread on a public forum implying that your religion’s holy people have been magically preserved in ways that other people have not, then you are opening up that claim to rational criticism. Almost anyone’s definition of rational criticism would include noting that there are other cases of bodies being preserved and noting that some of these preserved saints have begun to decay in various ways.
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Hesychios
Guest
Mythmaking abounds!
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
But on an almost daily basis Catholics in here set out to discredit and deligitimize people like Anglicans claiming they have an invalid priesthood despite the Utrecht consecrations (the Dutch Touch) and have no valid sacraments. I detailed a Eucharistic miracle that my own Anglican bishop experienced where he actually met and saw Christ Himself. It changed his life and he actually took a vow of celibacy over the experience. I’ve heard him speak of it on more than one occasion. He spoke with me about it about a month ago, almost in tears with an ear to ear smile of joy. He’s been on fire for Christ for 40 plus years because of it. When I told this story a day or two ago, an ardent Catholic poster (and anti-Anglican hardcore) said that the devil created a false vision and my bishop was really encountering a diabolical phenomenon, not Christ. It goes both ways, Fireman. People all over here, Catholic and Protestant and Orthodox, try to discredit each other’s visions, experiences, history, theology, dogma, and faith. It’s a bummer…for both sides!
Amen to that. It’s our faith and I often wonder why people come on here (it seems) with the soul purpose to discredit our faith. This is a Catholic forum and all are welcome, but if some do not like our faith and feel the need to discredit (therefore disrespect) it, then why not join or start another forum on the internet. It boggles my mind.
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Hesychios
Guest
Wait a minute!
The people here are discussing the non-corruption of saints as a sign of something … special?
Now you are saying that although this person is clearly not incorruptible the point is her spiritual beauty comes through her wax mask?
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KathleenGee
Guest
Hesychios,
Do you know anything about the testimony of her sanctity?? Her simplicity?? There is a movie out, ‘The Song of Bernadette’.
The Lord is God and He will do what He wants with people who are sincere and simple and live heroic Christian lives.
Do you know anything about the testimony of her sanctity?? Her simplicity?? There is a movie out, ‘The Song of Bernadette’.
The Lord is God and He will do what He wants with people who are sincere and simple and live heroic Christian lives.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Anti-Theist,
We all acknowledge the work the atheists did on preserving Lenin’s body…remarkable!!
Eva Peron was another one…
Man made preservations.
We all acknowledge the work the atheists did on preserving Lenin’s body…remarkable!!
Eva Peron was another one…
Man made preservations.
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