I’m sorry, but when it says " Let their names be erased from the Book of Life. Do not let them be listed with righteous people. ", I take it to mean that God can erase our names from the Book of Life.I hope you understand the Lord is making a point and it does not say He will or would remove a name from the “book of life”; you must look at the whole of salvation and if you just look at where the “book of life” phrase is used; then you will gain the clear understanding of what our Lord is teaching/saying. You cannot automatically conclude the antithesis to a phrase unless you can show it is taught elsewhere, which it is not. A common mistake, so don’t feel alone, we all make these kinds of mistakes.
I don’t understand how you can say “God is playing tricks” by erasing our names. It’s not God’s Will to erase us, but our choice. When we choose our own personal whims over God, then we effectively remove ourselves from the Book of Life.Revelation 13:8 helps to put it in perspecive, just as the people that are saved were determined before the foundation of the world, this also means they were written in the “book of life” before the foundation of the world just as it is written:
***All who dwell on the earth will worship him, {everyone} whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. ***
I do understand where you are coming from if you are taught you can lose your salvation; it is a shame to be taught that for God is not one to play tricks with His children is He?
God bless,
Beth
God Wills that we all get to heaven. Let me ask you, do we?Yes, I agree from a human and fallible perspective, but not from a godly and spiritual perspective, which is the Biblical perspective. If your religion teaches you that you can lose it, then you must stick to that belief, but God gave the gift for His specific purpose and what He purposes cannot be undone can it?
I understand where you are coming from, but this is a prophet of God begging God to erase names, that if they are the enemy of the Prophet and thus God as well, then they are not written in the book of life. I don’t believe you understand how God saves men, so I won’t press the issue with you; you have beliefs you are taught and you must stick with them.I’m sorry, but when it says " Let their names be erased from the Book of Life. Do not let them be listed with righteous people. ", I take it to mean that God can erase our names from the Book of Life.
If God were the one to erase the name, which is what you claimed earlier and have now caught your error by restating that we now remove our names, yet the quote is from a phrophet asking who to remove it? God or man? See God doesn’t play tricks; you can no more earn your salvation and be saved than one can have salvation and lose it; it is God’s work, His choice, for His purpose. A Christian is just blessed to be apart of the plan of salvation which He purposed and if you look real close at John 17 - see verses 5, 6 & 7 , you will see that the Father made a promise to the Son that there would be a part of humanity that would be given to the Son to worship and glorify Him forever. So the question is, where were you and I when all this was decided?I don’t understand how you can say “God is playing tricks” by erasing our names. It’s not God’s Will to erase us, but our choice. When we choose our own personal whims over God, then we effectively remove ourselves from the Book of Life.
No, he’s not begging God to remove names that were never there. What kind of prayer is that? He’s begging God to remove them from that which was there.I understand where you are coming from, but this is a prophet of God begging God to erase names, that if they are the enemy of the Prophet and thus God as well, then they are not written in the book of life. I don’t believe you understand how God saves men, so I won’t press the issue with you; you have beliefs you are taught and you must stick with them.
I don’t understand how you can say “God is playing tricks” by erasing our names. It’s not God’s Will to erase us, but our choice. When we choose our own personal whims over God, then we effectively remove ourselves from the Book of Life.
No, when I saidIf God were the one to erase the name, which is what you claimed earlier and have now caught your error by restating that we now remove our names, yet the quote is from a phrophet asking who to remove it? God or man? See God doesn’t play tricks; you can no more earn your salvation and be saved than one can have salvation and lose it; it is God’s work, His choice, for His purpose. A Christian is just blessed to be apart of the plan of salvation which He purposed and if you look real close at John 17, you will see that the Father made a promise to the Son that there would be a part of humanity that would be given to the Son to worship and glorify Him forever. So the question is, where were you and I when this was decided?
what I said was, “God erases our names, but it is our actions that cause this erasure. When we turn away from God and choose our own life over one with His, then he grants us our wish and removes us from the Book of Life”t’s not God’s Will to erase us, but our choice. When we choose our own personal whims over God, then we effectively remove ourselves from the Book of Life.
Nobody takes a sinner away from God. The sinner turns away from God on his own. Just as Satan did (although the sinner is allowed to repent.The Christian desires to serve Him, but remember what the Scripture says, the Christian loves God because why? Because He first what? Loved us!! What did Jesus say about whom the Father gives to the Son; who can take them away from the Son? You can’t say you remove yourself from His love as a Christian without contradicting Jesus.
Yes, I am reminded of the last two verses of Romans 8 - For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, nor future things, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Don’t you find it disconcerting that “our own sins” or “our own personal choices” are not included in this list?You must go with what you are taught and what you believe but remeber what the Apostle Paul said in Romans 8.
May God bless you!
Beth
No, in fact only a few do according to Jesus. If God willed, in the context of God “purposed”, all people to be in heaven, then all would be in heaven. Since God does not contradict Himself as men do, then you have a misunderstanding of what God has said. Did God really say He “Willed”, in the context He “purposed” all men to be saved? no. The NAS states it best in my opinion, that translates the term as “desire”.God Wills that we all get to heaven. Let me ask you, do we?
The souls referred to in Heb.10: 29 were sanctified, made holy, by the blood of Christ, yet they lose their salvation as well as their sanctity, by their tragic choices. Once made holy, their standing was righteous before God, and they were worthy of the promises. But they chose to betray Christ in one way or another, not because God’s election was lacking, but because their free choice not to participate in that election after it had been made moved them from the ranks of the just to the ranks of the damned. Jesus is specific in the matter: “Who perseveres to the end will be saved.” (Mk.13:13). We cannot know that we will persevere until the end unless we have reached the end. Belief in Jesus alone does not save us (“the demons also believe and they tremble.” Jas.2:19), but it empowers us to come to salvation (Jn.1:12). Faith without the vitality of charity, the work of loving, profits me nothing (1Cor. 13:2), anf if that charity should cease, then I “having preached to others may myself lose the prize.” If Paul believed that it was possible for himself to be disqualified for eternal life, who am I to say that I am already assured?No, in fact only a few do according to Jesus. If God willed, in the context of God “purposed”, all people to be in heaven, then all would be in heaven. Since God does not contradict Himself as men do, then you have a misunderstanding of what God has said. Did God really say He “Willed”, in the context He “purposed” all men to be saved? no. The NAS states it best in my opinion, that translates the term as “desire”.
1:Tim 2:4 , which you refer to has the context that God “wishes”, not in the context of He “purposed”. For an example of where the word “will” is used in a context to where God has purposed something, then review 1 Corinthians 1:1. This also shows just how much God is in control of men concerning His purpose. There are many many examples of this in both Testaments.
Listen, I am not here to argue with you concerning your beliefs, they are yours, just not mine. It does make me sad that I see most, if not all Catholics that do not get the joy and the peace of knowing and enjoying the security of salvation, but at the same time their is such thing as a false sense of security and that is very tradgic, so perhaps it is better that some do not.
May God Bless you!
Beth
That is not what the passage says or implies.No, he’s not begging God to remove names that were never there. What kind of prayer is that? He’s begging God to remove them from that which was there.
You are back-peddling and just adding more confusion in my opinion; but you believe what you believe. God put the names in the Book of Live before the foundation of the world because it was His purpose; if you believe you can thwart His purpose despite the fact that He says no one can, then that is your understanding.No, when I said what I said was, “God erases our names, but it is our actions that cause this erasure. When we turn away from God and choose our own life over one with His, then he grants us our wish and removes us from the Book of Life”
The sinner has no ability to turn to God in the first place, so that statement contradicts what God has said. “No one seeks after God, no not one”.Nobody takes a sinner away from God. The sinner turns away from God on his own. Just as Satan did (although the sinner is allowed to repent.
I see it as all joy!! The sin is not there because Christ is there and Paul is speaking to Christians, the ones the Father gave to the Son before the foundations of the world; I am happy and thankful!!Yes, I am reminded of the last two verses of Romans 8 - For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, nor future things, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Don’t you find it disconcerting that “our own sins” or “our own personal choices” are not included in this list?
You may not mean to imply, but that is the implication. You are either saved by God or you are saved by some other means; some believe it is God plus them, this is the self-righteousness that Jesus said must be dropped. “Deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow me”. Titus 3:4-7, which I mentioned earlier is one of my very favorite verses in the NT; it is the message of salvation, how it occurs, and it is all because of God. I see that you have in your thoughts the idea of free-will; we do participate in salvation to the extent that we are able to do righteous deeds, but only one once God has changed our nature, which is refered to as the “New Birth”, otherwise left to ourselves in our sin nature all we do is sin in God’s eyes, even when the sin-filled person does “good deeds”.You simply cannot listen to Jesus’ teachings and believe that your own actions (and in-actions) do not affect your Salvation. I don’t mean to imply that we earn our salvation (or damnation), but that our actions are part of our participation in God’s plan for each of us.
I cannot comment much because you are so far from understanding any of the passages and your interpretation; we have no basis for discussion. Good luck in your studies & may God bless you in that endeavor; you have much work to do in my opinion. I will make a couple of comments. Hebrews 10:26-30 is not even remotely refering to a Christian and Paul was not concerned about losing His salvation; he understood that all he had done prior to his conversion by God; he counted as “dung” compared to receiving Christ. Ever heard of rewards in heaven? This is what Paul is speaking about, but I can’t go further; you believe your understanding and I am not about to change it, I can only disagree with it.The souls referred to in Heb.10: 29 were sanctified, made holy, by the blood of Christ, yet they lose their salvation as well as their sanctity, by their tragic choices. Once made holy, their standing was righteous before God, and they were worthy of the promises. But they chose to betray Christ in one way or another, not because God’s election was lacking, but because their free choice not to participate in that election after it had been made moved them from the ranks of the just to the ranks of the damned. Jesus is specific in the matter: “Who perseveres to the end will be saved.” (Mk.13:13). We cannot know that we will persevere until the end unless we have reached the end. Belief in Jesus alone does not save us (“the demons also believe and they tremble.” Jas.2:19), but it empowers us to come to salvation (Jn.1:12). Faith without the vitality of charity, the work of loving, profits me nothing (1Cor. 13:2), anf if that charity should cease, then I “having preached to others may myself lose the prize.” If Paul believed that it was possible for himself to be disqualified for eternal life, who am I to say that I am already assured?
Beth, I can see that we are both just going to go around in circles. But I wish to point out something that I think you are doing. You are focusing in on a verse and using it to influence your belief system. Take the verse, “No one seeks after God, no not one” and using it to say we don’t seek God. Let’s look at the passage from a little broader view.The sinner has no ability to turn to God in the first place, so that statement contradicts what God has said. “No one seeks after God, no not one”.
Then why are you here? You have come into a forum called “Catholic Answers” and proclaimed on your own authority (your own interpretation of the words of Scripture) that the Catholic Church (which wrote and defined and preserved the Scripture) is wrong and that it is tragic that people accept her teaching - and then said, repeatedly, that you are not here to argue. For someone who isn’t here to argue, you’ve posted a pretty substantial number of arguments. . . . .Listen, I am not here to argue with you concerning your beliefs, they are yours, just not mine. It does make me sad that I see most, if not all Catholics that do not get the joy and the peace of knowing and enjoying the security of salvation, but at the same time their is such thing as a false sense of security and that is very tradgic, so perhaps it is better that some do not.
May God Bless you!
Beth
Existentially and logically accurate in my opinion.Ask him what he would say about a protestant minister, say a baptist, who lives a model life of holiness, preaches the gospel, well loved by all etc. etc. He believes in the certainty of his own salvation - and indeed so does everyone who knows him. But then one day suddenly renounces his faith, abandons his wife and family and runs off with his secretary and lives a very sinful life. [This scenario does sometimes happen]
Ask him if he would say this man is saved?
If he says yes, then show him Hebrews 10.26, which rather clearly shows that wanton sin causes there no longer to be a sacrifice for sin: *“If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.” * [NIV]
If he says no, then push him further, and he will have to say that the man’s later conduct demonstrates that he was never really saved in the first place. Then you can ask him, well how can you be completely certain that at some point in the future you may not go off and commit some equally heinous sin, which would prove to the world that you are not really saved? At this point, if he is honest, he will come to admit that he does still have free will, and therefore he could, however slim he may feel the chance to be, choose to turn radically away from God at some point in the future.
The Christian cannot do that; God empowers the person to persevere to the end and which He purposed, which is salvation cannot be undone. Christians can, do and will sin, but it will be the Christians direction to be conformed to Christ throughout the Christians life and so while the Christian may and will sin, he/she will not continue in any particular sin unabated by God. What does the Bible say?1 Corinthians 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption."
Certainly it is by His doing that righteousness, sanctification, and redemption are offered to me. Is it also His doing that I refuse these gifts as some do, or is that my doing? And if I accept them for a time and later refuse them, is that also God’s doing? In denying that I have freely to accept the gifts of God, you make both salvation and condemnation necessary in God rather than contingent upon my free actions in response to God’s grace. God then becomes a monster who refuses to grace some and thereby necessitates their eternal damnation.
I used a verse to make a specific point, not an entire summary of a set of beliefs…LOLBeth, I can see that we are both just going to go around in circles. But I wish to point out something that I think you are doing. You are focusing in on a verse and using it to influence your belief system. Take the verse, “No one seeks after God, no not one” and using it to say we don’t seek God. Let’s look at the passage from a little broader view.
2 The LORD looks down from heaven upon the human race, To see if even one is wise, if even one seeks God. 3 All have gone astray; all alike are perverse. Not one does what is right, not even one.***
Is anyone wise? Does anyone do what is right? According to this verse, no. But we know that is not true, eh?
Read the profile information and you would not need to ask would you? I can see you are a very bitter and angry person on the inside because the Bible states that out of the heart the mouth speaks; so I will pray for you. I am sorry that the Bible is a stumbling block to you and that I have caused you to sin in anger, slander and hatred to another Christian. I assumed a Catholic was a Christian, but you seem to imply otherwise. Also, according to the advice from the greeter; they suggested apologetics where I could meet other Christians and could talk openly about the Bible, but either Catherine or Bob warned me that not all will be Christian.Then why are you here? You have come into a forum called “Catholic Answers” and proclaimed on your own authority (your own interpretation of the words of Scripture) that the Catholic Church (which wrote and defined and preserved the Scripture) is wrong and that it is tragic that people accept her teaching - and then said, repeatedly, that you are not here to argue. For someone who isn’t here to argue, you’ve posted a pretty substantial number of arguments. . . . .
My point being that the Psalmist was speaking in hyperbole. There are some wise, even though the psalmist claims that there are none. There are some people who seek God even though the psalmist claims there aren’t.I used a verse to make a specific point, not an entire summary of a set of beliefs…LOL
That is correct. God raised the veil from Solomon’s eyes and gave him more wisdom than anyone else in the world.That verse is accurate just as God said; not until God removes the veil of blindness and saves a person can one be wise in God’s sight just as the Bible teaches. God promises to the Christian that prays for wisdom and understanding that He will give it in abundance. He also says the Christian has the mind of Christ and it is only because He gave the Son some to be with Him forever so that the Christian would be one with Jesus and with the Father and I’ll add the Holy Spirit.