Salvation by works? Amen!

[mikeledes]

It takes good works to arrive at a state of grace.

That is not Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church teaches that the initial grace of justification (i.e. arriving at a state of grace) is unmerited. In other words, it is not given to us on the basis of good works.

It tatkes good works to maintain a state of grace.

That is according to God’s will.

Sincerely,

De Maria

It is God who maintains us in a state of grace and maintains our merits when He gives the gift of final perseverence.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[De_Maria]

That is not Catholic teaching.

Sure it is.

The Catholic Church teaches that the initial grace of justification (i.e. arriving at a state of grace) is unmerited.

No She doesn’t. The Church teaches that one can’t merit the initial grace of justification by one’s works. However, the Church also teaches that if one doesn’t respond to God’s grace by one’s works, repentance, conversion, then one will not be justified.

CANON IV. If any one shall affirm, that man’s freewill, moved and excited by God, does not, by consenting, cooperate with God, the mover and exciter, so as to** prepare and dispose itself** for the attainment of justification; if moreover, anyone shall say, that the human will cannot refuse complying, if it pleases, but that it is inactive, and merely passive; **let such an one be accursed"! **

CHAPTER V.
On the necessity, in adults, of preparation for Justification, and whence it proceeds. The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient [Page 33] grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you, we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer; Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted, we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God.

The bolded section tells us we are called. The italic section says what we are called to do. We are called to justify ourselves by cooperating with the initial grace of justification.

In other words, we do not merit the initial grace. But we do merit the justification by cooperating with the initial grace.

In other words, it is not given to us on the basis of good works.

The grace is not. The justification is a direct result of good works. Those being conversion and repentance.

It is God who maintains us in a state of grace and maintains our merits when He gives the gift of final perseverence.

Sorry. But that is also false. We have to do our part. We have to cooperate with that grace.

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity,** we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, **for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

God Bless,
Michael

And you as well.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[maylebkc]

The CCC puts grace and works this way.

“… for it is by grace that we are saved and again it is by grace that our works can bear fruit for eternal life…” (1697).

“… the soul dead through sin comes back to life in order to live with Christ, whose grace has saved us…” (981).

"…Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord’s words “Thus you will know them by their fruits”- reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty… (2005).

 

[De_Maria]

The CCC puts grace and works this way.

“… for it is by grace that we are saved and again it is by grace that our works can bear fruit for eternal life…” (1697).

This seems to express exactly what I’m saying. It is both/and. Both grace and our response to it.

“… the soul dead through sin comes back to life in order to live with Christ, whose grace has saved us…” (981).

It is true that Christ’s grace saves us. But so do our works. Will you ignore the rest of the teachings of the Catholic Church as though they aren’t true?

CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2027 (224 bytes ) preview document matches
by the Holy Spirit, we can **merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain **eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods

"…Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord’s words “Thus you will know them by their fruits”- reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty… (2005).

That simply means that we aren’t the judge. It does not mean that God does not judge us based on our works.

: CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 682 (237 bytes ) preview document matches
glorious Christ will reveal the secret disposition of hearts and will render to each man according to his **works, and ****according to his acceptance or refusal of grace **

CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 679 (493 bytes ) preview document matcheshe has in himself. By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself,** *receives ******according to one’s *****works, **and can even condemn oneself for all eternity

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Huiou_Theou]

De Maria.

What a beautiful argument, if confusing.

In baptism, a child is saved – should one argue that “confirmation” requires their later ratification – consider that confirmation IS part of baptism of infants in many rites.

The word in Trent which is so telling – is the assisting grace. Now I don’t pretend to know exactly how the purity of a child is – they may require purgatory to remove whatever the devil has done – but their own internal conscious decision aside (which is Augustine’s dilemma when dealing with the idea of unbaptized infants going to hell… vs. the exorcisms in baptism which clearly show an evil existed which (if not the owner) needed to be removed from the body of even infants…

But, this “assisting” grace – we know, as you have pointed out, that “Faith” is itself a work. The argument is spinning around “whose” work – and in the case of infant baptism it is the “work” of God THROUGH the person who opens their mouth in the words of baptism. “I baptize you, in the name, …” So, although I agree heartily with your opening salvo considering the difference between a “work” and “earning” salvation (which is free) – even in the case of a water baptism on earth (which saves) – a cooperating work is required of the baptizer. We pray “for” each other, we “work” in the fields for a harvest of souls, one person may in fact pay for the sins of another as “Christ did on the cross” by “making up for what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ.” — We, too, his body “WORK” for the salvation of those not in his body, or imperfectly in communion.

God bless you, I enjoy your chutzpah very much.
(in spite of the bait and switch comments … eg: the tree and fruit issues…)

I wish I had time to review the thread in detail – but ALAS – Sunday is nearly gone, and time with my family was required as my work of sacrifice today.

Keep the faith, RUN the race to win.

 

[De_Maria]

De Maria.

What a beautiful argument, if confusing.

In baptism, a child is saved – should one argue that “confirmation” requires their later ratification – consider that confirmation IS part of baptism of infants in many rites.

In Baptism, a child is justified. We are saved in Baptism, only as a manner of speaking. We are set aside, made holy.

Even if the babe is confirmed as an infant, he must, as he grows, begin to merit his salvation also:

[837](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/837.htm’) "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. **Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. **He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321

The word in Trent which is so telling – is the assisting grace.

Great word!

Now I don’t pretend to know exactly how the purity of a child is – they may require purgatory to remove whatever the devil has done – but their own internal conscious decision aside (which is Augustine’s dilemma when dealing with the idea of unbaptized infants going to hell… vs. the exorcisms in baptism which clearly show an evil existed which (if not the owner) needed to be removed from the body of even infants…

But, this “assisting” grace – we know, as you have pointed out, that “Faith” is itself a work. The argument is spinning around “whose” work – and in the case of infant baptism it is the “work” of God THROUGH the person who opens their mouth in the words of baptism. “I baptize you, in the name, …” So, although I agree heartily with your opening salvo considering the difference between a “work” and “earning” salvation (which is free) – even in the case of a water baptism on earth (which saves) – a cooperating work is required of the baptizer. We pray “for” each other, we “work” in the fields for a harvest of souls, one person may in fact pay for the sins of another as “Christ did on the cross” by “making up for what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ.” — We, too, his body “WORK” for the salvation of those not in his body, or imperfectly in communion.

God bless you, I enjoy your chutzpah very much.
(in spite of the bait and switch comments … eg: the tree and fruit issues…)

I wish I had time to review the thread in detail – but ALAS – Sunday is nearly gone, and time with my family was required as my work of sacrifice today.

Keep the faith, RUN the race to win.

Thanks!

Whats this about bait and switch? Both the tree and the vine metaphors are relevant in this case but one of them, the vine, shows that even those who are attached to the vine are subject to the rule of works.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[guanophore]

Thanks!

Whats this about bait and switch? Both the tree and the vine metaphors are relevant in this case but one of them, the vine, shows that even those who are attached to the vine are subject to the rule of works.

Sincerely,

De Maria

What is “the rule of works”. Do you mean to say by this that the lives of the faithful are “ruled” by works?

You have previously asserted that works are the “rule” or standard by which we will enter eternal life. I think this is a misrepresentation of the facts.

Jesus taught that we should be ruled by faith. Faith is the means by which we access the grace, and grace is the basis for the works. You have asserted that there is some way in which we can earn or “merit” our justification. I think this muddles the water. Yes, faith is required, the response to God’s grace. However, even our faith is kindled by that grace. There are no works of righteousness that we can do that “merit” eternal life. Our works by grace can bring us into participation into that which we have been placed by grace, but the basis is not our own merit.

 

[BRB]

In Baptism, a child is justified. We are saved in Baptism, only as a manner of speaking. We are set aside, made holy.

Even if the babe is confirmed as an infant, he must, as he grows, begin to merit his salvation also:

Lets explore your ideas regarding MERITING SALVATION … which I also take equates to your definition of WORKS.

Define these two terms you use … and give everyday examples thereof.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

In Baptism, a child is justified. We are saved in Baptism, only as a manner of speaking. We are set aside, made holy.

Hmmm … delicate phrasing here, in agreement —

1Pete 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1Pete 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pete 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Even if the babe is confirmed as an infant, he must, as he grows, begin to merit his salvation also:

Ahhh … sort of grasping at straws, in a disagreement (of sorts) a child does NOT have to grow, he may die an infant – and saved by a baptism worked by christ in others for the child… round and round …

But, not to dispute, but to show the highest scriptural tension …

I think, will find the verse later, that St. Paul speaks of a child given to a pagan and a christian, eg: a saint Augustine type – and he says of the unbaptized child, that the OFFSPRING, is holy. But that does not mean, the child is free of the necessity of the work of baptism… The thought is vague, I know. I’ll hone it a bit later.

 

[JustaServant]

Have you got anything besides opinion to back up your statement?
Sincerely,
De Maria

Yeah, the Catholic Catechism.
I spent 20 years across the Tiber, 14 as a fundamentalist preacher. I know of what I speak.

 

[mikeledes]

Sure it is.

No She doesn’t. The Church teaches that one can’t merit the initial grace of justification by one’s works. However, the Church also teaches that if one doesn’t respond to God’s grace by one’s works, repentance, conversion, then one will not be justified.

CANON IV. If any one shall affirm, that man’s freewill, moved and excited by God, does not, by consenting, cooperate with God, the mover and exciter, so as to** prepare and dispose itself** for the attainment of justification; if moreover, anyone shall say, that the human will cannot refuse complying, if it pleases, but that it is inactive, and merely passive; **let such an one be accursed"! **

CHAPTER V.
On the necessity, in adults, of preparation for Justification, and whence it proceeds. The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient [Page 33] grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you, we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer; Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted, we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God.

The bolded section tells us we are called. The italic section says what we are called to do. We are called to justify ourselves by cooperating with the initial grace of justification.

In other words, we do not merit the initial grace. But we do merit the justification by cooperating with the initial grace.

The grace is not. The justification is a direct result of good works. Those being conversion and repentance.

First of all, when the Church uses the phrase “initial grace of justification,” it is referring to the initial * infusion *of sanctifying grace, not the actual grace that leads to conversion/repentance. You are confusing actual grace - a temorary help - with the initial infusion santifying/ habitual grace (i.e.justification) You are dividing “initial grace” from “justification,” making it two distinct concepts. The Catholic Church also teaches the following:

**The two elements of active justification, forgiveness of sin and sanctification, furnish at the same time the elements of habitual justification, freedom from sin and holiness. According to the Catholic doctrine, however, this freedom from sin and this sanctity are effected, not by two distinct and successive Divine acts, but by a single act of God. For, just as light dispels darkness, so the infusion of sanctifying grace eo ipso dispels from the soul original and mortal sin. (Cf. Trent, sess. VI, can. xi: “Si quis dixerit, homines justificari vel sola imputatione justitiae Christi, vel sola peccatorum remissione, exclusa gratia et caritate, quae in cordibus eorum per Spiritum Sanctum diffundatur atque illis inhaereat. . ., a.s.”) In considering the effects of justification it will be useful to compare the Catholic doctrine of real forgiveness of sin with the Protestant theory that sin is merely “covered” and not imputed. By declaring the grace of justification, or sanctifying grace, to be the only formal cause of justification, the Council of Trent intended to emphasize the fact that in possessing sanctifying grace we possess the whole essence of the state of justification with all its formal effects; that is, we possess freedom from sin and sanctity, and indeed freedom from sin by means of sanctity. Such a remission of sin could not consist in a mere covering or non-imputation of sins, which continue their existence out of view; it must necessarily consist in the real obliteration and annihilation of the guilt. **

**The Council of Trent (l. c. cap. vii), moreover, did not neglect to enumerate in detail the other causes of justification: the glory of God and of Christ as the final cause (causa finalis), the mercy of God as the efficient cause (causa efficiens), the Passion of Christ as the meritorious cause (causa meritoria), the reception of the Sacraments as the instrumental cause (causa instrumentalis). **

newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm

Meritorious works, De Maria, presupposes being in a state of grace, being justified. In other words, meritorious works are the fruits of the infusion of sanctifying grace. Again, you are confusing actual grace and sanctfying grace:

**Since the meritoriousness of good works supposes the state of justification, or, what amounts to the same, the possession of sanctifying grace, supernatural merit is only an effect or fruit of the state of grace (cf. Council of Trent, Sess. VI, cap. xvi). **

newadvent.org/cathen/10202b.htm

Neither the actual grace that precedes repentance and conversion, nor the initial infusion of sanctifying grace (the grace of justification) are merited.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Sorry. But that is also false. We have to do our part. We have to cooperate with that grace.

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity,** we can then merit** for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

Sincerely,

De Maria

The fact that God maintainus us in a state of grace and our merits is not a denial of the cooperation of the will.

Merit, De Maria, depends upon reception of the grace of final perseverance. It does not matter how many good works you do. If you do not receive this grace ( living and dying in a state of grace), your merits will be on no value. The Church clearly teaches that this grace is beyond our meriting power:

**That we can never in this life be certain of our final perseverance is defined by the Council of Trent (Sess. VI, can. xvi): “Si quis magnum illud usque in finem perseverantiae donum se certo habiturum, absoluta et infallibili certitudine dixerit, nisi hoc ex speciali revelatione dedicerit, anathema sit”. What places it beyond our meriting power is the obvious fact that revelation nowhere offers final perseverance, with it retinue of efficacious graces and its crown of a good death, as a reward for our actions, but, on the contrary, constantly reminds us that, as the Council of Trent puts it, “the gift of perseverance can come only from Him who has the power to confirm the standing and to raise the fallen”. **

newadvent.org/cathen/11711a.htm

God Bless,
Michael

 

[BRB]

newadvent.org/cathen/11711a.htm

Amazing concepts contained in the above link …

God working always to inspire, enable the redeemed to obtain final victory. And mankind needing to cooperate, while always able to petition Christ via prayer to protect them til and in that final hour.

Christ will never fail to honor his oath. Will we remain faithful servants, & do what we need to insure our covenant is not abrogated ?

 

[De_Maria]

What is “the rule of works”. Do you mean to say by this that the lives of the faithful are “ruled” by works?

You have previously asserted that works are the “rule” or standard by which we will enter eternal life. I think this is a misrepresentation of the facts.

Not me. God made that rule:
Ezechiel 18
27 And when the wicked turneth himself away from his wickedness, which he hath wrought, and doeth judgment, and justice: he shall save his soul alive.

Jesus taught that we should be ruled by faith.

Faith is a work:
John 6 28 They said therefore unto him: What shall we do, that we may work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered, and said to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent.

Faith is the means by which we access the grace

True. And faith is work.

, and grace is the basis for the works.

Including the basis of faith.

But, faith and the other works are the basis that God established for our salvation. Are you going to argue with that?

You have asserted that there is some way in which we can earn or “merit” our justification.

Not me. The Church:
Chapter V Council of Trent:
The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God,** may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace**

I think this muddles the water.

Not at all. Trying to explain that we participate in our salvation and then claiming that the Church never has taught a salvation of works is what muddies the waters.

Why? Because God has continually said, in Scripture, that He will repay us according to our works.
Jeremias 25
14 For they have served them, whereas they were many nations, and great kings: and I will repay them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their hands.

Yes, faith is required, the response to God’s grace. However, even our faith is kindled by that grace. There are no works of righteousness that we can do that “merit” eternal life.

So you say:

CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2027 (224 bytes ) preview document matches
by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods

Our works by grace can bring us into participation into that which we have been placed by grace, but the basis is not our own merit.

Except that God said so. Who am I to believe?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Lets explore your ideas regarding MERITING SALVATION … which I also take equates to your definition of WORKS.

Define these two terms you use … and give everyday examples thereof.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

***55 This revelation was not broken off by our first parents’ sin. "After the fall, [God] buoyed them up with the hope of salvation, by promising redemption; and he has never ceased to show his solicitude for the human race. For he wishes to give eternal life to all those who seek salvation by patience in well-doing." ***
*Even when he disobeyed you and lost your friendship you did not abandon him to the power of death. . . Again and again you offered a covenant to man.*What is salvation?

God grants eternal life to those whom He has saved. Therefore, salvation is the gateway to eternal life.

In another sense, salvation is itself eternal life. Salvation is sharing the life of God and God’s life is eternal.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Hmmm … delicate phrasing here, in agreement —

Ahhh … sort of grasping at straws, in a disagreement (of sorts) a child does NOT have to grow, he may die an infant – and saved by a baptism worked by christ in others for the child… round and round …

But, not to dispute, but to show the highest scriptural tension …
I think, will find the verse later, that St. Paul speaks of a child given to a pagan and a christian, eg: a saint Augustine type – and he says of the unbaptized child, that the OFFSPRING, is holy. But that does not mean, the child is free of the necessity of the work of baptism… The thought is vague, I know. I’ll hone it a bit later.

I agree. Looking forward to what you will provide.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

First of all, when the Church uses the phrase “initial grace of justification,” it is referring to the initial * infusion *of sanctifying grace,

I don’t think so. I think you’ve misunderstood sanctifying grace. Please point out where “initial grace of justification” is “the infusion of sanctifying grace.”

Sanctifying grace is infused in Baptism.

: CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 1266 (455 bytes ) preview document matches
6 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification: - enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through
URL: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1266.htm

CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 1999 (458 bytes ) preview document matches
our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:
The initial grace of justification refers to God’s call to conversion:
CHAPTER V.
The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, *the beginning *of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace:
history.hanover.edu/early/trent/ct06d1.htm

not the actual grace that leads to conversion/repentance. You are confusing actual grace - a temorary help - with the initial infusion santifying/ habitual grace (i.e.justification)

I don’t think so.

You are dividing “initial grace” from “justification,” making it two distinct concepts. The Catholic Church also teaches the following:

**The two elements of active justification, …****the Passion of Christ **as the meritorious cause (causa meritoria), the reception of the Sacraments as the instrumental cause (causa instrumentalis).

newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm

That is true after Baptism. Baptism is when we receive sanctifying grace.

Meritorious works, De Maria, presupposes being in a state of grace, being justified.

Not so. Thats the whole point that St. Paul was making when he presented Abraham as being justified before the law was established. Abraham merited justification by his works before he was circumcised, before the Law of Moses, and obviously before Baptism.

In other words, meritorious works are the fruits of the infusion of sanctifying grace. Again, you are confusing actual grace and sanctfying grace:

No. I don’t believe that I am.

Since the meritoriousness of good works supposes the state of justification, or, what amounts to the same, the possession of sanctifying grace, supernatural merit is only an effect or fruit of the state of grace (cf. Council of Trent, Sess. VI, cap. xvi).

newadvent.org/cathen/10202b.htm

Is this last part a paraphrase? I couldn’t find it in the page referenced.

Neither the actual grace that precedes repentance and conversion,

No, that one sure isn’t.

nor the initial infusion of sanctifying grace (the grace of justification) are merited.

Yes. That one sure is. It is merited first by repentance, by obedience and then by the cooperation with the grace of God by voluntarily submitting to Baptism.

God Bless,
Michael

You also,

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

The fact that God maintainus us in a state of grace and our merits is not a denial of the cooperation of the will.

Merit, De Maria, depends upon reception of the grace of final perseverance. It does not matter how many good works you do. If you do not receive this grace ( living and dying in a state of grace), your merits will be on no value. The Church clearly teaches that this grace is beyond our meriting power:

**That we can never in this life be certain of our final perseverance is defined by the Council of Trent (Sess. VI, can. xvi): “Si quis magnum illud usque in finem perseverantiae donum se certo habiturum, absoluta et infallibili certitudine dixerit, nisi hoc ex speciali revelatione dedicerit, anathema sit”. What places it beyond our meriting power **is the obvious fact that revelation nowhere offers final perseverance, with it retinue of efficacious graces and its crown of a good death, as a reward for our actions, but, on the contrary, constantly reminds us that, as the Council of Trent puts it, “the gift of perseverance can come only from Him who has the power to confirm the standing and to raise the fallen”.

newadvent.org/cathen/11711a.htm

God Bless,
Michael

This is beside the point Michael. All that is presupposed. God, however, established that those who do not perform good works will not be saved:

Osee 12
2 Therefore there is a judgment of the Lord with Juda, and a visitation for Jacob: he will render to him according to his ways, and according to his devices.

I don’t know if you’ve noticed. But I’ve been quoting these words from every part of the Bible. It is probably the most prevalent teaching in the Bible. God will render to man according to his deeds, works, ways, devices, etc.

God will repay man, God will reward man, God will render to man, etc.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Hi,
I believe the Lord said I have chosen you, you have not chosen me.

Peace, OneNow1,

Yeah. He has chosen us to work.

 

[De_Maria]

I think if you take the time to read my posts, especially in threads of this topic, it will be clear to you that I am not making any effort to “appease Protestants”

Part of the reason they are so hateful is because they don’t understand what the church teaches. That is why it is so important to present it to them in a way that they can understand.

This is what was done in the documents of the council of Trent, which clarify that we are saved by grace, and that there is nothing that we, of ourselves, can do to bring ourselves into a state of justification before God. This is a point of agreement between Catholics and Protestants upon which more can be built.

I’ve been quoting Trent more than even the Catechism.