Salvation by works? Amen!

[mikeledes]

This is only in relation to condign merit. Think about it, if your interpretation of these words is correct, then you have condemned all humanity to hell. It is a vicious circle.

Lets carry your interpretation to its logical conclusion.

1. No one is born with sanctifying grace.
2. Therefore, no one can please God.
3. Therefore, no one can be justified.
4. Therefore, no one can be saved.
5. Therefore, all are condemned to hell.

This is referring to the New Covenant only. Because, as I understand it, before the New Covenant, there was no instrument to bestow sanctifying grace. The instrument being Baptism.

This is faulty logic. No one can please God using their natural powers. Moved by God grace, however, they can repent and come to faith, which ends in justification. But as Trent clearly states, neither faith nor works merit justication. So God’s actual grace does not move you to merit justification. It moves you to receive justification in baptism.

In the Old Testament, the saints received sanctifying grace. As Hebrews 11 clearly states, the righteous of the Old Testament were justified by grace, Abraham being the most prominent example. And if the Old Testament sainst were justified, then they were infused with sanctifying grace because that is what justification means.

Therefore, if this is true, then we are saying that the Patrarchs, Prophets, Priests and Kings of the Old Testament did not please God and therefore did not merit. But we know that Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Elijah and Moses, just to name a few, did please God.

So, how did they please God without sanctifying grace?

If they did not have sanctifying grace, then they were not justified. And yet the Bible and the Catholic Church teaches that the Old Testament saints were justified and hence were infused with sanctifying grace. Abraham is the clearest example, since that is the example used by Paul.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[BRB]

That is not what instrumental cause means. Instrumental cause says that Baptism is the instrument which God uses to bestow sanctifying grace.

However, to get to the point where we are to receive the gift of justification,

Baptism … Trinitarian liturgy is the instrument of God [the Form]
Water is [the Matter] working on our Matter & Soul.
When Form & Matter come together … a covenant is established between the One of faith and God. Covenant conveys Free Gift of Redemptive Justification [Grace enabled Adoption into Sonship status]

   The only conceivable, possible Work allowed is Mental-verbal actions ... [Contrition, Confession & pledging of Loyalty Oath to Christ].

But, in the Biblical definition/concept of Works … this is better termed Faithful ‘covenant making’. Covenant ‘keeping’ could/would be evidenced by Works.

Make your covenant in Faith … keep your covenant in force, by Faith & Works.

 

[mikeledes]

That is not what instrumental cause means. Instrumental cause says that Baptism is the instrument which God uses to bestow sanctifying grace.

However, to get to the point where we are to receive the gift of justification, the gift of sanctifying grace, bestowed by the instrument or sacrament of Baptism, we have to merit that by our response of faith and obedience to God’s call for conversion and penance.

And this contradicts the very words of the Council of Trent:

**but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether FAITH or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace. **

The meritorious cause of justification is Christ.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

So, since sanctifying grace is bestowed only through Baptism, then before the Gospel, men were meriting without sanctifying grace and without being united to Christ.

So, if you are correct, how were they justified and how did they merit anything after justification?

Sincerely,

De Maria

There is no salvation outside of Christ. If man merited prior to the gospel without being united to Christ, then that would make man the meritorious cause of justification, not Christ. Both the Old and New Testament saints have Christ as their savior and at justification were united to Christ, because that’s what justification entails. The Old Testament saints were justified by grace through faith, as stated in Hebrews 11. Once justified, they had could merit condignly.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[BRB]

the Old Testament saints have Christ as their savior and at justification were united to Christ, because that’s what justification entails. The Old Testament saints were justified by grace through faith, as stated in Hebrews 11. Once justified, they had could merit condignly.

Its been said that one can legitimately find Christ spoken of / depicted in EVERY page of OT scriptures. He was clearly perceived by all the OT holy men/women and integral to their faith and lawkeeping efforts.

 

[De_Maria]

There is no salvation outside of Christ. If man merited prior to the gospel without being united to Christ, then that would make man the meritorious cause of justification, not Christ. Both the Old and New Testament saints have Christ as their savior and at justification were united to Christ, because that’s what justification entails. The Old Testament saints were justified by grace through faith, as stated in Hebrews 11. Once justified, they had could merit condignly.

God Bless,
Michael

But the question is “how?”

The instrumental cause is Baptism, remember? Baptism was instituted by Jesus Christ.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

You talk here as if Christ was a new invention of God … not available to the OT faithful, and not able to save them.

'We today haven’t seen Christ with our physical eyes. Same circumstances existed for David, the OT prophets, and the Hebrew faithful. These OT Hebrews knew their Messiah via private spiritual revelations …and thru OT scriptures.

As they looked FORWARD in faith to the certain future visitation of the Christ, we look BACK in faith upon the fulfilled historical life and passion of the Son.

Its all a timeline historical continuum, but with a timeless Christ who has aways been the means of merit and grace thruout the ages.

I know that Christ is not a new invention. The Angel of God and the Rock in the desert were apparitions of Jesus Christ in the Old Testament in my opinion.

But as we have discussed with Mike, Baptism is the instrumental cause of justification. How did the just men of the Old Testament get that way without Baptism?

My point is, that Mike has said that without sanctifying grace, men can’t merit. But sanctifying grace came only by the Sacrament of Baptism established by Jesus Christ.

Correct me if I’m wrong.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

You’ve written a lot of stuff, so I’m going to address it in bulk because I presently don’t have the time to address each individual item.

With all due respect, I’ll await for your response when you have more time. Because it seems you’ve simply warmed over what you said before. I’ll respond to those things in this item in which I disagree.

What the Council of Trent is saying is that not all of the works performed by the unjust are sins, as claimed by Luther and Calvin.

Correct. But more, Protestants have always claimed that man is incapable of merit. Therefore, Canon VII is saying that man, before justification, is capable of merit.

Canon IV is like it.

**CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man’s free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema. **

**CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema. **

Now, if man is required to have faith and works in preparation for justification. And God justifies only those men who respond to him in faith and works, then this is congruous merit since congruous merit is paid only according to the liberality of the giver:

Hence the reward of congruous merit always depends in great measure on the kindness and liberality of the giver, though not purely and simply on his good will.
newadvent.org/cathen/10202b.htm

And this is what men were working for in the Old Testament:
Psalms 17
21 And the Lord will reward me according to my justice; and will repay me according to the cleanness of my hands:

You must understand that both Luther and Calvin had a monergistic understanding of faith that and did not believe in the cooperation of the will (typically called synergism). Since Luther and Calvin believed man was totally depraved, it is impossible for the human will to positively respond to God. God simply gives you the gift of faith and there is no cooperation of the will.

Understood.

Regarding condign and congruent merit:

**Catholic theology distinguishes at least three types of merit: congruent **merit, in which it is fitting for an act to be rewarded, but there is no obligation to do so;

**

Correct.

condign merit

, in which one has promised to reward the act, so there is an obligation; Not exactly as I understand it. I understand it as merit which is due to the relationship. Condign merit is due to Jesus relationship as Son of God. It is due to us as adopted children.

**

and what might be called strict merit, in which there is not only an obligation to reward, but the value of the act is equal to the value of the reward.

**2007 **With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

**The Church teaches only Christ is capable of meriting in the strict sense. **/QUOTE]

Correct.

The most merit humans can have is condign - when, under the impetus of God’s grace, they perform acts which please him and which he has promised to reward (Rom. 2:6-11, Gal. 6:6-10). Thus God’s grace and his promise are the foundation for all human merit (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2007-2008).

catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9901frs.aspThat is correct because condign merit is due to Christ. But men can also merit “congruously” due to the liberality of God. That is why it is a gift.

The justified

merit condignly those things which God has promised.Correct.

It is my position, that the unjustified who have converted to God, merit congruously.

***2027 ***No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

Initial justifcation is conditioned on repentace, faith, and baptism.

Correct. Those conditions, although they do not merit justification in condignly, still merit justification congruously because of the liberality of God.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

Baptism is the instrumental cause of justification, not the meritorious cause.

Correct. That means that it is the instrument which God established to bestow Sanctifying grace. But submitting to Baptism is meritorious. It is the obedience of faith.

What is the question asked of all who will be baptized?

Priest:N., what do you ask of the Church of God?
Catechumen: Faith. .
Priest: What does Faith offer you?
Catechumen: Life everlasting.

Priest: If then you desire to enter into life, keep the commandments. ‘Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.’

Which means that Baptism is not a meritorious work that one performs in order to be rewarded justification.

Not so. It is our meritorious work which we perform in order to be rewarded with justification. It is the only instrument which God has established for this purpose.

This is congruous merit. It is like you nailing two boards together and receiving a million dollars. The reward far exceeds the value of the work. It is due to the liberality of the giver and not due to the intrinsic value of the work nor of the worker.

It is the God ordained means by which the gift of justification is conferred. Consequently, there is no merit - condign or congruent - involved because, as the Council of Trent clearly states, nothing preceding justification - faith or works - merits justification.

That is correct. God needs nothing from us. Not faith or works. Therefore, the value of our efforts before justification is not anywhere near the value of the gift given.

But God requires our faith and works before justification. Therefore, there is congruous merit for these works before justification.

What you have argued is that moved by actual grace, man merits the infusion of sanctifying grace (justification).

First of all, we need to determine how man was justified before the advent of Baptism since Baptism is the instrument of sanctifying grace by which we are justified.

If man is made just by the infusion of sanctifying grace then there was another instrument of such justification before the New Covenant. Because Enoch, Abraham, Moses, and Rahab, amongst others, were said to please God and were therefore just. What was it?

I believe it is the congruous merit of works. As St. James said:
James 2
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

James 2
25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?

Without Baptism as the instrumental cause, what else could it be?

That is not congruent merit because congruent merit is not based on any divine promise. If it were, it would be condign.

Wrong. Condign merit is based on relationship.

Congruous merit is based on promise.

What you have basically argued here is that through repentance, faith, etc. , man merits justification condignly.

Congruously. The reward is far beyond the value of the work. It is therefore termed a gift.

Again,. the Council of Trent states that man cannot merit justification.

Man can’t.

Example: Lets say you have one million dollars. It is yours to give to whomever. No one has a right to it but you.

In the same way, no man has a right to union with God. Except one, the Son. That is condign merit.

But the state of union with Him is His to give to anyone. And He has set conditions as to whom He will give this reward. To those who seek it in good faith and good works. Therefore, by His liberality and gracious will, we can merit this relationship.

Once we congruously merit this relationship, we become His adopted children in Christ and we then condignly merit what Christ has merited for us.

Actually, that particular part is a bit fuzzy to me. I think we continue to congruously merit what Christ condignly merited for us. But I’m not certain.

Moreover, without the gift of final perseverence, there is no merit.

Yes there is. You are looking at this from the wrong direction. We can lose our merit if we do not persevere. But we can and do merit final perseverence IF we persevere to the end. We do this day by day:
CHAPTER X.
On the increase of Justification received. Having, therefore, been thus justified, and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day; that is, by mortifying the members of their own flesh, and by presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified, as it is written; He that is just, let him be justified still; and again, Be not afraid to be justified even to death;…

If you do not die in state of grace, all of your merits “die.” And the gift of final perseverance can never be merited condignly.

ALL our graces were merited condignly by Jesus Christ. Therefore, that leads me to believe that I am correct that we merit congruously what Jesus merited condignly.

Baptized infants that die before the age of reason go to heaven without merits.

That is correct.

God Bless,
Michael

Again, looking forward to your reply.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[guanophore]

Most of this seems repetitive. As I have said, I believe the problem is with those who say that the Church never, ever taught that salvation is by works. The Church teaches that by the grace of God, salvation is by works.

Yes, I agree, it is repetitive. Clearly you have you mind made up on this issue. You are right that the church never, every, taught that salvation is by works. I also see that you have a problem with those that have recieved this teaching from the Apostles, as you seem to have another idea that you like better.

Let me say it another way. I have no problem with those who say “salvation is by grace.” That is true.

I have a problem with those who go on and deny that the Church teaches that salvation is by works. That is false.

Everyone must do what is right in her own eyes. God will judge a person in the light of her own conscience, and if this is what you believe in your heart, and you practice accordingly, then you will be judged accroding to that measure.

It is even better to say that salvtion is by grace through faith expressed in works.

Yes, I think this is a much better way of saying it.

Such an expression eliminates a lot of confusion, especially among those many who have been misinformed about the role of works in salvation.

It is the denial that we are **required** to cooperate with grace which is false.

This is also problematic. God is not fickle. God has revealed whom He will save. He will save those who seek salvation. Not those who don’t.

IF we seek His salvation. Everyone is not saved.

It is true that not everyone is saved. Even more true that no one can save himself, or work his way into heaven.

You seem to believe that you have an absolute formula for saving Protestants? You don’t. All we do is plant the seed and water. God causes the growth.

Surely there is no absolute formula for “saving” anyone. I do know some of the major stumbling blocks, especially in those persons coming out of traditions that have been influenced by Calvanistic thinking.

Yeah. I have an axe to grind with Catholics who are watering down doctrine.

If you question my faith in the Church, read my other posts. If that doesn’t convince you, I have no problem.

If you find yourself in a position to need to judge other Catholics, and condemn them for “watering down doctrine”, then you must, as I say, do as your conscience requires, browbeating and maligning their sincerity as you feel necesary.

I do not question your faith in your Church. I have only found your expressions of your faith wanting.

Unless I see a new argument, I won’t respond to anymore messages on this thread.

De Maria

This is a very good thing, since it will result in the thread getting buried, increasing the possibility that the miscommunication will be buried along with it!

 

[guanophore]

What you just quoted says that our sins are detestable to God.

Yes, but it also says that we do not merit justificaton, and that no good works we do are of any merit in becoming justified.

So, because it would be a vicious circle to say that one can't merit until one is justified, God permits those who will to be justified to merit justification by their desire to be justified and their perseverence in good works.

Otherwise, no one would ever be converted. Because, their turning to God, their converting, their faith, a meritorious work, would be detestable in God’s eyes.

While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. It is His death on the cross, and His shed blood covering our sins that “merits” justification for us. We do not merit this oursleves by our own desire, or perseverance in good works.

And Scripture shows, that even before Baptism, before justification a man can be pleasing to God:

Acts Of Apostles 10
22 Who said: Cornelius, a centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and having good testimony from all the nation of the Jews, received an answer of an holy angel, to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Cornelius acted in faith, just as did all the descendents of Abraham. It is faith that pleases God. His deeds, expressing his faith, “ascended as a memorial before God”. God sent him the means to be justified because he appealed to God in faith. He was not trying to justify himself by his own meritorious works.

 

[guanophore]

Here is the key statement in Trent which I believe colors everything which you have said about not being able to merit before Justification:
Canon 7.
If anyone says that all works done before justification, in whatever manner they may be done, are truly sins, or merit the hatred of God; that the more earnestly one strives to dispose himself for grace, the more grievously he sins, let him be anathema.

It is important to keep the Council of Trent in context. The teachings of Trent were a direct response to Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli.

All of these teach “total depravity”, which is a departure from Apostolic Teaching. The Apostles taught that one may earnestly strive and dispose himself toward grace. Although this striving does not merit justification, it is not, as the Reformers erroneously taught, a “more grievious sin” than not striving. This you pointed out with the example of Cornelius, who acted in faith, and completed his faith in his works. God then showed him how he could be justified, just as He did everyone who comes in faith.

 No it doesn't.

The reason that grace obtained by merit depends upon the gift of final perseverance is that we can do good deeds all our lives, yet if we abandon faith at the end, we will lose it all. This is the nature of apostasy.

Merit depends upon cooperation with God's grace.

In the end. In other words, your merits will be wasted FOR YOU. But your merits will not be wasted for those for whom you have prayed who do received the grace of final perseverence.

Let us hope not! However, many are also pulled away from faith along with those who fall, and are dragged into error or licentiousness with those who apostasize. The one who falls will be accountable for them as well, for leading them into sin.

In other words, if you pray that John is released from purgatory or if you pray that Mary is healed while you are justified, but you fall into mortal sin and persist in mortal sin to the end, your merits are lost for yourself. But your merits for John and Mary are not lost unless they also fall from grace and persist in that state to the end.

The devil is always quick to attempt to stamp out any of the works of the just, or the fruits of them.

2 Peter 2:17-22

17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm; for them the deepest darkness has been reserved. 18 For they speak bombastic nonsense, and with licentious desires of the flesh they entice people who have just escaped from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption; for people are slaves to whatever masters them. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment that was passed on to them."

Their state is actually worse than the first, and they incur the judgement of those they carry away through enticement into error.

 

[De_Maria]

It is important to keep the Council of Trent in context. The teachings of Trent were a direct response to Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli.

All of these teach “total depravity”, which is a departure from Apostolic Teaching. The Apostles taught that one may earnestly strive and dispose himself toward grace. Although this striving does not merit justification, it is not, as the Reformers erroneously taught, a “more grievious sin” than not striving. This you pointed out with the example of Cornelius, who acted in faith, and completed his faith in his works. God then showed him how he could be justified, just as He did everyone who comes in faith.

The reason that grace obtained by merit depends upon the gift of final perseverance is that we can do good deeds all our lives, yet if we abandon faith at the end, we will lose it all. This is the nature of apostasy.

Let us hope not! However, many are also pulled away from faith along with those who fall, and are dragged into error or licentiousness with those who apostasize. The one who falls will be accountable for them as well, for leading them into sin.

The devil is always quick to attempt to stamp out any of the works of the just, or the fruits of them.

2 Peter 2:17-22

17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm; for them the deepest darkness has been reserved. 18 For they speak bombastic nonsense, and with licentious desires of the flesh they entice people who have just escaped from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption; for people are slaves to whatever masters them. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment that was passed on to them."

Their state is actually worse than the first, and they incur the judgement of those they carry away through enticement into error.

I get the feeling we aren’t talking about the same thing.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[guanophore]

This is why, the congruous merit of Abraham’s works are said to be a gift of God. Because God was under no obligation to recognize their value.

Yes, this is also the case with Cornelius.

And therein lies your error. Sanctifying grace is synonymous with Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is sanctifying grace.
2023 Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.

In other words, before the advent of Jesus Christ, there was no sanctifying grace. Therefore, if you interpret Catholic doctrine to mean that we must have sanctifying grace in our hearts before we can merit salvation, then you have condemned all men before Baptism and all men of the Old Testament.

Yes, this is the case. This is the result of the fall, and the condition into which we are born of original sin.

John 3:18-19
“Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”

We are condemned by virtue of original sin.

This is also why Jesus had to preach to the souls in the bosom of Abraham after his death.

Note that the Catholic encyclopedia acknowledges that man can merit before justification.

But this merit is not the basis of our salvation. That basis is found only in the shed blood of Christ.

In other words, since the time of the Gospel, it became necessary to be Baptized in order to be justified. But, before the advent of the Gospel, justification was obtained in a different manner.

The method of salvation has not changed. Humans have always been saved by grace, through faith. The actions completing the faith have been different, such as baptism being the completion of saving faith. In the time of Abraham, his faith was completed by different actions. Under the law of Moses, faith was proscribed to be completed by specific actions (including circumcision) but those who are saved are justified by grace, through faith.

So, since sanctifying grace is bestowed only through Baptism, then before the Gospel, men were meriting without sanctifying grace and without being united to Christ.

Yes, but they were saved by grace, through faith.

So, if you are correct, how were they justified and how did they merit anything after justification?

Sincerely,

De Maria

The merits came by the way you have been promoting, through just deeds done in grace. Obedience to the commandments merits more grace, and by our deeds are we further justified.

 

[guanophore]

It never means merit. But we always merit when we cooperate.

That is not what instrumental cause means. Instrumental cause says that Baptism is the instrument which God uses to bestow sanctifying grace.

However, to get to the point where we are to receive the gift of justification, the gift of sanctifying grace, bestowed by the instrument or sacrament of Baptism, we have to merit that by our response of faith and obedience to God’s call for conversion and penance.

If this were true, then we could not validly baptize the infant or the disabled.

This is only in relation to condign merit. Think about it, if your interpretation of these words is correct, then you have condemned all humanity to hell. It is a vicious circle.

Lets carry your interpretation to its logical conclusion.

1. No one is born with sanctifying grace.
2. Therefore, no one can please God.
3. Therefore, no one can be justified.
4. Therefore, no one can be saved.
5. Therefore, all are condemned to hell.

Exactly! You have got it. All of humanity is condemned due to original sin. God is not obligated to save any of us, as we bear the due penalty of sin. Yet out of His great love and mercy he has provided us a means, at HIs own expense, whereby we may be saved. Those who do not avail themselves of this grace are already condemned.

Therefore, if this is true, then we are saying that the Patrarchs, Prophets, Priests and Kings of the Old Testament did not please God and therefore did not merit. But we know that Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Elijah and Moses, just to name a few, did please God.So, how did they please God without sanctifying grace?

They were saved by grace, through faith, just as we are.

So, again I must refer to Canon 7 of the Council of Trent:
Canon 7. If anyone says that all works done before justification, in whatever manner they may be done, are truly sins, or merit the hatred of God; that the more earnestly one strives to dispose himself for grace, the more grievously he sins, let him be anathema.

This statement is best understood in the light of erroneous Reformed theology of total depravity.

 

[De_Maria]

If this were true, then we could not validly baptize the infant or the disabled.

Yes, we can. As someone else noted, it is the faith of the community which kicks in.

Exactly! You have got it. All of humanity is condemned due to original sin. God is not obligated to save any of us, as we bear the due penalty of sin. Yet out of His great love and mercy he has provided us a means, at HIs own expense, whereby we may be saved. Those who do not avail themselves of this grace are already condemned.

Amen!

They were saved by grace, through faith, just as we are.

But how did they please God without sanctifying grace? The question I asked Mike has to do with sanctifying grace. Isn’t it true that sanctifying grace comes only through Baptism?

Correct me if I’m wrong. This is a genuine question.

And if sanctifying grace comes only through Baptism, and it is only with sanctifying grace that we are justified by God, is it not? then what vehicle did they of the Old Covenant have to avail themselves of sanctifying grace?

So, again I must refer to Canon 7 of the Council of Trent:
Canon 7. If anyone says that all works done before justification, in whatever manner they may be done, are truly sins, or merit the hatred of God; that the more earnestly one strives to dispose himself for grace, the more grievously he sins, let him be anathema.

This statement is best understood in the light of erroneous Reformed theology of total depravity.

Correct. But in terms of what we are discussing, condign and congruous merit, it also sheds light on a comparison of St. James and St. Paul, justification by works statements and on the merit of those approaching justification.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Yes, but it also says that we do not merit justificaton, and that no good works we do are of any merit in becoming justified.

You seem to be simply reiterating the original interpretation of the statement. I believe, it says that the CALL to justification is unmerited. It says nothing of whether justification itself is merited.

Also, it says that nothing which we do has the intrinsic value of justification. But God gives it to us just the same. In other words, congruous merit.

While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

No doubt. My position is that Christ died for us so that we could seek out and merit our salvation.

It is His death on the cross, and His shed blood covering our sins that “merits” justification for us. We do not merit this oursleves by our own desire, or perseverance in good works.

No doubt. But His sacrifice is sufficient for ALL to be saved. Yet not all are saved. What is the difference between those who are saved and those who aren’t?

Those who are actually seek salvation by patience in good works. Therefore, they congruously merit what Jesus condignly merited for us.

Cornelius acted in faith, just as did all the descendents of Abraham.

And he is described as just, before he is baptized:
Acts Of Apostles 10 Found 2
22 Who said: Cornelius, a centurion,** a just man,** and one that feareth God, and having good testimony from all the nation of the Jews, received an answer of an holy angel, to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

BEFORE SANCTIFYING GRACE.

It is faith that pleases God. His deeds, expressing his faith, “ascended as a memorial before God”. God sent him the means to be justified because he appealed to God in faith. He was not trying to justify himself by his own meritorious works.

In other words, he merited justification.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Guanaphore,

The scriptures say that faith is a work. Not that it “earns” salvation – as De. Maria has repetitively pointed out.
It is the kind of work which is being disputed.

That is the very point of John 6 – where the condemned ask – what must we do to do the works of God. Jesus doesn’t say “I’ll do it in you” – rather, to be clear of our part, he tells them of a work they must do.

You can squabble all day long that the traditional church vocabulary – eg:“merit” in all its flavors – turns off Calvanists – but that doesn’t change the fact that in the inspired Scriptures show clearly that faith is itself a work.

The accomplishment, or consummation of this work requires God, for there is no relationship whenever God has not yet been introduced.

I think the passage in John is especially important for it shows HOW people come to faith, eg: by meeting Jesus and asking about salvation. Many in the crowd did not believe, though they all saw him and had the invitation to be with him – in other words, the Grace was manifest

Jesus doesn’t say, “I will do the work in you, go ahead and rest.” If that were so, he only need give them more bread – bread for the lazy – as he had already given them.

But, rather, to these once fed people he assigns a WORK that he says they are not doing.

When Adam was cast out of the garden, he too was assigned a work. That is to obtain food from farming the grains in spite of weeds. God did not owe Adam even the dirt to farm…

This was to bind Adam up against the damage the Devil had done. If Adam were truly and fully dead, both in body and in spirit, he wouldn’t have bothered to work, for it is easier to starve and blame God. (Adam’s already dead, right?)

Not even Abraham had the fullness of faith at first. He laughed as did his wife – but once the miracles beyond experience occurred, he then had reason to believe.

And, also, lest his reason be clouded, God said to him that his descendants shall be through Isaac – not a substitute as Hagar bore – but of Sarah his first WIFE. No symbol, but the real thing from the one flesh marriage. Thus he led Abraham to knowledge from fear. He knew God can take the dead clay and breathe life into it for Sarah was sterile.

When speaking of Abraham, what is it that Justifies him?
His obedience. He knew God could do as God said he would, and God had promised descendants (not symbolic) through Isaac. Abraham was taught of God.

So, IMHO.

Sanctifying Grace is where one enters into a relationship with God (he meets us) – and Justification is a work(s) and a right relationship with that same God. In our day, the work which God assigns is baptism. Those who do not baptize, really do not believe.

I expect you’ll pile your usual stuff in response…some people don’t seem to be able to change.

 

[lofktis14kr]

Guanaphore,

The scriptures say that faith is a work. Not that it “earns” salvation – as De. Maria has repetitively pointed out.
It is the kind of work which is being disputed.

That is the very point of John 6 – where the condemned ask – what must we do to do the works of God. Jesus doesn’t say “I’ll do it in you” – rather, to be clear of our part, he tells them of a work they must do.

Yes, God calls all men to repent and believe the Gospel. This is a necessary part of salvation. But unconverted men suppose themselves to be self-sufficient, able to save themselves, able to repent and believe by their own supposed ability. This is their pride and they cannot stand to be around those who tell them otherwise. Such was the case with the unconverted in John 6:65-66.

The accomplishment, or consummation of this work requires God, for there is no relationship whenever God has not yet been introduced.

Yes, but requires much more than mere introduction. Phil. 2:13, “for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”

Jesus doesn’t say, “I will do the work in you, go ahead and rest.” If that were so, he only need give them more bread – bread for the lazy – as he had already given them.
But, rather, to these once fed people he assigns a WORK that he says they are not doing.

Yes, and see how unhappy these pride-filled men are to learn that their only hope of doing anything unto salvation is in Christ. "Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”(John 6:44)

Not even Abraham had the fullness of faith at first. He laughed as did his wife – but once the miracles beyond experience occurred, he then had reason to believe.

No. Abraham believed God before the miracle of Issac took place. If he had not believed prior to the miracle then he would not have been justified. (Rom. 4:20-22) Abraham was justified, because he trusted in God’s ability and power to perform what He had promised.

When speaking of Abraham, what is it that Justifies him? His obedience. He knew God could do as God said he would, and God had promised descendants (not symbolic) through Isaac. Abraham was taught of God.

Yes. James actually points out the ocassion of Abraham taking Issac up Mt. Moriah to sacrifice him. But we need to understand that James’ point in saying Abraham was justified by works is not that works were the grounds of his justification, but the evidence of it. The context makes this clear. “show me your faith apart from works, and I will show you mine by my works.”, “You *see *that faith was active…” “You see that a person is justified by works…” Abraham’s obedience was the fruition of his justification, not the grounds of it.

Sanctifying Grace is where one enters into a relationship with God (he meets us) – and Justification is a work(s) and a right relationship with that same God. In our day, the work which God assigns is baptism. Those who do not baptize, really do not believe.

I don’t mean any disrespect, however, your humble opinion raises itself against Paul’s teaching on justification. Works are the evidence of our justification, but the grounds of our justification rests on the only sure foundation of the church: the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
Please read what Paul says in Romans 3:20-28.

 

[guanophore]

But the question is “how?”

The instrumental cause is Baptism, remember? Baptism was instituted by Jesus Christ.

Sincerely,

De Maria

With the preaching of John the Baptist, the instrumental cause became baptism. When Jesus entered the waters of baptism, He sanctified them, and united the HS to them. Before that, there were other instrumental causes.

Correct. That means that it is the instrument which God established to bestow Sanctifying grace. But submitting to Baptism is meritorious. It is the obedience of faith.

I get the feeling we aren’t talking about the same thing.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Could that be because you do not believe that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not of our own works, lest we have cause to boast?

Yes, we can. As someone else noted, it is the faith of the community which kicks in.

Are you saying that a soul can be saved on the basis of the merits of his fatih community?

Is this not why the mormons baptize the dead?

 But how did they please God without sanctifying grace?  The question I asked Mike has to do with sanctifying grace.  Isn't it true that sanctifying grace comes only through Baptism?

Faith pleases God, and the works which complete the faith please God.

For us, sanctifying grace begins in baptism. God can dispense sanctifying grace however He desires. Since nothing unclean can enter heaven, clearly Enoch, Elijah, Moses, and who knows who else that were taken up, were sanctified by grace, through faith.

And if sanctifying grace comes only through Baptism, and it is only with sanctifying grace that we are justified by God, is it not? then what vehicle did they of the Old Covenant have to avail themselves of sanctifying grace?

God can sanctify (make holy) anyone He desires, in whatever way He chooses.

Correct. But in terms of what we are discussing, condign and congruous merit, it also sheds light on a comparison of St. James and St. Paul, justification by works statements and on the merit of those approaching justification.

We are justified by grace, through faith. Our faith is completed by works. It is grace that justifies. Faith and works are avenues by which we access that grace. This is the way it has been from the beginning.

I believe, it says that the CALL to justification is unmerited. It says nothing of whether justification itself is merited.

Are you suggesting that, like the Calvanists purport, not all are called? Is the “call” of some “justified”, and others are not “called” because they do not “merit” such a call?

No doubt. My position is that Christ died for us so that we could seek out and merit our salvation.

Clearly. If we could "merit’ salvation, then there would be no need for Christ to shed His blood, would there?

You are certainly entitled for your position that you can seek out an merit your own salvation. Such an attitude is what spawned the Protestant Reformation in the first place!