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BRB
Guest
If we FIRST pray for it in faith … and THEN grow in faithful stewardship to Christ, doing the workmanship assigned to us.
Not working for it … but, serving Him willingly in appreciation for the gift of Cross.
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Not working for it … but, serving Him willingly in appreciation for the gift of Cross.
D
De_Maria
Guest
Scripture says:
Romans 2
7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
Sounds as though God wants us to work for it.
2 Paralipomenon 15
7 Do you therefore take courage, and let not your hands he weakened: for there shall be a reward for your work.
The gift aspect, is because the REWARD far out values the merit of the work which we are required to perform.
Its as though you would nail two boards together and someone would pay you $1,000,000,000.00.
There is no comparison between what we are required to do and what we get in return. Its the best investment you can make.
Sincerely,
De Maria
M
mikeledes
Guest
Monergism is not taught by the Catholic Church and not even taught by Thomist Catholics. I find your last statement disturbing, since you identify yourself as Catholic.
God Bless,
Michael
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BRB
Guest
Define IT.
Yes, work hard to earn Rewards. But, love gift [redemption] is free. You can’t buy love.
Question is … can we merit God’s Love gift by good work alone ?
D
De_Maria
Guest
Eternal life:
Romans 2
7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
That’s true. That is free. But God loves the saved and the unsaved.
God loves even those who don’t work. That is why He gave us the possibility of salvation, if we love Him enough to work for it.
Sincerely,
De Maria
L
lofktis14kr
Guest
Your premise supposes that free will means to be free from God’s control. Let’s suppose God does not control our eternal destiny, but do you not believe that He is in control of at least some things? For instance what you will eat for dinner today. I assume that you are going to thank Him for providing the daily bread for which you asked. But, of course, you don’t see yourself as a robot when you eat. Though God controls what you will eat does not mean that you will sit at an empty table and wait for Him to serve you. No, you will decide what options are available, how you will prepare it, when you will eat, what you will eat it on, and whether or not you will use a napkin. Although you have done everything you can to ingest that food, God was in control of it all. The reason our actions fit God’s soveriegnty is because He has ordained means to carry out His eternal purposes. So much so, that we appear to act independant of God.
Consider this in the light of prayer. If God is in control of everything why pray? What is the purpose of praying for a certain outcome if God has already determined what will happen? Again, because God had appointed prayer to be a means by which He carries out His eternal plan.
The early church understood this full well. They wanted protection from persecuters, and freedom to preach the Gospel, so where a better place to turn for an such impossible hopes as these than to the One who controls all things, even the acts of wicked men. Consider their prayer in Acts 4:24-30. "And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, "Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, said by the Holy Spirit, “‘Why did the Gentiles rage, and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed’–” The church recognized that the Psalm they quoted was fulfilled in Jesus’ mock-trial. “for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” They were praying to God, that just as He has worked in those wicked men to carry out the crucifixion of Jesus, that He would now exercise restraint upon them. And notice God’s response to their acknowledgement of His power and purpose behind even these things. *And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness. * God shook that place as if to say, “AMEN!”
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Thing
Guest
Gods plan for Adam was this; And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness:, he was made for a purpose.
But Adam must have used his free will because his final state was not the total image and likeness of God it should have been.
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BRB
Guest
Perhaps, … or the alternative — to choose to be obedient.
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BRB
Guest
No … unless, its Mass and he serves the bread/wine.
B
BRB
Guest
No … he provides for our needs. But, we must cooperate …
raising the food, bringing it to harvest, and preparing the table fare.
We must also push away from table at proper jucture … to avoid sin of gluttony.
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BRB
Guest
Because we are to imitate Christ and obey his commandments/teachings. Christ prayed to the Father … the Lord’s Prayer was taught us.
Didn’t Christ teach us that only the Father knows when the final day will come ? Did Christ teach that everything in our lives is Predestined … and that we can’t influence our outcomes ?
S
SimonArizona
Guest
When you do evil deeds, you sin. And Christ said “if you obey my commands you will remain in me.” When you do wicked deeds you lose grace and wound the soul.
Death to sin is absolutley necessary for salvation. When you are not sinning you are doing well. Your deeds are good. This is inseparable form salvation. So how can you say good deeds are not required for salvation, when evil deeds will damn you?
The free gift is Christ’s death on the cross that made salvation possible. Taking up our cross and following Jesus is the only way to heaven.
Faith and obedience are hand in hand, there is no separating them. Galatians sought to be back under the subjection of the law, that was the rebuke. It is not the law that saves but obeying the commands of Christ Jesus which is doing the will of the Father.
:yeah_me:
Death to sin is absolutley necessary for salvation. When you are not sinning you are doing well. Your deeds are good. This is inseparable form salvation. So how can you say good deeds are not required for salvation, when evil deeds will damn you?
The free gift is Christ’s death on the cross that made salvation possible. Taking up our cross and following Jesus is the only way to heaven.
Faith and obedience are hand in hand, there is no separating them. Galatians sought to be back under the subjection of the law, that was the rebuke. It is not the law that saves but obeying the commands of Christ Jesus which is doing the will of the Father.
:yeah_me:
L
lofktis14kr
Guest
These are not inconsistent with God’s soveriegnty. Consider the Lord’s model for our prayers. It is a confession of utter depenance upon God for all that we are and have. If God does not exercise soveriegn dominion over His Creation, then why ask that He do anything through it? Because as Paul said, “He worketh all things after the counsel of His own will.”
What sense was it for Jesus to pray, “if it is at all possible, please remove this cup from Me. Even so, not as I will, but as Thou will.”
What sense was it for the early church to attribute Christ’s crucifixion to “Thy hand and Thy purpose.”
What sense was it for Satan to report to God before testing Job. And although the Devil, the Sabiens, Chaldeans, and great tempest were responsible for taking away all that he had, what sense did it make for Job to fall on his face and declare, “the Lord gives and the Lord takes away.”
What sense did it make for Joseph to stand before his brotherś who left him for dead and say to them, “what you intended for evil, the Lord intended for good.”
We don’t act independant of God’s eternal purpose, even when our purposes conflict with His. “Woe to Assyria the rod of My anger, and the staff in whose hands is My indignation. I send it against a godless nation and commission it against the people of My fury, to capture booty and to sieze plunder and to trample them down like mud in the streets. Yet it does not so intend, nor does it plan so in its heart…by the power of My hand and by My wisdom I did this…” Isaiah 10.
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Thing
Guest
God wills the salvation of all;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
But,
…broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat.
Not everyone is ‘saved’ dispite God willing salvation for all.
Clearly we are free to reject Him and be lost, and, we are clearly free to accept Him also, - free will.
L
lofktis14kr
Guest
There are places where it might appear that the Scripture contradicts itself. But since Truth cannot annul itself, we need to see how the one fits with the other.
I have given you a set of Scriptures which support the doctrine of God’s soveriegnty and man’s agency. You have given me 2 verses which you apparently believe contradicts what I laid out.
But seeing these in their context, both the larger and immediate, we find they are compatible.
What Paul is addressing in 1Tim. 2, is the churchs’ responsibility to “make supplications for all men. For kings and for all that are in authority.” Now, if we were to take that verse by itself, one might argue that Paul really means, only all men that are kings and in authority. But we would reject that interpretation because of what we find in the greater context.
When Paul refers to “all men” in verses 2 and 4, he must mean “all kinds of men.”, including, those in authority, etc… If Paul meant all men as in every individual who walks the face of the earth, then he would be contradicting the doctrine of reprobation. “God has made all things for Himself, even the wicked for the day of destruction.”
See how John interprets man’s rejection of Jesus with the words of Isaiah. In John 12:39-41, John says "so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”
John knew why men reject the gospel as he interpreted Scripture with Scripture.
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BRB
Guest
Well, there are limits to what we can assign to God’s will/eternal purpose. If we do evil, we sure don’t act in accordance with his desires.
Does God approve/inspire the murder, rape, robbery that is rampant in society ?
I think at best we could say he tolerates evil & his eternal purpose. We know such evil will be punished in the final judgment. Everyone will have to give account for their actions.
Would God punish an action he inspired ? God cannot purpose or do evil. It is not part of his nature.
There is active warfare between forces of good & evil ongoing. That Isaiah quote simply confirms God hates evil and punishes it —sometimes by letting the evil ones destroy other evil nations.
H
Huiou_Theou
Guest
Right, and supplying energy is not the same as dictatorship… (ERGo: the God is not energy.)
I agree if you mean merit = earn purely of one’s own autonomy without outside “loans”.
Hmmm… but an infant bears no fruit, and ergo, what tree is that?
I agree he is emphasizing that works can be used as evidence. As a philosopher stated, “I think therefore I am” – But really, now, He can only think because he exists – not vice versa.
Some things exist without thinking.
Is thinking merely and only evidence of existence? I think not! Thinking is certainly capable of more irritation than just mere evidence of being…
Now, since faith is a WORK, then clearly one must show faith by showing a work. Not vice versa – eg: ridiculous to mean that one must show work by showing faith. Some works are faithless… What a piece of work that is!
But Man is justified by works, as the bible directly states!
Paul is arguing against people who wish to say the LAW is the ONLY thing one need do, I read the passages too.
They are aimed at proud Jews, and what kind of work a proud Jew does. (eg: How does a Pharisee normally interpret the works of the Law? eg: his own way. )
Uh, yeah there is. We can lie – Christ can’t do that. God can’t lie. Says so in the good book. BUT Cretans!!!, always liars – this man has told the Truth! … Choke!
What a dimwit I must appear to some people.
Now that’s obnoxious. I’ll pretend you’re innocent and just point at a previously crammed down the throat opinion of mine.
Like this thread on : It is NOT finished! it is TeTele-S-Tai:
There are free exercises at the end of that thread by a non-believer which ought to prove quite entertaining if you have the time!
I sort of agree, but not just by his death if that’s what you mean!, but also by his resurrection and taking the LIVING blood into the altar of purification where we are purified.
Without resurrection, what good is a corpse of an Innocent man? Hey, here’s justification?? Two wrongs makes a right?
tantrum is over…
Yeah, and the bible says he was justified by works (eg: BUT not of the Law as Paul proved rather his were faithful works.)
Have you ever read the part of the bible before God called Abraham to go to a promised land?
It does exist, really. And I would hazard to guess that it talks about what Abraham was doing … before the call. eg: what work, the traveler’s mile and all.
I observe him seeking that very land already that God was later going to call him to. BUT unable to get there – no energy, see-- and a wife besides – he needed HELP!!! and of lots of cries of HEEELLLP! ) (please laugh, I don’t want your wrath…really…)
Yes, Abraham sure is. He worked and God raised his work to high heaven – humble work. The work of faith is no good without God’s approval. Can Abraham boast? No. He couldn’t get there on his own… But God “Energized” Abraham. I like that.
OTOH, The shrewd Jews, have the rule book – and expected to play God their way. Remeber Jacob wrestling with God? – why, God has already PROMISED him a blessing. But no, he had to wrestle boastfully and earned the name IS-RA-EL. the MAN who does EVIL (gets the better) of God.
If God hadn’t promised, Jacob surely couldn’t have gotten a mere slap on the wrists or the thigh.
I’ll agree, however, that it is a big fantasy if one tries to argue that God did not ultimately us everything we have, including hands with which to work and a mind with which to seek and a FREE WILL with which to choose. For God created everything, and (he isn’t a pantheistic Energy God), his non-essential Power holds the universe in existence. That is why the incarnation was still a possibility.
Am I following you ~ somewhat? Maybe I’m a little sloppy or something? Let me know.
L
lofktis14kr
Guest
Yes and no. The Scriptures teach two aspects of God’s will.
One expression is found in His precepts, the other is expressed in His decrees.
Deut. 29:29 delineates them for us simply, and applicably.
“The secret things belong to the Lord our God; but those things which are revealed, belong to us and to our children forever that we may do the words of this law.”
The secret things refer to what God has decreed should happen. That expression of His will is hid from us until it comes to pass.
The other is, of course, ‘this law’. There we find what pleases God’s holy character.
What God has revealed through His precepts, “Thou shalt not murder.” says, no, He does not approve of it. But what He has revealed through His decree, “He worketh all things after the counsel of His will.” says, yes, He does inspire it.
God does not need us to justify Him for what He does, or ‘tolerates’. The fact that God inspires men to do evil, does not mean it is wrong for Him to judge them. Because, though God uses such as instruments in His hand, He does not participate in their sin…
A great part of this cosmic battle is between God and the sinner who are at cross purposes with each other.
That Isaiah passage, says more than how God feels about the matter, it also says how the nation of Assyria felt. “Yet it does not so intend, nor does it so plan in its heart.”
Their intention was to gratify their violent greed, but God’s was to gratify His righteous justice. What was sin on their part was righteous on God’s. “By the power of My hand and by My wisdom, I did this.”
Then in verse 12 we learn that He would vindicate Himself by acting vengence back upon the King of Assyria. “When the Lord has finished all his work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, he will punish the speech of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the boastful look in his eyes.”
So we see that God does use evil deeds to carry out His holy purpose, and He is justified in punishing them because, as Joseph told his brothers, “what you intended for evil, God intended for good.”
We should probably get back to the original topic, and see how these things apply to it.
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