Salvation by works? Amen!

[guanophore]

Ask any doctor what happens if the patient gives up?

It is much more difficult to be saved. Not impossible, but very difficult. I work daily with a lot of patients that have given up, or go in and out of giving up. It is much easier to become whole if one is working with the healers.

However, their work is not the basis of healing. Healing comes from God, who is the only one who is able to infuse the life He created into us, and to bridge that gap between ourselves and himself.

I do not disagree with your framework, I just think it is not useful in an environment such as CAF. Protestants have a very difficult time apprehending the Apostolic Teaching as it is, having been separated from it for 500+ years. This type of language is part of what caused that separation, and I don’t think using it will heal it. I think we need to find language they can understand from a limited perspective (usually scripture alone) and reach them where they are, which is usually in an anti-Catholic frame of mind.

They need to come to a full understanding of the role of works in salvation, but it must be built upon the things they have already been able to grasp, which is the priniciple of grace. I speak broadly, and I realize there are many Protestants that don’t fit this, but the majority of those that frequent this board do.

 

[De_Maria]

I think the use of the words “earn”, “merit”, and “work on” in this context are confusing to our separated brethren.

I think you underestimate the intelligence of our separated brethren.

On cannot “earn” a cure,

One can and one does.

especially if one has to seek it from someone else outside themselves, and has not, within himself, the ability to access it.

That is exactly the opposite. When one’s body automatically rejects a disease or provides a cure, then one does not, in the ordinary meaning of the word, earn the cure. Although it could be said that one earned that cure by keeping one self in good condition and therefore maintaining a healthy immune system.

However, if one has to seek medical advice, seek medical intervention and obediently submit to examinations and treatments, then it is easy to see how one earned that cure if it comes about.

This is our state in sin. We cannot bridge the gap that has been created between ourselves and God as a result of sin. He has bridged it, and as a result, we can walk across.

Perfect!!! What happens if we don’t walk across?

But the basis of our being able to come to Him is His bridge. We have not the material or ability to build it.

Nor even the ability to walk across. But we have the will to decide to do so or not. Therefore, if we don’t cooperate with the grace of His bridge and the grace of His giving us the ability to cross the Bridge, we will not be saved.

Here let me try another tact.

As I’ve said before, all is grace. Even our ability to work for our salvation.

Now since you say that Grace is the only basis of our salvation then it should be easy to see that the grace of our God given ability to work for our salvation is just as necessary as any other grace.

Our ability to work for our salvation is a God given grace.

Therefore, salvation by works?! Amen!!! It is a God given grace.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[guanophore]

I think you underestimate the intelligence of our separated brethren.

Perhaps you have been on the wrong threads?

The really intelligent ones don;t usually come here to have this arguement!

One can and one does.

I agree. If it is a cure of the kind that can be earned, then it is due.

Rom 4:3-6
“Now to one who works, wages are not reckoned as a gift but as something due. 5 But to one who without works trusts him who justifies the ungodly, such faith is reckoned as righteousness.”

Due to original sin, humanity is in such a state that we are unable to work for the kid of cure we need.

That is exactly the opposite. When one’s body automatically rejects a disease or provides a cure, then one does not, in the ordinary meaning of the word, earn the cure. Although it could be said that one earned that cure by keeping one self in good condition and therefore maintaining a healthy immune system.

Yes. However, the system, in this case, must be healthy in the first place, which is not where humanity starts out with regard to sin.

However, if one has to seek medical advice, seek medical intervention and obediently submit to examinations and treatments, then it is easy to see how one earned that cure if it comes about.

Ok.

Perfect!!! What happens if we don’t walk across?

We will die in our sins. But it is not the walk that is the basis of the salvation, but the bridge upon which the walk takes place.

Nor even the ability to walk across. But we have the will to decide to do so or not. Therefore, if we don’t cooperate with the grace of His bridge and the grace of His giving us the ability to cross the Bridge, we will not be saved.

Yes, but we can walk all of our lives, and if we are not on the bridge, we will still get nowhere.

Here let me try another tact.

As I’ve said before, all is grace. Even our ability to work for our salvation.

Actually, it is all in your imagination. There is nothing in Scripture or Church teaching that indicates we can in any way work “for” salvation. In fact, it is everywhere the opposite.

Now since you say that Grace is the only basis of our salvation then it should be easy to see that the grace of our God given ability to work for our salvation is just as necessary as any other grace.

I would say that the grace to cooperate is from God, but the word “for” is misleading. We work it “out”, not 'for". He places the grace in us as a free gift, then we express it.

Our ability to work for our salvation is a God given grace.

Salvation cannot be achieved by “working for” it. We accept His grace by faith. It is a receptive act.

Therefore, salvation by works?! Amen!!! It is a God given grace.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Well, suit yourself. Good luck with that.

 

[De_Maria]

Perhaps you have been on the wrong threads?

The really intelligent ones don;t usually come here to have this arguement!

I’m assuming, because of the smilie, that you mean that in jest.

I have quite a bit of respect for the intelligence, the faith and the sincerity of our separated brethren. So, although I sometimes feel as you have mentioned above, it is only in the heat of battle (so to speak).

I agree. If it is a cure of the kind that can be earned, then it is due.

Rom 4:3-6
“Now to one who works, wages are not reckoned as a gift but as something due. 5 But to one who without works trusts him who justifies the ungodly, such faith is reckoned as righteousness.”

Due to original sin, humanity is in such a state that we are unable to work for the kid of cure we need.

We were unable to work for the kind of cure we need. By the grace of God, we are now permitted to do so. In fact, not only are we permitted to do so, but we are required to do so.

Yes. However, the system, in this case, must be healthy in the first place, which is not where humanity starts out with regard to sin.

You’ve changed venues. We were speaking about a person afflicted with cancer.

Ok.

We will die in our sins. But it is not the walk that is the basis of the salvation, but the bridge upon which the walk takes place.

Both. They are both the grace of God. And God’s criteria, God’s basis for the decision is whether we have walked far enough.

Yes, but we can walk all of our lives, and if we are not on the bridge, we will still get nowhere.

Correct. But once on the Bridge, we are not permitted to stop. That is what this means:
John 15
2 Every branch in me, that beareth not fruit, he will take away:

As I understand that verse, if we are on the Bridge but decide not to walk across, God the Father will escort us back down on the wrong end:

6 If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and case him into the fire, and be burneth.

Matthew 3
8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of penance. 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham for our father. For I tell you that God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham. 10 For now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. **Every tree therefore that doth not yield good fruit, shall be cut down, and cast into the fire. **

Actually, it is all in your imagination. There is nothing in Scripture or Church teaching that indicates we can in any way work “for” salvation. In fact, it is everywhere the opposite.

Philippians 2 12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

James 2
24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

Romans 2
13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

What you’ve done is take one or two verses of Scripture and made an entire theology out of it, Ignoring the rest of Scripture.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

To merit is to earn, is it not?
any admirable quality or attribute; “work of great merit”
deserve: be worthy or deserving; “You deserve a promotion after all the hard work you have done”
deservingness: the quality of being deserving (e.g., deserving assistance); “there were many children whose deservingness he recognized and rewarded”
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Merit (Latin meritum), in general, is understood to be that property of a good work which entitles the doer to receive a reward (prœmium, merces) from him in whose service the work is done. …
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merit (Catholicism)

Something deserving either good or bad; Something worthy of a high rating; A claim to commendation or reward; The quality of deserving reward; To earn or to deserve; To be worthy or deserving
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/merit

I would say that the grace to cooperate is from God, but the word “for” is misleading. We work it “out”, not 'for". He places the grace in us as a free gift, then we express it.

We work it “out” and not “for”… What do we “work it out” for?

Salvation cannot be achieved by “working for” it. We accept His grace by faith. It is a receptive act.

An act is a work.

Well, suit yourself. Good luck with that.

Thanks. I’ve had great success with that argument for many years. But I’ve noticed that some prominent Catholic Apologists are denying the efficacy of works…

I assume it is Protestant theology that is creeping into their doctrine.

One more thing. I noticed in this debate that everyone has acknowledged that I know what I am talking about regarding works and salvation. The only problem seems to be terminology.

That indicates to me, that some Catholics are not uncomfortable with my terminology as much as they are with Catholic doctrine.

Its as though you guys are saying, “You’re right! But don’t tell anyone!”

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[guanophore]

I’m assuming, because of the smilie, that you mean that in jest.

Actually, I seek them out on purpose, to hone my abilities.

We were unable to work for the kind of cure we need. By the grace of God, we are now permitted to do so. In fact, not only are we permitted to do so, but we are required to do so.

But the work is not the basis. Grace is the basis.

But once on the Bridge, we are not permitted to stop.  That is what this means:

John 15
2 Every branch in me, that beareth not fruit, he will take away:

As I understand that verse, if we are on the Bridge but decide not to walk across, God the Father will escort us back down on the wrong end:

6 If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and case him into the fire, and be burneth.

Matthew 3
8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of penance. 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham for our father. For I tell you that God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham. 10 For now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. **Every tree therefore that doth not yield good fruit, shall be cut down, and cast into the fire. **

Philippians 2 12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

James 2
24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

Romans 2
13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

What you’ve done is take one or two verses of Scripture and made an entire theology out of it, Ignoring the rest of Scripture.

cont’d

I have not. I have not disagreed with any of these verses. I have only reiterated that the only basis of our salvation is grace. All the verses you show here are directed to a person who is already in a state of grace, which cannot be achieved by works, only by grace, through faith. The works follow, and flow out of the grace.

 

[De_Maria]

Actually, I seek them out on purpose, to hone my abilities.

As do I.

But the work is not the basis.

By God’s grace it is.

Grace is the basis.

But not Grace alone.

I have not. I have not disagreed with any of these verses. I have only reiterated that the only basis of our salvation is grace.

As I said, “grace alone” is monergism.

You accused me of Pelagianism, but only because you ignored the words, “by the grace of God” which I have continually reiterated.

You have yet to explain how your idea of “grace alone” is not a serving of Monergism:
In its simplest form monergism states that the regeneration of an individual is the work of God the Holy Spirit alone,
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monergism

All the verses you show here are directed to a person who is already in a state of grace, which cannot be achieved by works, only by grace, through faith.

That is opposed to Scripture which says:
James 2
24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

The works follow, and flow out of the grace.

You’ve said this quite often, but John 15, the vine and the branches illustrates that people who are attached to the vine, if they produce no fruit, do not permit grace to flow through them and are cut off.

Matt 7 and 25 do the same:
Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matt 25 44** Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord,** when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.**46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting. **

It also neglects the fact that one must work to achieve that state of grace:
Matthew 4
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say: Do penance, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Luke 13
3 No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish.

Acts Of Apostles 2
38 But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Note the order here. Do penance first then be baptized. Not the other way around.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

It is much more difficult to be saved. Not impossible, but very difficult. I work daily with a lot of patients that have given up, or go in and out of giving up. It is much easier to become whole if one is working with the healers.

Excelente!

However, their work is not the basis of healing. Healing comes from God, who is the only one who is able to infuse the life He created into us, and to bridge that gap between ourselves and himself.

We’ve kind of shifted topics, but I would say that even in that respect, our cooperation with His grace is necessary:
Matthew 9
28 And when he was come to the house, the blind men came to him. And Jesus saith to them, Do you believe, that I can do this unto you? They say to him, Yea, Lord.

Mark 6
4 And Jesus said to them: A prophet is not without honor, but in his own country, and in his own house, and among his own kindred. 5 And he could not do any miracles there, only that he cured a few that were sick, laying his hands upon them.
6 And he wondered because of their unbelief, and he went through the villages round about teaching.

I do not disagree with your framework, I just think it is not useful in an environment such as CAF. Protestants have a very difficult time apprehending the Apostolic Teaching as it is, having been separated from it for 500+ years. This type of language is part of what caused that separation, and I don’t think using it will heal it. I think we need to find language they can understand from a limited perspective (usually scripture alone) and reach them where they are, which is usually in an anti-Catholic frame of mind.

Thats what I thought.

Just meandering, but I was wondering why Catholic apologists have taken this tactic. I began to suspect that it was to make Catholic doctrine more palatable to Protestants.

But Protestants can read Catholic doctrine as well as we can. Just read the writings of Joe Mizzi. He has us pegged correctly. He opposes what we believe. Plain and simple. Watering down the truth does nothing but irk him because he can go to Trent and the Catechism and read the truth.

It is unfruitful to try to persuade him or any other anti-Catholic otherwise with watered down Catholic doctrine.

But, I am more concerned with our Catholic brethren. I remember a debate that I purchased on CD a few years ago. Afterwards I regretted that I had bought it. The Catholic Apologists set Catholic apologetics back a few centuries after that display.

The debate was between Catholics and Protestants and in the end, there was a question and answer session. During that session, a Catholic woman addressed the Protestant and she said that “Salvation is by works.” Before the Protestant could respond the two Catholic apologists tripped all over each other trying to be the first one to put her down. They jumped all over that poor woman with more energy than they ever displayed against the Protestants. Obviously they wanted to justify themselves before the Protestant audience. They left the poor woman babbling to herself. It was unseemly AND it probably left a devout Catholic, many in fact, very confused. And that is even worse than offending Protestants who are already “anti-Catholic” as you have mentioned above and will more than likely remain anti-Catholic afterward.

After that display, I was actually happy to see the Protestants take what the CA’s had just handed them and wipe the floor with them. I wish I could remember the name of that CD but it was several years ago.

More recently I’ve sent an email to another Catholic Apologist who is proliferating the same error. But he’s not as open minded as yourself or the other people on this forum have been.

They need to come to a full understanding of the role of works in salvation, but it must be built upon the things they have already been able to grasp, which is the priniciple of grace. I speak broadly, and I realize there are many Protestants that don’t fit this, but the majority of those that frequent this board do.

I think you are making assumptions about what people can or can’t grasp. I don’t believe that watering down Catholic doctrine will do anything except hurt those who learn the watered down doctrine.

Anyway, I don’t think I’ve convinced you nor am I convinced by your arguments. So, I’ll agree to disagree without being disagreeable.

May God bless you and good luck with your approach as well,

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[guanophore]

By God’s grace it is.

Ok. Your view is is not consistent with the Apostolic Teaching. Having said this, I can do no more.

But not Grace alone.

As I said, “grace alone” is monergism.

Perhaps you will someday take my advice to read the threads on this. You have me pidgeonholed into someone else’s hole. The role you have assigned to me is not fitting. Sorry. This is a common topic here for me, and you will never find in any of my posts me using the words “grace alone” unless it is in order to refute them.

You accused me of Pelagianism, but only because you ignored the words, “by the grace of God” which I have continually reiterated.

I did no such thing. I asked if you had ever studied this heresy. I thought perhaps you were not familiar with it.

You have yet to explain how your idea of “grace alone” is not a serving of Monergism:
In its simplest form monergism states that the regeneration of an individual is the work of God the Holy Spirit alone,
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monergism

As I suggested previously, if you want to debate on this topic, it would do well for you to seek out a believer in it, which I am not. My theology is Catholic, not Calvanistic. I do not believe in grace alone, so I can 't help you there. Try sandusky or moondweller.

That is opposed to Scripture which says:
James 2
24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

We are justified by God’s grace, through the shed blood of Jesus. We access this grace (the basis) through faith and works (means).

You’ve said this quite often, but John 15, the vine and the branches illustrates that people who are attached to the vine, if they produce no fruit, do not permit grace to flow through them and are cut off.

In order to be cut off, one has to be attached first. We are attached as a free gift of God’s grace. We can’t earn it by anything that we do. Furthermore, fruit does not grow because the fruit “works”. Fruit is the natural expression of the nature of the tree. I check my orchard daily. I don’t observe any of the fruits jiggling about and yelling “grow! grow! I must grow” by their own efforts. No, they cling to the tree, and are nourished by it.

Matt 7 and 25 do the same:
Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Only those in a state of grace (the free gift and basis of our salvation) can do the will of the Father.

Matt 25 44** Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord,** when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

They were acting out of their nature (goats). The sheep know HIm,and they follow HIm. They do HIs works because they belong to HIm, not in order to belong to HIm.

It also neglects the fact that one must work to achieve that state of grace:
Matthew 4
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say: Do penance, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

The state of grace is achieved by recieving the free gift of God. I agree, however, it is a lot of work to remain in a state of grace daily.

Luke 13
3 No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish.

Jesus enjoins them to repent - to turn from a state of unbelief to a state of belief. As you have said, this is the work of God.

Acts Of Apostles 2
38 But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Turning away from unbelief is necessary in order to receive the free gift of life in Christ.

Note the order here. Do penance first then be baptized. Not the other way around.

How about a little study on the meaning of metanoia?

 

[De_Maria]

…How about a little study on the meaning of metanoia?

I think it would give great insight into this topic. Please begin.

 

[De_Maria]

Indeed, but realize that they were sheep and goats first. The sheep did good works BECAUSE they were sheep, and those who did not BECAUSE they were goats. The good works flow from our identity in Christ, and this is established on the basis of grace.

That isn’t true. Even the goats called Jesus Lord:
Matt 25 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee?

And this is clear from John 15. The fruitless branches will be also on the vine but will be cut off.

The same grace flows to both the sheep and the goats, the fruit bearing branches and the fruitless. Those who do not respond to that grace will be cut off.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[guanophore]

I think it would give great insight into this topic. Please begin.

I am not sure that it lies within the scope of the thread, but since you believe it is the basis of salvation, and I do not, then why don’t you begin?

 

[guanophore]

That isn’t true. Even the goats called Jesus Lord:
Matt 25 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee?

How many legs does a cow have? Let’s say you answer “four”.

Now, if I call it’s tail a leg, how many does it have now? If you said “five” then I have to tell you, calling the cow’s tail a leg will not make it a leg. Just so, calling Jesus “Lord, Lord”, and doing not what He says does not make Him Lord. These people are NOT in a state of grace, therefore, nothing they do will merit them anything.

And this is clear from John 15. The fruitless branches will be also on the vine but will be cut off.

Yes, but branches must be first grafted in, or grow from the trunk in order to be part of the tree or the vine. Those who call Him “Lord” are not necessarily branches. Only those who are “in” Him will bear fruit.

The same grace flows to both the sheep and the goats, the fruit bearing branches and the fruitless. Those who do not respond to that grace will be cut off.

The fact that grace is poured out upon all does not, as you seem to imply in your OP,create beneficiaries in all of that grace. People who don’t respond to grace are cut off already, because this is the result of original sin. That is why Jesus says “He who does not believe is condemned already”. We start out on the far side of the bridge by default.

 

[Cattitude]

I’d like to run my own simple version of how I understand things, and see how close I am to the real thing:

God’s grace is what makes us eligible to get into heaven; it is given freely to us even though we do not deserve it. What we do with that grace is what determines if we will actually get into heaven. Our faith is the first step in acceptance of the free gift which is God’s grace. After that, our works are the way that we show our love for God, and show Him that we are accepting His gift.

So when we are judged (or rendered) according to our works, it is only the works done by the grace of God that will be judged.

 

[guanophore]

I’d like to run my own simple version of how I understand things, and see how close I am to the real thing:

God’s grace is what makes us eligible to get into heaven; it is given freely to us even though we do not deserve it. What we do with that grace is what determines if we will actually get into heaven. Our faith is the first step in acceptance of the free gift which is God’s grace. After that, our works are the way that we show our love for God, and show Him that we are accepting His gift.

So when we are judged (or rendered) according to our works, it is only the works done by the grace of God that will be judged.

This is a very good summary of the Apostolic Teaching on salvation by grace, through faith. We are His workmanship, created for good works.

 

[De_Maria]

How many legs does a cow have? Let’s say you answer “four”.

Now, if I call it’s tail a leg, how many does it have now? If you said “five” then I have to tell you, calling the cow’s tail a leg will not make it a leg.

Just so, calling Jesus “Lord, Lord”, and doing not what He says does not make Him Lord. These people are NOT in a state of grace, therefore, nothing they do will merit them anything.

You mean that they aren’t in a perfect state of grace. But the fact that they are branches on the vine means that they are Baptized believers in Jesus Christ.

And the fact that they call Him Lord, means the same.

So, essentially you are snatching straws trying to come up with any redefinition of Scripture you can whip up in order to justify your erroneous belief.

Those people are obviously members of the body of Christ who have been cut off after they are deemed not to have produced fruit.

Yes, but branches must be first grafted in, or grow from the trunk in order to be part of the tree or the vine. Those who call Him “Lord” are not necessarily branches.

Jesus says they are:
2 Every branch in me, that beareth not fruit,

Only those who are “in” Him will bear fruit.

Read verse 2. Those branches are IN HIM also. And beareth not fruit.

Here’s what Jesus is saying:

1. If you are IN HIM and bear not fruit, you will be cut off.
2. If you are IN HIM and bear fruit, you will be pruned and bear more.
3. If you are IN HIM and want to continue bearing fruit, you must remain IN HIM. Because without Him you are not going to bear fruit.

Therefore, not everyone who is IN HIM will bear fruit. And they will be cut off because they don’t bear fruit.

The fact that grace is poured out upon all does not, as you seem to imply in your OP,create beneficiaries in all of that grace. People who don’t respond to grace are cut off already, because this is the result of original sin. That is why Jesus says “He who does not believe is condemned already”. We start out on the far side of the bridge by default.

That is true. But that corresponds to initial justification and we must respond to that grace as well.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

I’d like to run my own simple version of how I understand things, and see how close I am to the real thing:

Ok.

God’s grace is what makes us eligible to get into heaven; it is given freely to us even though we do not deserve it.

Ok.

What we do with that grace is what determines if we will actually get into heaven.

Perfect. That is the basis of God’s decision. What we DO with that grace.

Our faith is the first step in acceptance of the free gift which is God’s grace. After that, our works are the way that we show our love for God, and show Him that we are accepting His gift.

Correct.

So when we are judged (or rendered) according to our works, it is only the works done by the grace of God that will be judged.

Correct.

I see nothing wrong with your understanding.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

I am not sure that it lies within the scope of the thread, but since you believe it is the basis of salvation, and I do not, then why don’t you begin?

Metanoia means we convert to Christ. In essence, it is the hinge of the Scissor. It is our response to grace. It is the works side of the equation.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Ignatius]

I think the use of the words “earn”, “merit”, and “work on” in this context are confusing to our separated brethren. One cannot “earn” a cure, especially if one has to seek it from someone else outside themselves, and has not, within himself, the ability to access it.

Exactly the point I was trying to make. I don’t seem to be able to express it with sufficient clarity for the OP to understand.

Your explanation ought to do it. Thanks.

 

[guanophore]

You mean that they aren’t in a perfect state of grace. But the fact that they are branches on the vine means that they are Baptized believers in Jesus Christ.

Yes

And the fact that they call Him Lord, means the same.

Not a bit. Jesus was quite clear that those who believed they were children of Abraham were not necessarily so, whether they thought this of themselves, or not.

So, essentially you are snatching straws trying to come up with any redefinition of Scripture you can whip up in order to justify your erroneous belief.

On the contrary, my faith does not rest on the scripture, but the teaching of Jesus, through the Apostles.

While I will agree that those who fail to bear fruit are cut off, I cannot accept that they were ever members of His Body Not every one who calls Him Lord is a member of His Body. Not any more than one who calls a tail a leg make it a leg.

Jesus says they are:
2

Every branch in me, that beareth not fruit,

Read verse 2. Those branches are IN HIM also. And beareth not fruit.

Here’s what Jesus is saying:

1. If you are IN HIM and bear not fruit, you will be cut off.
2. If you are IN HIM and bear fruit, you will be pruned and bear more.
3. If you are IN HIM and want to continue bearing fruit, you must remain IN HIM. Because without Him you are not going to bear fruit.

I agree with all these points. Yet, calling Him “Lord” does not make one a branch.

Therefore, not everyone who is IN HIM will bear fruit. And they will be cut off because they don’t bear fruit.

Without question. Yet, the ability to bear fruit is not the basis of salvation. It is an expression of being saved, not a condition thereof.

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