Salvation by works? Amen!

[ernie67]

Hi,
I was listening to Fr Mitch Pacwa on EWTN and he was talking about this topic of salvation by grace and salvation by works.
The way he put it was to say that works and grace work like a scissor. The two blades work together to cut so one does not work without the other.
So Fr Pacwa mentioned that it was like arguing about whether the right side of the scissor is more important than the left side of the scissor.
This analogy of the scissors helps me to explain our catholic teaching to protestant brothers and sisters.

Ernie

 

[guanophore]

Hi,
I was listening to Fr Mitch Pacwa on EWTN and he was talking about this topic of salvation by grace and salvation by works.
The way he put it was to say that works and grace work like a scissor. The two blades work together to cut so one does not work without the other.
So Fr Pacwa mentioned that it was like arguing about whether the right side of the scissor is more important than the left side of the scissor.
This analogy of the scissors helps me to explain our catholic teaching to protestant brothers and sisters.

Ernie

With much less confusion than saying salvation is “based” on works. This is misleading because the Scriptures are so clear in some areas to the contrary. Most Protestants have never been taught the proper role of works in salvation, and are taught that al lof them are “filthy rags”.

 

[ernie67]

Hi,
If you were being swept away in a raging river and I wished to save you so I stretched out my hand to you but you did not want to be saved and do not do the work of moving your hand to grasp mine what would happen to you?
God can have all the grace in the world but if I do not repent and turn (WORK) to him and take his hand (GRACE) he can do nothing. I have free will and can grasp his hand or push it away.
That is how the Lord created us so we all must Repent and turn to him in order to be saved. We must turn, we must act, we must do and then God will be able to save us.
Again salvation is like a scissor it will not work if we do not turn(work) to him and take is hand (grace).

Ernie

 

[guanophore]

Hi,
If you were being swept away in a raging river and I wished to save you so I stretched out my hand to you but you did not want to be saved and do not do the work of moving your hand to grasp mine what would happen to you?
God can have all the grace in the world but if I do not repent and turn (WORK) to him and take his hand (GRACE) he can do nothing. I have free will and can grasp his hand or push it away.
That is how the Lord created us so we all must Repent and turn to him in order to be saved. We must turn, we must act, we must do and then God will be able to save us.
Again salvation is like a scissor it will not work if we do not turn(work) to him and take is hand (grace).

Ernie

I agree. But the hinge upon which the scissors turn is grace.

 

[onenow1]

Works: We work out what GOD works in our hearts. Works are the fruit of faith. “We work out our salvation with fear and trembling.” Whenever St. Paul said works are not needed, he was referring to the old Mosaic Law or works of darkness. He did not mean the good works rendered by the Law of Grace (Trent, session 6, chapter 4) of the New Covenant…

In Matt 25:31-46 are many examples of doing good works, proclaimed by Jesus Christ. There is the separation of the sheep from the goats which relate to, the feeding of the hungry, clothing of the naked, visiting the sick and those imprisoned, and more. Notice that both the sheep and the goats believed, but only the sheep did good works.

In verse 46, Jesus cautioned as to what will be the reward of those who do not do these things, and of those who do, “And these will go into everlasting punishment, but the just into everlasting life.”

The hinge on the scissors.

Peace, OneNow1

 

[guanophore]

Works: We work out what GOD works in our hearts. Works are the fruit of faith. “We work out our salvation with fear and trembling.” Whenever St. Paul said works are not needed, he was referring to the old Mosaic Law or works of darkness. He did not mean the good works rendered by the Law of Grace (Trent, session 6, chapter 4) of the New Covenant…

In Matt 25:31-46 are many examples of doing good works, proclaimed by Jesus Christ. There is the separation of the sheep from the goats which relate to, the feeding of the hungry, clothing of the naked, visiting the sick and those imprisoned, and more. Notice that both the sheep and the goats believed, but only the sheep did good works.

In verse 46, Jesus cautioned as to what will be the reward of those who do not do these things, and of those who do, “And these will go into everlasting punishment, but the just into everlasting life.”

The hinge on the scissors.

Peace, OneNow1

Indeed, but realize that they were sheep and goats first. The sheep did good works BECAUSE they were sheep, and those who did not BECAUSE they were goats. The good works flow from our identity in Christ, and this is established on the basis of grace.

 

[De_Maria]

We don’t work “for” our salvation or “on” it.

You don’t? I do.

Our Father is working for our salvation and so is the Son:
John 5
17 But Jesus answered them: My Father worketh until now; and I work.

And they are our example:
Matthew 5
48 Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.

1 Corinthians 4 16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ.

We work it “out”. Saving grace is already present within us.

It doesn’t matter if we “work it out” or “work it in”, we must still work for our salvation. That is God’s will.

Faith is the means by which we access the grace upon which salvation is based.

Did I say it wasn’t? But what did St. James say?
James 2 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without works; and I will show thee, by works, my faith.

Therefore, faith is inseparable of works.

And justification is the beginning of salvation and we must work to be justified:
James 2 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

Salvation does not depend upon our faith, or our works. the fact that these things are tied to it does not change the basis.

As I have proven, there is more than one basis. Upon what basis does God decide whether we are saved or not? Upon our good deeds.

Matthew 16 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works.

Jesus was clear that those who come at the last minute, and do the least, get the same wage as those who have worked all day.

But they worked.

What happens to those who do not work?

Matthew 3 *8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of penance.
**9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham for our father. For I tell you that God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham. **10 For now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that doth not yield good fruit, shall be cut down, and cast into the fire. *

The Apostle is speaking of good works that emanate from a person in a state of grace. These indeed have merit. However, it is the grace that is the basis of salvation, not the works, however, righteous.

It is both.

This easy to describe.

If the person who is full of grace produces no fruit, what will become of him as shown above? He will be cut down and cast into the fire.

So although the Baptized person has received the grace to work, but didn’t, his grace is wasted:
1 Corinthians 15 10 But by the grace of God, I am what I am; and his grace in me hath not been void, but I have laboured more abundantly than all they: yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

Whether one is in a state of grace. A person who is a horrible sinner, but baptized on his deathbed, will inherit the same glorification as one who has labored all his life in doing good works.

Nope. That is a horrible interpretation of the Scripture. He will enter heaven, but not in the same way:
John 14 2 In my Father’s house there are many mansions. If not, I would have told you: because I go to prepare a place for you.

And a deathbed baptism is no guarantee of heaven:
Matthew 7 21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Only God reads hearts. The deathbed confession will have to be PERFECT contrition and not just a last ditch effort to save one’s soul after a lifetime of sin.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

We can’t conclude this, because only God can see the heart. If the thief had a conviction of heart that never passed his lips, then fell into a coma, Jesus could still take him to paradise.

I have to admit that this is true. But is this the rule or the exception? What is the ordinary means of salvation? What basis, what criteria has God established for our salvation?

These are ways in which we participate in the saving grace of God. However, grace is the basis of our salvation, not the works. We cannot achieve what God has given to us as a free gift.

God has given us THE PRIVELEGE to work for our salvation. If we don’t use accept that gift and refuse to work for our salvation, we will perish in our sins.

Tied, yes. The Source, no.

A basis, yes.

I agree. However, our cooperation is not the basis. Only grace is the basis.

By God’s grace, we may work for our salvation. I for one, do not intend to waste that gift, that privelege. And I for one, consider salvation good enough to work for.

No.

Good.

I agree, but that does not change the basis of salvation.

The basis has always been as God established it. It is only YOUR and many other Catholic apologists who have inherited some sort of abhorrence for works from Protestants which has re intepreted Catholic doctrine in a foreign manner. You and they are wrong.

One of the basis which God established for our salvation is our response to His Grace. It is our works.

No.

When the scripture states 'by grace, through faith" it means that grace is the basis, and faith is the means by which we access that grace. God, by His grace, could save one who does not believe, if He wanted. His salvation is not dependent upon us, but HImself.

Thats true. But that is the extraordinary means of salvation which God may employ at His leisure. However, for us God has revealed an ordinary means. That ordinary means is based upon our works in response to His Grace.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Hi,
I was listening to Fr Mitch Pacwa on EWTN and he was talking about this topic of salvation by grace and salvation by works.
The way he put it was to say that works and grace work like a scissor. The two blades work together to cut so one does not work without the other.
So Fr Pacwa mentioned that it was like arguing about whether the right side of the scissor is more important than the left side of the scissor.
This analogy of the scissors helps me to explain our catholic teaching to protestant brothers and sisters.

Ernie

AMEN BROTHER!!!

That is exactly what I’m trying to get through to these folks. For some reason, modern Catholic apologists want to say that works have nothing to do with salvation. But obviously, they do!

Great analogy, I’ll be using it myself.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

I agree. It is just that our works flow from our state, either being saved by grace, or under the wrath of God for disbelief. A good tree produces good fruit. This happens because of the nature of the tree.

You’re looking at the tree after the fact. We know that a tree is good because we see the good fruit. But another tree, receiving the same grace, might not produce fruit. That is why the Scripture says, “produce good fruit or you will be chopped down and tossed in the fire.”

The good works are reflection that we are in a state of grace.

True.

We don’t earn the state of grace through our works.

Sure we do.

James 2 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

It is by God’s grace that we do so.

God works in us to accomplish His will BECAUSE we are saved by grace through faith, not on account of it.

Yes, actually, on account of it:
Hebrews 11
6 But without faith it is impossible to please God.

See, here’s where you are getting mixed up. Neither our faith or our works have the intrinsic value to purchase eternal union with God. They simply don’t. In that respect, the Protestants are correct.

HOWEVER, God has made it so. It is HIS WILL that we work for our salvation. If we don’t, we aren’t saved. PERIOD.

God, by His Grace, has made our works the basis of our salvation. It doesn’t matter to Him that our works are filthy rags. Its like when our children bring us ugly weeds from the backyard. Do we toss them out and say yuck!!!? Or do we praise them for the beautiful flower they presented us from the bottom of their little heart?

The same with us. God has made it a rule, we demonstrate our faith and our justified and eventually saved by our works.

BECAUSE GOD SAID SO.

What you think doesn’t matter. It is what God thinks that matters.

No, they both start out as sons. One can lose one’s heavenly reward by disobedience,

In other words, the basis for our salvation is obedience.

Lets back up. What is the basis of our justification?

1. either faith
2. or works
3. or both.

And faith is already a work by itself. Therefore, the basis of our justification is works and the basis of our remaining justified unto salvation is works.

but one cannot earn it by doing good works.

What about those which don’t start out as sons?

Branches, by definition, already belong to the vine. We are grafted into that vine by grace, not by works.

Sure, we’re grafted by grace after we do what?

I agree, but we are unable to love Him at all until we are saved by grace through faith.

No, no, no! You are making the same mistake as the Protestants. What comes first? Justification or salvation?

First we are justified. If we continue in our justification until the end then we are saved.

This is why we are saved by grace through faith. Our Faith is represented very well by a marriage. What is it that we who are faithful husbands do everyday. We must be faithful. We must prove our love by our faith.

We must work to earn money to support the household. We must come home every night to our spouse.

If we start carrousing every night with a different woman, we won’t be married for long to this one. God expects no less.

Without faith, it is impossible to please Him, as you have correctly pointed out.

And faith is a work. As I have also pointed out.

Here the Apostle is speaking of the foundation of our Church, which is comprised of the saved.

You missed the point. Just as there is more than one foundation for the Church, there is more than one basis for our salvation.

No.

Yeah.

Yes.

Great!

I agree. The basis for that response is grace.

But the basis of God’s judgement is our response to that grace.

Based on grace, not of works.

Based on both. As Ernie mentioned, one without the other won’t work. No pun intended.

No.

No, the passage on the judgement is talking about those who are already saved, or already condemned. Those that are in a state of grace will produce good works which befit repentance. Those who are in a state of rebellion against God will produce selfishness because that is human nature. Reward is based on works.

That happens in Purgatory. Those in Purgatory are already saved.

Salvation is based on grace.

And works.

Yes.

No. the fact that works are tied does not make them a basis. There is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved but Christ.

Unless Christ names another. And Christ has willed that we save each other:
James 5* 20* He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.

Are you denying that as well?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Ignatius]

Illustration:

Lets say I’m in the desert, starving and dying of thirst and I come upon this mansion. The owner is lounging inside his gate. I walk up and ask, “Sir, may I come in and get something to eat and drink?” Now the man doesn’t have to let me in at all. Its his house and if he considers my request at all, that is a gift in itself. But he says, “Bring me two grains of sand and I’ll gladly let you in. But if you don’t bring me two grains of sand, I won’t let you in.”

The owner has tied my entering his house to my response. He is basing his “gift” on my action. If I believe him, if I show faith in him and bring what he wants, I’m in. If I don’t believe him, I won’t obey and I’ll stand outside and die.

Actually, I believe that a more accurate analogy would be as follows.
Say you are dying of a deadly disease (in reality we are are all subject to the disease of sin which brings certain death). The doctor offers us a cure, free of charge, which involves going through certain therapy.
Now it is clear that doing this therapy isn’t “earning” the cure, it is simply the necessary course to be cured.

Grace and peace.

Your servant in Christ.

 

[guanophore]

I have to admit that this is true. But is this the rule or the exception? What is the ordinary means of salvation? What basis, what criteria has God established for our salvation?

We are saved by grace, through faith, and not of works, lest any man should boast.

God has given us THE PRIVELEGE to work for our salvation. If we don’t use accept that gift and refuse to work for our salvation, we will perish in our sins.

No.

God has given us the privilege to work out the grace that is working in us. We are already saved by His grace, and He has given us the duty to persevere in that state of grace until the last day, because if we don’t we will perish in our sins.

A basis, yes.

The only basis. Other things are inseparably tied to it.

By God’s grace, we may work for our salvation. I for one, do not intend to waste that gift, that privelege. And I for one, consider salvation good enough to work for.

Then you have not understood the gift you were given at baptism.

The basis has always been as God established it. It is only YOUR and many other Catholic apologists who have inherited some sort of abhorrence for works from Protestants which has re intepreted Catholic doctrine in a foreign manner. You and they are wrong.

I think you will find that I have no abhorrence for works, and if you were to read my debates with the “faith alone” crowd, this will be obvious.

One of the basis which God established for our salvation is our response to His Grace. It is our works.

No. The only basis is grace. Our cooperation with grace, inseparably joined with it, is not the basis. Only God can save us.

But that is the extraordinary means of salvation which God may employ at His leisure. However, for us God has revealed an ordinary means. That ordinary means is based upon our works in response to His Grace.

False. The ordinary means is based on the sacrificial death of the Lamb of God, slain for our sins.

 

[De_Maria]

We are saved by grace, through faith, and not of works, lest any man should boast.

Repetitive. I’ve addressed this before.

No.

God has given us the privilege to work out the grace that is working in us. We are already saved by His grace, and He has given us the duty to persevere in that state of grace until the last day, because if we don’t we will perish in our sins.

I don’t know why you think that refutes my argument?
God has given us the privilege to work out the grace that is working in us.

Whether we work out or in it is still work. And duty is another word for work. And perseverence is work. Sooo?

The only basis. Other things are inseparably tied to it.

Inseparably! Exactly.

Then you have not understood the gift you were given at baptism.

Yes. The privelege to work for my salvation.

I think you will find that I have no abhorrence for works, and if you were to read my debates with the “faith alone” crowd, this will be obvious.

And your arguments will be much more efficacious when you finally admit that we do work for our salvation.

Grace alone Catholics sound just as illogical as the faith alone crowd when they say that salvation is not by works.

The faith alone crowd disavows works and says its only faith accompanied by works which saves. ???

The grace alone Catholic disavows works and says salvation is only by grace accompanied by faith (a work) which saves.

Of course, then they argue that faith alone is dead. It must be accompanied by works. Which are unnecessary???

Sorry, but that is just goofy.

In both cases you are professing and denying the same thing at the same time and two mutually exclusive statements can’t be true at the same time.

And besides, grace alone is monergism. A heresy.

No. The only basis is grace. Our cooperation with grace, inseparably joined with it, is not the basis. Only God can save us.

Sure, but God has decided not to save those who won’t work. So what are you going to do? Ignore Him?

False. The ordinary means is based on the sacrificial death of the Lamb of God, slain for our sins.

As well as on our cooperation with graces flowing from that sacrifice.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Actually, I believe that a more accurate analogy would be as follows.
Say you are dying of a deadly disease (in reality we are are all subject to the disease of sin which brings certain death). The doctor offers us a cure, free of charge, which involves going through certain therapy.
Now it is clear that doing this therapy isn’t “earning” the cure, it is simply the necessary course to be cured.

Grace and peace.

Your servant in Christ.

As I understand the word therapy, you don’t mean like surgery but like exercise. Why then wouldn’t that be earning the cure?

You worked for it, didn’t you?

So, I think it is exactly as good as my analogy. You are given the privelege to work for your cure.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Ignatius]

As I understand the word therapy, you don’t mean like surgery but like exercise. Why then wouldn’t that be earning the cure?

You worked for it, didn’t you?

Not really. Let’s use a slightly different analogy a little more specific.

Say you are dying of cancer, as before we are are all subject to the disease of sin which brings certain death. The doctor offers us a cure which involves going through chemo-therapy. He offers this free of charge.

Now this treatment is a free gift which cures the cancer. We didn’t deserve it nor did we earn it.

May the grace and peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ descend upon you and remain with you for ever.

Your servant in Christ.

 

[De_Maria]

Not really. Let’s use a slightly different analogy a little more specific.

Say you are dying of cancer, as before we are are all subject to the disease of sin which brings certain death. The doctor offers us a cure which involves going through chemo-therapy. He offers this free of charge.

Now this treatment is a free gift which cures the cancer. We didn’t deserve it nor did we earn it.

May the grace and peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ descend upon you and remain with you for ever.

Your servant in Christ.

Having worked in a cancer hospital and having known, personally, a few cancer victims, I believe your conclusion is mistaken.

Those who suffer through chemo therapy and are cured, have definitely worked for their cure.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[guanophore]

Actually, I believe that a more accurate analogy would be as follows.
Say you are dying of a deadly disease (in reality we are are all subject to the disease of sin which brings certain death). The doctor offers us a cure, free of charge, which involves going through certain therapy.
Now it is clear that doing this therapy isn’t “earning” the cure, it is simply the necessary course to be cured.

Grace and peace.

Your servant in Christ.

I think the use of the words “earn”, “merit”, and “work on” in this context are confusing to our separated brethren. On cannot “earn” a cure, especially if one has to seek it from someone else outside themselves, and has not, within himself, the ability to access it.

This is our state in sin. We cannot bridge the gap that has been created between ourselves and God as a result of sin. He has bridged it, and as a result, we can walk across. But the basis of our being able to come to Him is His bridge. We have not the material or ability to build it.

 

[guanophore]

Repetitive. I’ve addressed this before.

Indeed. You have repeatedly tried to purport that it doesn;t really mean what it says.

I don’t know why you think that refutes my argument?
God has given us the privilege to work out the grace that is working in us.

Whether we work out or in it is still work. And duty is another word for work. And perseverence is work. Sooo?

Work, although connected, is not the basis.

Inseparably! Exactly.

But not the basis. Jesus’ blood is the basis:

Rom 5:9-11
“Much more surely then, now that we have been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more surely, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life. 11 But more than that, we even boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

Yes. The privelege to work for my salvation.

The privilege to participate is based in grace:

Rom 4:3-6
“For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to one who works, wages are not reckoned as a gift but as something due. 5 But to one who without works trusts him who justifies the ungodly, such faith is reckoned as righteousness. 6 So also David speaks of the blessedness of those to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works…”

We can participate because of the righteous state in which we are, which we have by grace, apart from works.

And your arguments will be much more efficacious when you finally admit that we do work for our salvation.

I will never go back to the misunderstanding of salvation I had as a youth. As a cradle Catholic, I did not understand grace, and was poorly catechized in this area, as most Catholics are still.

If one works for salvation, then it is considered a wage, and not a gift.

Rom 4:2-5
"For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to one who works, wages are not reckoned as a gift but as something due. 5 But to one who without works trusts him who justifies the ungodly, such faith is reckoned as righteousness.

Salvation is owed to no one, and it is not our “due” before the Almighty. It is a free gift.

Grace alone Catholics sound just as illogical as the faith alone crowd when they say that salvation is not by works.
De Maria;4202025:

The faith alone crowd disavows works and says its only faith accompanied by works which saves. ??? The grace alone Catholic disavows works and says salvation is only by grace accompanied by faith (a work) which saves.

Of course, then they argue that faith alone is dead. It must be accompanied by works. Which are unnecessary???

Sorry, but that is just goofy.

I agree.

In both cases you are professing and denying the same thing at the same time and two mutually exclusive statements can't be true at the same time.

And besides, grace alone is monergism. A heresy.

Glad you are studying the heresies.

Sure, but God has decided not to save those who won’t work. So what are you going to do? Ignore Him?

This is not up to you to say. God saves those He wishes. Near me, there is a hospital for disabled children. They are the recipients of other people’s good deeds. None of them can work. I pray for them every day. I do not believe that God has decided not to save them, just because they cannot do good works. In answer to your question, I do not ignore the gift of God’s grace.
I will accept the free gift, and not deceive myself into thinking that I have earned or merited it.

As well as on our cooperation with graces flowing from that sacrifice.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Yes, but our cooperation with the graces that flow from the blood sacrifice are not the basis of salvation. Only the blood. There is no other name under heaven by which we can be saved, including our own.

 

[guanophore]

Having worked in a cancer hospital and having known, personally, a few cancer victims, I believe your conclusion is mistaken.

Those who suffer through chemo therapy and are cured, have definitely worked for their cure.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Yes, but the work is not the basis of the cure.

 

[De_Maria]

Yes, but the work is not the basis of the cure.

Ask any doctor what happens if the patient gives up?