Salvation by works? Amen!

[De_Maria]

I’m a faithful Catholic. But I’ve noticed that some Catholic Apologists are fond of saying that the Church doesn’t teach Salvation by works. But that is incomplete. I say, “The Church teaches that salvation is based on works, BY THE GRACE OF GOD.”

1. Ordinarily, neither faith nor works merit salvation.

But we aren’t in ordinary times. We are in the time of grace living under the Covenant of Grace. And it is this grace which is freely given. And this grace is the grace to merit our salvation. God has tied our salvation to our works, has He not?

Matthew 16
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works.

1. Salvation tied to works? Yes.

So, it seems contradictory to say that salvation is tied to works and not faith and works. But it isn’t. Faith is itself a work:

John 6 29 Jesus answered, and said to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent.

It just happens that this work is more important than all the others because without it:

Hebrews 11 6 But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.

1. So, here’s my logic.

If God decides who is saved BASED ON what they’ve done. In other words, based on WORKS:

Matthew 16
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works.

Then GOD has tied salvation to works (i.e. faith and works).

I mean, God has even prepared these works beforehand that we may walk in them:

Ephesians 2
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

So how can anyone say that we don’t have a salvation based on works? Certainly we do. Its by God’s grace that we do. And if anyone doesn’t believe it, then let them try to get into heaven without faith or deeds worthy of repentance.

Illustration:

Lets say I’m in the desert, starving and dying of thirst and I come upon this mansion. The owner is lounging inside his gate. I walk up and ask, “Sir, may I come in and get something to eat and drink?” Now the man doesn’t have to let me in at all. Its his house and if he considers my request at all, that is a gift in itself. But he says, “Bring me two grains of sand and I’ll gladly let you in. But if you don’t bring me two grains of sand, I won’t let you in.”

The owner has tied my entering his house to my response. He is basing his “gift” on my action. If I believe him, if I show faith in him and bring what he wants, I’m in. If I don’t believe him, I won’t obey and I’ll stand outside and die.

Its an “IF” statement, plain and simple. If this, then that. If we work (i.e. faith and works), we are saved.

“But”, you say, “if we have to work for the gift, its not a gift.”

That is not necessarily so. At work, our Company gives us “gifts” all the time. Watches, meals, pins. Why? Some because we merit them based on performance. Some simply because we are employees. So, why are they gifts? Because there is no requirement that they do so. Its not in our contract. They are free will gifts. If they ever decide to no longer give them, even those based on performance, there is no way we can force them to do so.

But guess what, some are BASED on performance. In the same way, salvation is BASED on works. No one is twisting God’s arm to save us. He is giving us a FREE WILL GIFT.

**Bottomline: **

I believe its an error to say that the Church does not teach salvation based on works. It is by God’s grace that this is so.

Correct me if I’m wrong.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[mackbrislawn]

Indeed, Jesus make it clear that Christians must produce fruit.

“I am the vine, you are the branches. A branch that does not produce fruit will be cut off, dry up, and be cast into the fire.”

Of course we must not boast about our fruit, because:

“Without me you can do nothing.”

The vine enables the branch to bear fruit, the branch can’t do it on its own. But, the branch MUST bear fruit, it is not an option.

 

[Pax]

I get and appreciate your points, but the language in your post is at times inappropriate and not in keeping with Catholic teaching and the bible.

It is improper to say that “salvation is by works.” It is, instead, appropriate to state that salvation is by grace. This can be amplified to include statements that “we are saved by Christ alone.” We can also say that we are saved by grace through faith and works but not by faith alone.

If we say that “salvation is by works” even with your additional statements we can begin to slip off the track. Arguments can be made from scripture that we are saved by:

–works

–faith

–grace

–sanctification

–baptism

–endurance

–love

–obedience

The only one of the these that qualifies to have the word “alone” associated with it for salvation is the term “grace.” When we make a blanket statement that “salvation is by works” we run into making a linguistic equivalency to “salvation by grace.” This is where I have the problem with the way you presented your point.

I think that you have a good grasp of how we are saved but I think that the way that you have articulated it is problematic.

 

[De_Maria]

I get and appreciate your points,

Hi, thanks.

but the language in your post is at times inappropriate and not in keeping with Catholic teaching and the bible.

Its alright to say so. But I usually expect proof. Here’s what the Bible says:
Psalms 6113 And mercy to thee, O Lord; for thou wilt render to every man according to his works.

This is what the Catechism says:
**2027 **No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. **Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, **as well as necessary temporal goods.

And here’s what the Council of Trent says:
*On the gift of Perseverance:

So also as regards the gift of perseverance, of which it is written, He that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved:-which gift cannot be derived from any other but Him, who is able to establish him who standeth that he stand perseveringly, and to restore him who falleth:-let no one herein promise himself any thing as certain with an absolute certainty; though all ought to place and repose a most firm hope in God’s help. For God, unless men be themselves wanting to His grace, as he has begun the good work, so will he perfect it, working (in them) to will and to accomplish. Nevertheless, let those who think themselves to stand, take heed lest they fall, and, with fear and trembling work out their salvation, in labours, in watchings, in almsdeeds, in prayers and oblations, in fastings and chastity: for, knowing that they are born again unto a hope of glory, but not as yet unto glory, they ought to fear for the combat which yet remains with the flesh, with the world, with the devil, wherein they cannot be victorious, unless they be with God’s grace, obedient to the Apostle, who says; We are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh; for if you live according to the flesh, you shall die; but if by the spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.*

It is improper to say that “salvation is by works.”

Why?

It is, instead, appropriate to state that salvation is by grace. This can be amplified to include statements that “we are saved by Christ alone.” We can also say that we are saved by grace through faith and works but not by faith alone.

But if we say that by the grace of God we are saved by works, what is wrong with that? It is precisely what God has willed.

If we say that “salvation is by works” even with your additional statements we can begin to slip off the track.

How do you know?

Arguments can be made from scripture that we are saved by:

–works

–faith

–grace

–sanctification

–baptism

–endurance

–love

–obedience

The only one of the these that qualifies to have the word “alone” associated with it for salvation is the term “grace.”

That would be the heresy of monergism (i.e. grace alone). None of these on your list may have the word alone behind them.

And why did you mention this anyway? Did I say, “saved by works alone”?

When we make a blanket statement that “salvation is by works” we run into making a linguistic equivalency to “salvation by grace.” This is where I have the problem with the way you presented your point.

You leave out, “by the grace of God”. And that is the crux of my argument. It is by the grace of God that we not only may, but we MUST work for our salvation:

Matthew 25 41 *Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. **43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. **44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? *45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

I think that you have a good grasp of how we are saved but I think that the way that you have articulated it is problematic.

Thanks. But if its simply a matter of being politically correct, I’m not a fan of that movement. So, I’d like something more solid than your simply saying:

It is improper to say that “salvation is by works.”

Thanks for responding however.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[guanophore]

I’m a faithful Catholic. But I’ve noticed that some Catholic Apologists are fond of saying that the Church doesn’t teach Salvation by works. But that is incomplete. I say, “The Church teaches that salvation is based on works, BY THE GRACE OF GOD.”

I think they key here is the word “based”. There is nothing that humans can do to merit our salvation. The only salvation that can be found is in the name of Jesus, who gave His life on the cross for our salvation. It is His sacrifice that is the basis for our salvation.
De Maria;4170938:

1. Ordinarily, neither faith nor works merit salvation.

But we aren’t in ordinary times. We are in the time of grace living under the Covenant of Grace. And it is this grace which is freely given. And this grace is the grace to merit our salvation. God has tied our salvation to our works, has He not?

I am not sure who you are referring to by the use of the word “we”. Only those who are saved by grace live under the covenant of grace. Yes, the grace is freely given, but the merit by which we are saved is that of Christ, and not of ourselves. Yes, salvation is tied to works, but the basis of that salvation is grace, not the works.

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according

to his works.

1. Salvation tied to works? Yes.

No, I don’t think so. The judgement will render according to works, but works are not the basis of salvation. However, I agree works are tied.

So, it seems contradictory to say that salvation is tied to works and not faith and works. But it isn’t. Faith is itself a work:

John 6 29 Jesus answered, and said to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent.

It just happens that this work is more important than all the others because without it:

Hebrews 11 6 But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.

I agree that faith is a work, but it is also not the basis of salvation. Grace is the basis. The sacrifice of Christ is the basis. Yes, faith and works are tied, but are not the Source.

1. So, here’s my logic.

If God decides who is saved BASED ON what they’ve done. In other words, based on WORKS:

Matthew 16
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works.

That is not what the passage states. It says that the Son of man will render every man according to his works. But works are not the basis of salvation.

Then GOD has tied salvation to works (i.e. faith and works).

I mean, God has even prepared these works beforehand that we may walk in them:

Ephesians 2
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

Yes, salvation is tied to works.

So how can anyone say that we don’t have a salvation based on works?

If you look back before that verse, you will see why. God’s Holy Word states that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not of ourselves, lest any man boast. It is grace that is the basis. The good works grow out of the grace, upon which they are based. Tied, but not the Source.

Certainly we do. Its by God’s grace that we do. And if anyone doesn’t believe it, then let them try to get into heaven without faith or deeds worthy of repentance.

The only “work” that gets us into heaven is the work that Jesus did on the cross. he was also quite clear that those who come at the last hour receive the same recompense as those who have worked hard the whole time. We cannot, by “trying” get into heaven at all. You see that the thief on the cross did not do any works that befit repentance, yet Jesus promised him paradise.

Illustration:
He is basing his “gift” on my action. If I believe him, if I show faith in him and bring what he wants, I’m in. If I don’t believe him, I won’t obey and I’ll stand outside and die.

I agree that salvation is tied to our actions, and that, if we don’t fulfill the conditions, then we cannot access the grace by which we are saved. Yet, it is not the actions that save us, but the grace to which they are tied.
Its an “IF” statement, plain and simple. If this, then that. If we work (i.e. faith and works), we are saved.

“But”, you say, “if we have to work for the gift, its not a gift.”

That is not necessarily so. At work, our Company gives us “gifts” all the time. Watches, meals, pins. Why? Some because we merit them based on performance. Some simply because we are employees. So, why are they gifts? Because there is no requirement that they do so. Its not in our contract. They are free will gifts. If they ever decide to no longer give them, even those based on performance, there is no way we can force them to do so.

I think you are mixing apples and oranges here. Yes, we can merit blessings and more grace, but these things are not the basis of our salvation. They grow out of the grace by which we are saved. While we were yet sinners (displeasing to God) Christ died for us.

De_Maria:

But guess what, some are BASED on performance. In the same way, salvation is BASED on works. No one is twisting God’s arm to save us. He is giving us a FREE WILL GIFT.

No. Rewards are based on performance. We can’t earn rewards until we are already in a state of grace. The salvation is based on the grace by which we perform. Performance is tied to it, but is not the source or the cause of it.

**Bottomline: **

I believe its an error to say that the Church does not teach salvation based on works. It is by God’s grace that this is so.

Correct me if I’m wrong.

Sincerely,

De Maria

It is good to see you grappling with this very difficult concept. I commend to you the catechism on justification.

 

[COPLAND_3]

Sometimes we all can be saying the same thing in different words. It would really surprise Southern Baptists and Catholics on how close we really are to believing the same thing but we think we are so different, I speak from experience.

First of all, we are saved by the grace of God, period. There are so many ways that God’s grace plays a part in our salvation, such as giving us the faith to believe, the grace that works through baptism, our response to God’s calling to Him, etc. To over simplify or to try to complicate is an error. Kind of like marriage, to say that all you need to do is just accept that man or woman as your personal companion would be incomplete and basically lack reverence for the covenant. But that is the first step to approaching marriage, but there is so much more in order for it to be something that I would call a marriage. So for those who say that all you need to do is to accept Jesus as your personal Savior and Lord, which is a very important step, but that falls short to being Christianity.

Just as the only way that we can have a successful marriage is for devotion from both man and woman, the same goes for our lives as Christians. God is totally faithful on His part, but there is that important role that we play too.

Something that I think is very important is this; when you are married it is very important to be committed to your spouse and to work hard at your marriage. But those things that you do for one another is done not out of having to it as much as doing it out of love. It is the wrong approach for either one of the couple to be keeping score. The same goes with being a Christian. We should worship God and do those things that God wants us to do not out of buisness as usual or to act like our Christian life is some points system, but out of love for God.

I think some of the little formulas that people try to articulate could be better clarified by first emphasizing what kind of attitude we approach our salvation. The Catholic life is not about following a rule book, nor is it some thing that exists soley on some little prayer that you prayed with a preacher in an altar call. It is a life long devotion to God.

 

[De_Maria]

I think they key here is the word “based”.

Now apparently God is using our works as a basis for our judgement.

Romans 2 6 Who will render to every man according to his works.

There is nothing that humans can do to merit our salvation.

Sure we can. God said so.

Obviously, the intrinsic value of our works is zero. But, In obedience of His Word, HE has given them the worth of our salvation.

Philippians 213 For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and toaccomplish, according to his good will.

Jesus makes it plain here:
Matthew 21 *28 But what think you? A certain man had two sons; and coming to the first, he said: Son, go work today in my vineyard. **29 And he answering, said: I will not. But afterwards, being moved with repentance, he went. **30 And coming to the other, he said in like manner. And he answering, said: I go, Sir; and he went not.**31 Which of the two did thefather’s will? They say to him: The first. Jesus saith to them: * Amen I say to you, that the publicans and the harlots shall go into the kingdom of God before you.

So, to work is the Father’s will AND if we don’t work, we will not be saved.

John 15 2 Every branch in me, that beareth not fruit, he will take away: and every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

The only salvation that can be found is in the name of Jesus,

I know that. But He said:
John 14 15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

who gave His life on the cross for our salvation. It is His sacrifice that is the basis for our salvation.

True. But just as there is more than one foundation for our faith:
Ephesians 2 20 Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:

There is more than one basis for our salvation. EVERYTHING IS BASED ON CHRIST’S SACRIFICE ON THE CROSS. But God has willed to base His Judgement on our response of faith to that sacrifice.

I am not sure who you are referring to by the use of the word “we”. Only those who are saved by grace live under the covenant of grace.

Obviously to those who respond and give a return to God’s grace.

Yes, the grace is freely given, but the merit by which we are saved is that of Christ, and not of ourselves.

Sorry, but Christ has MERITED (condign merit) so that we can merit (congruent merit). It is because of His dignity as God that we, having been joined to His Body in Baptism, may now merit eternal life.

Yes, salvation is tied to works,

Therefore it is based on works. When the decision is made, who will be saved and who won’t, that decision will be based on who worked and who didn’t.

but the basis of that salvation is grace, not the works.

It is both grace and our response to that grace. The first step to salvation is initial justification. And we must cooperate and accept this grace:

The Council of Trent

*On the necessity, in adults, of preparation for Justification, and whence it proceeds:

The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you, we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer; Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted, we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God.*

No, I don’t think so. The judgement will render according to works, but works are not the basis of salvation. However, I agree works are tied.

I agree that faith is a work, but it is also not the basis of salvation. Grace is the basis. The sacrifice of Christ is the basis. Yes, faith and works are tied, but are not the Source.

Certainly the primary basis for our salvation is the sacrifice of Christ. But Christ has willed that our salvation is also based on our works.

Continued

 

[De_Maria]

Continued

guanophore:

That is not what the passage states. It says that the Son of man will render every man according to his works. But works are not the basis of salvation.

But the basis of the decision will be the works. If we work, we will be saved, if we don’t work or if we commit evil works, we will be condemned.

Yes, salvation is tied to works.

Agreed.

If you look back before that verse, you will see why. God’s Holy Word states that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not of ourselves, lest any man boast. It is grace that is the basis. The good works grow out of the grace, upon which they are based. Tied, but not the Source.

I didn’t say they were the source. Look upon it as a great big if statement.

FIRST BASIS
If Jesus had not died on the Cross, we would not be saved.

SECOND BASIS
Jesus did die on the Cross. therefore, IF we cooperate with His grace we will be saved.

The only “work” that gets us into heaven is the work that Jesus did on the cross. he was also quite clear that those who come at the last hour receive the same recompense as those who have worked hard the whole time.

There’s two aspects to heaven. First we get in (same recompense, salvation). Note that they all worked. Even if some just barely.

and then God the Father decides who sits where. Obviously, the right hand of the Father is already taken, and the right hand of the Son is already taken. That leaves us a lot of room for God to say to us, “move higher my friend.:”

Mark 10 40 But to sit on my right hand, or on my left, is not mine to give to you, but to them for whom it is prepared.

John 14 2 In my Father’s house there are many mansions. If not, I would have told you: because I go to prepare a place for you.

We cannot, by “trying” get into heaven at all.

Certainly we can. Trying to get into heaven is what its all about.

You see that the thief on the cross did not do any works that befit repentance, yet Jesus promised him paradise.

Huh?

1. Imitatio Christi - the imitation of Christ is what we are all about. This man carried his cross beside Christ, died on the Cross beside Christ. How much more does one have to imitate Christ?
2. Romans 8 17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so,** if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.**

This man suffered with Christ!

1. Suffering expiates sin. Everyone knows that crucifixion is one of the most painful ways to die. This man was a mere thief. Suffering on the Cross for the crime of stealing must have been more than sufficient for this man to expiate his sin on this earth.
2. This man had the presence of mind to defend Christ while he was suffering on the Cross.

Luke 23
39 And one of those robbers who were hanged, blasphemed him, saying: If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering, rebuked him, saying: Neither dost thou fear God, seeing thou art condemned under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this man hath done no evil.

And finally, his words, enshrined in the Word of God forever, are a work of gold. How many people have been converted by his words through the centuries? How many consoled? I count myself among them. St. Dismas pray for me!

If those works don’t befit repentance, what does?

I agree that salvation is tied to our actions, and that, if we don’t fulfill the conditions, then we cannot access the grace by which we are saved.

Amen!

Yet, it is not the actions that save us, but the grace to which they are tied.

This is much like the faith alone discussion I have with the Protestants.

They say, Faith alone saves you.

I respond, Scripture says, “faith without works is dead”.

They say, Of course! Faith without works is a dead faith. But faith alone saves you.

That makes no sense. If faith must be accompanied by works, then faith is not alone.

In the same way, if we must work to be saved because grace is tied to our works, then our salvation is based on our works. It is God’s will that this is so.

I think you are mixing apples and oranges here. Yes, we can merit blessings and more grace, but these things are not the basis of our salvation. They grow out of the grace by which we are saved. While we were yet sinners (displeasing to God) Christ died for us.

**2010 **Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

No. Rewards are based on performance. We can’t earn rewards until we are already in a state of grace.

Exactly what the Church teaches and what I’m saying.

The salvation is based on the grace by which we perform. Performance is tied to it, but is not the source or the cause of it.

It is based on that performance. Because if we don’t perform, we have rejected that grace.

It is good to see you grappling with this very difficult concept. I commend to you the catechism on justification.

It is from the Catechism and the Scriptures and the Early Fathers and the Council of Trent that I’ve learned what I’ve posted.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Pax]

Please show me where the Church and the bible say that “salvation is by works” or that “salvation is based on works.” You obviously understand salvation and I get your point, but your terminology is problematic when you use these phrases. Moreover, that phraseology is not found in the the canons of Trent, the CCC, or the bible.

My point rests on the importance of terminology as opposed to your understanding.

 

[guanophore]

Sometimes we all can be saying the same thing in different words. It would really surprise Southern Baptists and Catholics on how close we really are to believing the same thing but we think we are so different, I speak from experience.

First of all, we are saved by the grace of God, period. There are so many ways that God’s grace plays a part in our salvation, such as giving us the faith to believe, the grace that works through baptism, our response to God’s calling to Him, etc. To over simplify or to try to complicate is an error. Kind of like marriage, to say that all you need to do is just accept that man or woman as your personal companion would be incomplete and basically lack reverence for the covenant. But that is the first step to approaching marriage, but there is so much more in order for it to be something that I would call a marriage. So for those who say that all you need to do is to accept Jesus as your personal Savior and Lord, which is a very important step, but that falls short to being Christianity.

Just as the only way that we can have a successful marriage is for devotion from both man and woman, the same goes for our lives as Christians. God is totally faithful on His part, but there is that important role that we play too.

Something that I think is very important is this; when you are married it is very important to be committed to your spouse and to work hard at your marriage. But those things that you do for one another is done not out of having to it as much as doing it out of love. It is the wrong approach for either one of the couple to be keeping score. The same goes with being a Christian. We should worship God and do those things that God wants us to do not out of buisness as usual or to act like our Christian life is some points system, but out of love for God.

I think some of the little formulas that people try to articulate could be better clarified by first emphasizing what kind of attitude we approach our salvation. The Catholic life is not about following a rule book, nor is it some thing that exists soley on some little prayer that you prayed with a preacher in an altar call. It is a life long devotion to God.

Very well said! Thank you. :clapping:

 

[guanophore]

Now apparently God is using our works as a basis for our judgement.

Romans 2 6 Who will render to every man according to his works.

I agree. It is just that our works flow from our state, either being saved by grace, or under the wrath of God for disbelief. A good tree produces good fruit. This happens because of the nature of the tree.

Obviously, the intrinsic value of our works is zero. But, In obedience of His Word, HE has given them the worth of our salvation.

Philippians 213 For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and toaccomplish, according to his good will.

The good works are reflection that we are in a state of grace. We don’t earn the state of grace through our works. God works in us to accomplish His will BECAUSE we are saved by grace through faith, not on account of it.

Jesus makes it plain here:
Matthew 21 28 But what think you? A certain man had two sons; and coming to the first, he said: Son, go work today in my vineyard. **29 And he answering, said: I will not. But afterwards, being moved with repentance, he went. **30 And coming to the other, he said in like manner. And he answering, said: I go, Sir; and he went not.**31 Which of the two did thefather’s will? They say to him: The first. Jesus saith to them: Amen I say to you, that the publicans and the harlots shall go into the kingdom of God before you.

No, they both start out as sons. One can lose one’s heavenly reward by disobedience, but one cannot earn it by doing good works.

So, to work is the Father’s will AND if we don’t work, we will not be saved.

John 15 2 Every branch in me, that beareth not fruit, he will take away: and every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Branches, by definition, already belong to the vine. We are grafted into that vine by grace, not by works.

I know that. But He said:
John 14 15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

I agree, but we are unable to love Him at all until we are saved by grace through faith. Without faith, it is impossible to please Him, as you have correctly pointed out.

True. But just as there is more than one foundation for our faith:
Ephesians 2 20 Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:

Here the Apostle is speaking of the foundation of our Church, which is comprised of the saved.

There is more than one basis for our salvation.

No.

EVERYTHING IS BASED ON CHRIST’S SACRIFICE ON THE CROSS.

Yes.

But God has willed to base His Judgement on our response of faith to that sacrifice.

I agree. The basis for that response is grace.

Sorry, but Christ has MERITED (condign merit) so that we can merit (congruent merit). It is because of His dignity as God that we, having been joined to His Body in Baptism, may now merit eternal life.

Based on grace, not of works.

Therefore it is based on works.

No.

When the decision is made, who will be saved and who won’t, that decision will be based on who worked and who didn’t.

No, the passage on the judgement is talking about those who are already saved, or already condemned. Those that are in a state of grace will produce good works which befit repentance. Those who are in a state of rebellion against God will produce selfishness because that is human nature. Reward is based on works. Salvation is based on grace.

It is both grace and our response to that grace. The first step to salvation is initial justification. And we must cooperate and accept this grace:

The Council of Trent

*On the necessity, in adults, of preparation for Justification, and whence it proceeds:

The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration*, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you, we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer; Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted, we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God.

Certainly the primary basis for our salvation is the sacrifice of Christ.

Yes.

But Christ has willed that our salvation is also based on our works.

No. the fact that works are tied does not make them a basis. There is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved but Christ.

 

[guanophore]

But the basis of the decision will be the works. If we work, we will be saved, if we don’t work or if we commit evil works, we will be condemned.

I didn’t say they were the source. Look upon it as a great big if statement.

FIRST BASIS
If Jesus had not died on the Cross, we would not be saved.

SECOND BASIS
Jesus did die on the Cross. therefore, IF we cooperate with His grace we will be saved.

There’s two aspects to heaven. First we get in (same recompense, salvation). Note that they all worked. Even if some just barely.

And the thief?

Certainly we can. Trying to get into heaven is what its all about.

Well, we see it differently.

1. Imitatio Christi - the imitation of Christ is what we are all about. This man carried his cross beside Christ, died on the Cross beside Christ. How much more does one have to imitate Christ?

He did not do it for Christ. In fact, as he himself testified, he was suffering the just punishment for his own sins.

Had he been imitating Christ, he would not be sentenced for wrongdoing!

1. Romans 8 17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so,** if we suffer** with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

This man suffered with Christ!

No, he suffered next to him. It is not the same thing… The thief on the other side did the same.

1. Suffering expiates sin. Everyone knows that crucifixion is one of the most painful ways to die. This man was a mere thief. Suffering on the Cross for the crime of stealing must have been more than sufficient for this man to expiate his sin on this earth.

Really? Then how come the Church does not venerate the thief on the other side?

4.  This man had the presence of mind to defend Christ while he was suffering on the Cross.

Ah! A profession of faith! One thing he did that the other thief did not do.

[Luke 23](http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=23&l=39&f=s#x)

39 And one of those robbers who were hanged, blasphemed him, saying: If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering, rebuked him, saying: Neither dost thou fear God, seeing thou art condemned under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this man hath done no evil.

And finally, his words, enshrined in the Word of God forever, are a work of gold. How many people have been converted by his words through the centuries? How many consoled? I count myself among them. St. Dismas pray for me!

May God’s grace, through which you are saved by faith, spare you the suffering that he bore.

If those works don’t befit repentance, what does?

I will wait to see how you will dispense of the blasphemer.

This is much like the faith alone discussion I have with the Protestants.

They say, Faith alone saves you.

I respond, Scripture says, “faith without works is dead”.

They say, Of course! Faith without works is a dead faith. But faith alone saves you.

That makes no sense. If faith must be accompanied by works, then faith is not alone.

Well, you will get no arguement from me on these points.

In the same way, if we must work to be saved because grace is tied to our works, then our salvation is based on our works. It is God's will that this is so.

No.

**2010 ***Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, *no one can merit the initial grace** of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, ***we can then merit*** for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. *Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.*

Exactly what the Church teaches and what I’m saying.

No. What you are saying does not sound like what the Church is saying. The Church says that we are saved by grace, through faith, and that prayer and good works "attend’ and access this grace.

It is based on that performance. Because if we don't perform, we have rejected that grace.

I agree that lack of performance indicates that we have rejected the grace. However, that does not change the basis. We are saved by grace.

It is from the Catechism and the Scriptures and the Early Fathers and the Council of Trent that I’ve learned what I’ve posted.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Well, keep studying.

 

[De_Maria]

Indeed, Jesus make it clear that Christians must produce fruit.

“I am the vine, you are the branches. A branch that does not produce fruit will be cut off, dry up, and be cast into the fire.”

Of course we must not boast about our fruit, because:

“Without me you can do nothing.”

The vine enables the branch to bear fruit, the branch can’t do it on its own. But, the branch MUST bear fruit, it is not an option.

I wonder why some Catholic Apologists seem to be embarrassed by that fact?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

No, he suffered next to him. It is not the same thing… The thief on the other side did the same.

Except for one thing:
Hebrews 11 6 But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.

But this is a very apt comparison. Thanks for bringing it up.

What did the other criminal do? Quite a bit. But it was all against Jesus. He ridiculed Jesus from the Cross! He is in essence, the epitome of evil. He was already in hell on the Cross! By rejecting Jesus, he rejected salvation.

And note this, if works are important enough to condemn you to hell then they must be important enough to get you in. And that is what Scripture says:

*Romans 2 6 Who will render to every man according to his works. **7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: **8 But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. **9 Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. *10 But glory, and honour, and peace to every one that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Seems crystal clear to me.

Really? Then how come the Church does not venerate the thief on the other side?

Because we don’t venerate unrepentant sinners who have willfully hardened their hearts against God.

Ah! A profession of faith! One thing he did that the other thief did not do.

True. But faith itself is work. As I’ve mentioned to the dismay of many Protestants, they have a theology of works. Because faith is a work as Jesus Himself taught:
John 6 29 Jesus answered, and said to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent.

May God’s grace, through which you are saved by faith, spare you the suffering that he bore.

God’s will be done my brother! If God wills that I suffer I know that he’ll also give me the fortitude to bear it.

2 Timothy 2 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us.

Romans 8 17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

Although I prefer the Little Flower’s method myself.
thelittleflower-lincoln.com/T1.html
tfp.org/TFPForum/reflections_of_pco/suffering_and_the_little_way.htm

No. What you are saying does not sound like what the Church is saying. The Church says that we are saved by grace, through faith, and that prayer and good works "attend’ and access this grace.

And if we don’t access this grace through faith, prayer and good works?

I agree that lack of performance indicates that we have rejected the grace. However, that does not change the basis. We are saved by grace.

There is more than one basis for our salvation. Its all God’s grace, but:

We are saved by grace through the Sacrifice of Our Lord.
We are saved by grace through faith in our Lord.
We are saved by grace through works in obedience to our Lord.
We are saved by grace through the Baptism in which we die with Christ and arise to new life.
We are saved by grace through the Holy Eucharist which is the source and summit of our faith.

We are both/and. Not either/or. We are not Protestants that we must shackle the grace of God to only certain works and not others.

Philippians 2 13 For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.

Well, keep studying.

Thanks, you too. You’ve been a great help.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Please show me where the Church and the bible say that “salvation is by works” or that “salvation is based on works.”

You want that exact wording? I can’t provide it. But you remind me of Protestants seeking Purgatory in the Bible.

THERE IS NO DENYING that the Church teaches in her doctrines and in the Bible that BY THE GRACE OF GOD, salvation is based on our works.

But you want to deny it because the wording isn’t exact?

You obviously understand salvation and I get your point, but your terminology is problematic when you use these phrases. Moreover, that phraseology is not found in the the canons of Trent, the CCC, or the bible.

My point rests on the importance of terminology as opposed to your understanding.

And yours as well. Since you are obviously saying that you agree with my understanding. Or what does this mean:
*You obviously understand salvation and I get your point,
*
So, what you are doing is juxtaposing a certain terminology against you and I’s understanding in this matter. In fact, against every Catholics understanding in this matter.

By the grace of God our salvation is based on our works.

It is by God’s will, by God’s grace, God’s love, by our response of love, of faith, of hope, AND by our works.

It is an error to say that because our salvation is by the grace of God, it is not also by our works.

AM I CONTRADICTING SCRIPTURE? No.

Romans 11 6 And if by grace, it is not now by works: otherwise grace is no more grace.

The Douay Rheims commentary should explain my stance:

*6 “It is not now by works”… If salvation were to come by works, done by nature, without faith and grace, salvation would not be a grace or favour, but a debt; but such dead works are indeed of no value in the sight of God towards salvation.*It is not the same with regard to works done with, and by, God’s grace; for to such works as these, he has promised eternal salvation.
drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=11&l=6&f=s#x

As we know, St. Paul was teaching that we are not saved by works ALONE. But that doesn’t mean that he was teaching GRACE ALONE. And that is the Protestant error which so many Catholic Apologists are making in denying the efficacy of works. They have gone from one extreme to the other.

Grace alone is the heresy of Monergism.

So, my question to you is, since when did the Church reject truth because it didn’t sound good?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[guanophore]

Except for one thing:

Hebrews 11 6 But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.

But this is a very apt comparison. Thanks for bringing it up.

What did the other criminal do? Quite a bit. But it was all against Jesus. He ridiculed Jesus from the Cross! He is in essence, the epitome of evil. He was already in hell on the Cross! By rejecting Jesus, he rejected salvation.

And note this, if works are important enough to condemn you to hell then they must be important enough to get you in. And that is what Scripture says:

*Romans 2 6 Who will render to every man according to his works. *7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: *8 But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. *9 Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. 10 But glory, and honour, and peace to every one that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Seems crystal clear to me.

Things are not always what they seem.

As you have well noted in the comparison of the thieves above, it was faith that was the difference. The works (deeds. actions, fruit) flowed out of the heart, either full of blasphemy, or faith. It is the state of the heart that matters, and this state is based entirely upon grace.

You are making an inaccurate conclusion here:

“… if works are important enough to condemn you to hell then they must be important enough to get you in.”

Where, the Apostolic Teaching says the opposite:

Titus 3:5-8
“…he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.”

We are not saved by our deeds, however righteous they are. We are saved by grace, through faith.

True. But faith itself is work. As I’ve mentioned to the dismay of many Protestants, they have a theology of works. Because faith is a work as Jesus Himself taught:
John 6 29 Jesus answered, and said to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent.

I agree. yet, it is still not the faith that saves us. Faith is the mechanism through which we access the grace that saves. Both faith and works are tied to salvation, yes, but it is based upon God’s grace and mercy, and nothing else.

And if we don’t access this grace through faith, prayer and good works?

Well, God can save whoever He wants, however He wants. He will save some as through fire. However, the normative means that He has given us by which we access saving grace is faith and good works.

There is more than one basis for our salvation. Its all God’s grace, but:

No. No “but”.

We are saved by grace through the Sacrifice of Our Lord.
We are saved by grace through faith in our Lord.
We are saved by grace through works in obedience to our Lord.
We are saved by grace through the Baptism in which we die with Christ and arise to new life.
We are saved by grace through the Holy Eucharist which is the source and summit of our faith.

“through” are means whereby we access His saving grace, not the basis. Grace is the basis.

We are both/and. Not either/or. We are not Protestants that we must shackle the grace of God to only certain works and not others.

Indeed!

Rom 9:14-18
" For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So it depends not upon man’s will or exertion, but upon God’s mercy. 17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills."

Yet the basis is His mercy, His grace, and not our will or exertion.

Philippians 2 13 For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.

Thanks, you too. You’ve been a great help.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Yes, He works in us, and we are to work with HIm, but the basis is grace - His mercy.

 

[guanophore]

THERE IS NO DENYING that the Church teaches in her doctrines and in the Bible that BY THE GRACE OF GOD, salvation is based on our works.

This is not accurate. Salvation is based on grace.

Eph 2:8-10
“**For by grace you have been saved **through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

We are to walk in the good works because we are His workmanship. We become His workmanship by grace, through faith. The good works are our appropriate response to being in a state of grace. They emanate from the grace in which we stand, they do not bring us into grace.
But you want to deny it because the wording isn’t exact?

So, what you are doing is juxtaposing a certain terminology against you and I’s understanding in this matter. In fact, against every Catholics understanding in this matter.

By the grace of God our salvation is based on our works.

It is by God’s will, by God’s grace, God’s love, by our response of love, of faith, of hope, AND by our works.

It is an error to say that because our salvation is by the grace of God, it is not also by our works.

Have you read about the heresy of Pelagius?

AM I CONTRADICTING SCRIPTURE?

Yes.

Romans 11 6 And if by grace, it is not now by works: otherwise grace is no more grace.

The Douay Rheims commentary should explain my stance:

*6 “It is not now by works”… If salvation were to come by works, done by nature, without faith and grace, salvation would not be a grace or favour, but a debt; but such dead works are indeed of no value in the sight of God towards salvation.*It is not the same with regard to works done with, and by, God’s grace; for to such works as these, he has promised eternal salvation.
drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=11&l=6&f=s#x

Yes, eternal salvation based on grace. The works are the fruit of the graced state. We enter eternal life because of the graced state, not because of our works.

As we know, St. Paul was teaching that we are not saved by works ALONE. But that doesn’t mean that he was teaching GRACE ALONE. And that is the Protestant error which so many Catholic Apologists are making in denying the efficacy of works. They have gone from one extreme to the other.

I do not deny the efficacy of works at all, just the notion that they are the basis.

So, my question to you is, since when did the Church reject truth because it didn’t sound good?

Sincerely,

De Maria

The better question is, when did you?

 

[De_Maria]

This is not accurate. Salvation is based on grace.

All is grace. Jesus being born is grace. Jesus dying on the Cross for our sins is grace. Our being able to work for our salvation is grace. Baptism is grace. Eucharist is grace.

And our salvation is based on each of these. Not one of them may be skipped.
1 Peter 3
21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also:

Our salvation is based on the fact that Jesus died for us.
Our salvation is based on our baptism.
Our salvation is based on our eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:8-10
"**For by grace you have been saved **through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God

That is why the Apostle says this. By grace we may have faith. Faith is itself a work. It is the gift of God that we may have faith unto salvation. That is why our salvation is also based on our faith.

• 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Why did God create us? To walk in the works which He has prepared for us. If we don’t walk in these works, will be saved? Then what is the basis of our not being saved if we don’t?

We are to walk in the good works because we are His workmanship. We become His workmanship by grace, through faith. The good works are our appropriate response to being in a state of grace. They emanate from the grace in which we stand, they do not bring us into grace. But you want to deny it because the wording isn’t exact?

Did I deny it? Where?

Have you read about the heresy of Pelagius?

Yeah. He denied grace. But I don’t. Read my statement.

Yes.

Romans 11 6 And if by grace, it is not now by works: otherwise grace is no more grace.

The Douay Rheims commentary should explain my stance:

*6 “It is not now by works”… If salvation were to come by works, done by nature, without faith and grace, salvation would not be a grace or favour, but a debt; but such dead works are indeed of no value in the sight of God towards salvation.*It is not the same with regard to works done with, and by, God’s grace; for to such works as these, he has promised eternal salvation.
drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=11&l=6&f=s#x

Yes, eternal salvation based on grace. The works are the fruit of the graced state. We enter eternal life because of the graced state, not because of our works.

Good, you agree with the Douay Commentary. Now lets compare that to my statement:

DOUAY:
It is not the same with regard to works done with, and by, God’s grace; for to such works as these, he has promised eternal salvation.

MY STATEMENT:
By the grace of God our salvation is based on our works.

What’s the difference?

I do not deny the efficacy of works at all, just the notion that they are the basis.

If I say, on what “basis” does God decide whether we are condemned or glorified? What would be your honest answer?

The better question is, when did you?

Ha ha

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Things are not always what they seem.

As you have well noted in the comparison of the thieves above, it was faith that was the difference. The works (deeds. actions, fruit) flowed out of the heart, either full of blasphemy, or faith. It is the state of the heart that matters, and this state is based entirely upon grace.

You are making an inaccurate conclusion here:

I don’t really see how what you’ve said is refutation. It seems to agree with me. But you conclude as though it were a refutation?

However, if the deeds had not flowed out of each heart, there would have been different endings for each.

Where, the Apostolic Teaching says the opposite:

Titus 3:5-8
“…he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.”

We are not saved by our deeds, however righteous they are. We are saved by grace, through faith.

The Douay puts it this way and I believe it is much clearer here that it is by Baptism, which is a work.

5 Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, **by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost; **

If we compare to what Jesus said:
John 3 5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Thats a work my friend.

I agree. yet, it is still not the faith that saves us. Faith is the mechanism through which we access the grace that saves. Both faith and works are tied to salvation, yes, but it is based upon God’s grace and mercy, and nothing else.

There is more than one basis all of which are tied to grace because ALL IS GRACE. Even our being is grace.

Well, God can save whoever He wants, however He wants. He will save some as through fire. However, the normative means that He has given us by which we access saving grace is faith and good works.

You’re getting warmer. ’ We access’ very good.

No. No “but”.

“through” are means whereby we access His saving grace, not the basis. Grace is the basis.

All is grace. Grace is the basis of everything. Including your existence. Within the framework of grace, there are elements on which God bases His decisions. And one of those is our cooperation with His Grace. One of those is our works.

Indeed!

Rom 9:14-18
" For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So it depends not upon man’s will or exertion, but upon God’s mercy. 17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills."

Yet the basis is His mercy, His grace, and not our will or exertion.

Its both/and. It is both His mercy and grace and our will and exertion.

Or how do you read the verse you posted? Do you think it means that God just sits back and throws darts with His eyes closed saying, “Ok, the next guy I hit is saved whether he wants to or not.”

Of course not! God has told us His formula. We must cooperate with His Grace and perform good works.

Yes, He works in us, and we are to work with HIm, but the basis is grace - His mercy.

The basies are both His Grace and our works. That is plain in Catholic teaching and in Her Scriptures.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[guanophore]

All is grace. Jesus being born is grace. Jesus dying on the Cross for our sins is grace. Our being able to work for our salvation is grace. Baptism is grace. Eucharist is grace.

We don’t work “for” our salvation or “on” it. We work it “out”. Saving grace is already present within us.

And our salvation is based on each of these. Not one of them may be skipped.
1 Peter 3
21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also:

Our salvation is based on the fact that Jesus died for us.
Our salvation is based on our baptism.
Our salvation is based on our eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Christ.

That is why the Apostle says this. By grace we may have faith. Faith is itself a work. It is the gift of God that we may have faith unto salvation. That is why our salvation is also based on our faith.

Faith is the means by which we access the grace upon which salvation is based. Salvation does not depend upon our faith, or our works. the fact that these things are tied to it does not change the basis.

Why did God create us? To walk in the works which He has prepared for us. If we don’t walk in these works, will be saved? Then what is the basis of our not being saved if we don’t?

Jesus was clear that those who come at the last minute, and do the least, get the same wage as those who have worked all day.

Now lets compare that to my statement:

DOUAY:
It is not the same with regard to works done with, and by, God’s grace; for to such works as these, he has promised eternal salvation.

MY STATEMENT:
By the grace of God our salvation is based on our works.

What’s the difference?

The Apostle is speaking of good works that emanate from a person in a state of grace. These indeed have merit. However, it is the grace that is the basis of salvation, not the works, however, righteous.

If I say, on what “basis” does God decide whether we are condemned or glorified? What would be your honest answer?

Whether one is in a state of grace. A person who is a horrible sinner, but baptized on his deathbed, will inherit the same glorification as one who has labored all his life in doing good works.

However, if the deeds had not flowed out of each heart, there would have been different endings for each.

We can’t conclude this, because only God can see the heart. If the thief had a conviction of heart that never passed his lips, then fell into a coma, Jesus could still take him to paradise.

The Douay puts it this way and I believe it is much clearer here that it is by Baptism, which is a work.

5 Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, **by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost; **

If we compare to what Jesus said:
John 3 5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Thats a work my friend.

These are ways in which we participate in the saving grace of God. However, grace is the basis of our salvation, not the works. We cannot achieve what God has given to us as a free gift.

There is more than one basis all of which are tied to grace because ALL IS GRACE. Even our being is grace.

Tied, yes. The Source, no.

All is grace. Grace is the basis of everything. Including your existence. Within the framework of grace, there are elements on which God bases His decisions. And one of those is our cooperation with His Grace. One of those is our works.

I agree. However, our cooperation is not the basis. Only grace is the basis.

Its both/and. It is both His mercy and grace and our will and exertion.

Or how do you read the verse you posted? Do you think it means that God just sits back and throws darts with His eyes closed saying, “Ok, the next guy I hit is saved whether he wants to or not.”

No.

Of course not! God has told us His formula. We must cooperate with His Grace and perform good works.

I agree, but that does not change the basis of salvation.

The basies are both His Grace and our works. That is plain in Catholic teaching and in Her Scriptures.

No.

When the scripture states 'by grace, through faith" it means that grace is the basis, and faith is the means by which we access that grace. God, by His grace, could save one who does not believe, if He wanted. His salvation is not dependent upon us, but HImself.