Salvation for Non-Catholics

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I assume the parties who promote their ideas mean well. One side says what we should do is have the civil government manage and control all aspects of life. The other side says that is a recipe for disaster. Both are sincere I assume.
i think you assume too much, twice in one paragraph;p

you have fallen prey to a logical fallacy, namely: the false dilemma.
wikipedia: a type of logical fallacy that involves a situation in which only two alternatives are considered, when in fact there is at least one additional option.
i like to think that at their best, the dems want only a safety net for the poor, the sick, the young and old, while the repubs want genuinely hard work to be fairly compensated. there is a lot of middle ground between total control from cradle to grave and anarchy.
 
the other thing that i want to mention is that i physically and emphatically can not believe in any gods any better than anyone else could force themselves to believe in unicorns. try it! try to force yourself to believe in unicorns, you can’t do it. and that’s how i feel when i try to believe in god.

i’m not saying that i’m right, or that i think anyone has a ridiculous belief system. i’m not comparing christianity to unicorns, directly. it’s just that until i ride a unicorn down a rainbow, i’m not going to “believe” in unicorns;p and i don’t think that just because the universe exists, that there must then be a god that created it.
This might help regarding the analogy to unicorns and other ostensible beings we cannot see. The portion of this essay which I have in mind begins,

“And you might have ‘over-reacted’ to your discovery too. Consider that story other skeptics love–Santa Claus as the paradigm for the Invisible God…Consider the following parable:”
 
The Bible CLEARLY says that and those who reject that idea are either ignorant or just don’t want to believe it.
this is another false dilemma. and just because the bible says it is so, it does not erase the fact that this is a logical fallacy.
 
i am amazed again at how much people think they understand one another. or maybe this is supposed to be a joke?

anyhow, a lot of posts seem to contradict each other. i can’t even tell if an atheist could go to heaven if they have lived an ethical life?

apparently, some parts of the bible say that it is possible, while other parts state explicitly that only through jesus, or even more specifically through the catholic church, can a person go to heaven. and the other major consensus that i keep seeing is that it doesn’t really matter what people think, because only the christian god knows.

am i getting all of this correctly?

the other thing that i want to mention is that i physically and emphatically can not believe in any gods any better than anyone else could force themselves to believe in unicorns. try it! try to force yourself to believe in unicorns, you can’t do it. and that’s how i feel when i try to believe in god.

i’m not saying that i’m right, or that i think anyone has a ridiculous belief system. i’m not comparing christianity to unicorns, directly. it’s just that until i ride a unicorn down a rainbow, i’m not going to “believe” in unicorns;p and i don’t think that just because the universe exists, that there must then be a god that created it.
At least with unicorns I can enjoy the magical imagination of a child. I can imagine riding the wind on an unicorn.

You can not or will not believe in God. That is fair enough. If you can not believe, that is where a conversation ends. There is no room for maybe, perhaps, what if, what can be learned about the why and purpose of life.

The world of an athiest is restricted to the physical and I will admit that there is much to be learned and much to know about the physical universe. But I have the best of both the physical and the spiritual. I can stand at night at look at the stars that shine in my Western Colorado skies and contemplate their mystery on a physical level and still be able to say “Oh God, Thank You”

Still, I do admire the courage of a militant athiest. Do you believe in unicorns? No, but can you ride the wind on an unicorn anyway?
 
This might help regarding the analogy to unicorns and other ostensible beings we cannot see. The portion of this essay which I have in mind begins,

“And you might have ‘over-reacted’ to your discovery too. Consider that story other skeptics love–Santa Claus as the paradigm for the Invisible God…Consider the following parable:”
omg! a 3rd logical fallacy:
  1. The universe is incredibly absurd, and randomly created these gifts–out of nothing–in my house. There goes the law of conservation of matter and energy. There goes my confidence in the predictability of nature. There goes my confidence in the mathematics that ground statistics–a random event that was that correlated to MY desires is so statistically absurd as to make all the mathematical calculations in the world untrustworthy. All is random…I live in fear for the rest of my life of giant boulders materializing out of thin air over my head on my walk to school–and crushing me; OR
  1. the universe is somehow conscious, panpsychic, and clairvoyant. Somehow the universe read my mind as to what I wanted, and materialized the exact gifts–out of nothing–in my house on the expected day. I guess I am a little bothered by the apparent violation of the conservation of matter/energy, but nothing like the terror I now feel that the universe is alive, can read my thoughts, and has the power to materialize solid objects whenever it so chooses! What if it decided to make a giant boulder over my head tomorrow on my walk to school and crush me to death–oh, no–and it just read my mind about it, and knows how scared I am…I had better start finding ways to keep it from hurting me…would a sacrifice pacify you, O Cosmos? Perhaps my best gerbil? (Make a red rock appear if YES, a blue one if NO)…
i must admit that after reading this twice, i am still missing the point. i tried reading your link, and it’s a WOT. maybe i need to have a nap and a cup and try again.
 
You can not or will not believe in God. That is fair enough. If you can not believe, that is where a conversation ends.
i think this where a conversation could begin. why did your god make me spiritually unfit?
 
this is another false dilemma. and just because the bible says it is so, it does not erase the fact that this is a logical fallacy.
I probably didn’t say it right. I meant that the Bible clearly says that and those Christians who reject that idea and say that it is still up to God even though HE clearly tells us you MUST believe in him are either ignorant or just don’t want to believe it.
 
i think this where a conversation could begin. why did your god make me spiritually unfit?
Are you spiritually unfit? I wouldn’t want to make a judgement like that.

You are on a journey and who knows how fit you are and how far you will go.
 
i think this where a conversation could begin. why did your god make me spiritually unfit?
I wrote a response to you saying God made you an atheist earlier. Did you read it? I’m not going to type it up again because it is on the same thread but God did not make you “spiritually unfit”
 
I probably didn’t say it right. I meant that the Bible clearly says that and those Christians who reject that idea and say that it is still up to God even though HE clearly tells us you MUST believe in him are either ignorant or just don’t want to believe it.
so, and let me follow you clearly: because i’m a taoist and an atheist, i still have a chance of going to heaven because i am NOT a christian?
 
omg! a 3rd logical fallacy:

i must admit that after reading this twice, i am still missing the point. i tried reading your link, and it’s a WOT.
The way I read that excerpt, Glenn Miller was using absurd argumentation to make his audience think.
maybe i need to have a nap and a cup and try again.
Those sound like good ideas (not meant in an insulting fashion). I might follow suit… but I haven’t acquired a taste for coffee 😛
 
so, and let me follow you clearly: because i’m a taoist and an atheist, i still have a chance of going to heaven because i am NOT a christian?
You are trying to carry on three maybe four conversations at once with three or four people who have differing views. I will bow out of this conversation. It would be interesting though to carry on a conversation with you. But overlapping and contradicting answers will surely be a fruitless endeavor for all.
 
oh sweet canadians. i would totally defect to your country if it weren’t so FREAKIN! COLD!!!
i was born in miami so i’m biologically biased;p
Haha. Have you considered the coastal area of British Columbia, especially Vancouver? It’s generally less cold than the rest of Canada–especially Manitoba and Saskatchewan.
 
So would it therefore be fair to say that at least some Christians believe, that if Hitler in his last moments of life was truly repentant and accepted Jesus into his heart, then he would be forgiven and go to heaven, while his six million innocent victims would not go to heaven because they were Jews? 🤷
Catholics believe that we do not know the fate of individual souls. If we were to hazzard a guess on Hitler’s place in eternity he does not have much of a chance of escaping eternal damnation, but we don’t know for sure. He was the enemy of God, the enemy of religion, the enemy of life. He targeted Jews and others for destruction.

We believe Jesus offered His life as sacrifice for all mankind. The animal sacrifices of the Levitical priesthood prefigured that of Christ the eternal high priest. He told His followers to take up our crosses and follow Him, become sacrifice. If we do not He says we are not worthy of Him, fit to be His disciples, followers.

The short version of what this means is I have to be willing to give my life for your salvation, or any of the six million Jews Hitler killed, or a person I would by nature hate, my enemy and yours.

He commands us to love our enemies.

Regarding Jews and the death of Jesus we believe He died to redeem us from sin. So it is my sins that caused His passion and death. The Jews and Roman soldiers were my agents. They acted on my behalf. I caused it, but so did you. We are in the same boat.

We believe there is a heaven, a place where joy is so great that we can not imagine it. We believe there is a hell, a place where the pain is so great we can not imagine it. Both are eternal. The prospect of hell is so horrible that we could not wish it on anyone. We beg God for mercy for all including those who hate us.

Our sins, the evil we all do can not be forgiven by God unless we forgive others.

We see the religion of the Jews as true religion, as opposed to Islam, Hinduism, etc. We believe the God of all creation revealed Himself to the Jews in a series of covenants and miracles made by God between real historical people who ALL were Jews, not only for their good, but for the eventual good of all mankind. Salvation is of the Jews. Jesus said that.

These convenants God made are expanding in scope. The first is with a man and a woman. The next is with Noah and family. The next is with Abraham and his clan. The next is with twelve tribes. The next with David and the nation of Israel. The final is with all mankind, but it all comes through the Jews and they are all connected.

The apostle Paul wrote that in the end all Israel will be saved. I don’t know what that means. What I hope it means is that every single Jew who ever lived ends up in heaven. We hope and pray for mercy for all.

Whenever we confront Infinity we encounter mystery, things that are beyond our finite minds ability to comprehend. This means we can not understand everything God does. It does not mean we can have no understanding at all. It means we can not understand everything. There are things that are beyond us. Jesus said to His apostles, “There is much I would like to tell you, but you can not bear it yet”. Our understanding has limitations.

The holocaust is a mystery. I speculate that it conformed the Jewish people to the image of Christ crucified. It made them like Him, acceptable sacrifice, pleasing to God. It made those who are His people by blood, participants in His redemptive work, the mystery of salvation. This is my wild speculation. I do not know this for certain. It is only findable in mystery. “In the end all Israel will be saved”.

We do believe in deathbed conversions. I know personally of some that seemed miraculous, one of a man who was an atheist all his life. Only God can judge the soul. Only God knows the secret of a soul. If you repent of your sins God can not not forgive you. He can not refuse mercy to a penitent soul. This is part of the covenant, the promise God made.

In these covenants God swears an oath in His holy name. This covenant He made to forgive us our sins is made in the blood of Christ, His self-sacrifice. There He is saying I swear in my own blood that I will not refuse you mercy if you turn from your sins. If you repent and God refuses you mercy it makes Him a liar.

This is prefigured in the sacrifice of animals established by Moses. The guilt and consequences of the sin of the Jew was transferred to the animal. The ritual sacrifice of the animal whose blood was poured out on the altar atoned for the sin of the Jew. The blood of the lamb without blemish painted on the door with the hyssop branch kept the death angel from the Jews.

At the Passover the Jews at the flesh of the sacrificed lamb. They broke bread and drank four cups of the wine of the Passover meal…

The blood of Christ our sacrifice atones for all of our sins, IF we ask for forgiveness and repent. His blood is not on the doors of our houses. It is the wine of the new and everlasting covenant and it is on our lips. It is all findable in the mystery of faith.
 
Jesus died for everyone. But only few accept/believe that.
Exactly. So if Jesus died for the sins of everyone the Jews are also part of Salvation.

The Church teaches that there are many mystery’s to God and how and what he does. We can never truly know his mind because we do not have the mind of Christ.

It is a mystery that may or may not be revealed in our lifetime, it is up to God. But somehow the Jews are indeed a part of the mystery of our Church. And are somehow included in it.

We know this to be true because there is a spiritual tie that links the People of the New Covenant ot the stock of Abraham.

The Holy scripture tells us that Jerusalem did not recognize God’s moment when it came.

But Saint Paul also tells us that the Jews remain very dear to God for the sake of the patriarchs, since God does not take back the gifts he bestowed or the choice he made.

Do you see what I am saying.

The Church awaits the day know only to God alone when ALL people will call on One God with one voice and serve him shoulder to shoulder.

The Jews will come back to God, it is happening more and more every single day. There are more Jews in the Church today then yesterday, There will be more next year and the year after.

Someday they will al come back to the Church and we will all be one.

Read what ST Paul said about the wild olive shoot.

If some of the branches were broken off (They were intentionally broken off by God) and you a wild olive shoot were grafted in thier place to share the richness of the olive tree.

The ones broken off were the Jews who rejected Jesus are outside of the Church.

So if this was part of God’s plan, and he had broken some off, can he not incorporate them back in?

We are taught to be careful in seeing our faith as superiority over the Jews. Remember they did that to us once also.

And even the others if they do not persist in thier unbelief will be grafted in for Gods has the power to graft them IN AGAIN.

For if you have been cut from what is by nature a WILD olive tree (that is us) and grafted contrary to nature into a cutivated olive branch. How muchmore will these Natural branches be grafted back into thie OWN olive tree. (that is the Jews)

This leads us to believe that the promise is that when the Jews return to the fullness of the faith which is the Church they will be grafted back into what has always been thier own native root, ( they will come home to the Church) and the result will be doubly graced.

That is why it says

Lest you be wise in your own conceits I want you to UNDERSTAND this MYSTERY brethren a hardening has come upon Israel until the FULL number of Gentile COME IN.

Do you see it now. St Paul says thier refusal to accept Christ was for our sake.

Look how in the beginning the gentiles were disobedient to God, but have received mercy because of the disobedience of the Jews.

So they have disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to YOU they also may receive mercy.

Fo God has cosigned all men to disobedinece that he may have mercy upon ALL.

Does any of this make sense to you?
 
I think most everyone wants to make things better. The question is how do we know what to do that will make things better. I can not attribute evil intent to anyone. In politics there are polar opposites in views or agendas on what to do to make the future better. I assume the parties who promote their ideas mean well. One side says what we should do is have the civil government manage and control all aspects of life. The other side says that is a recipe for disaster. Both are sincere I assume.

Saying the object of life is to do things to make the world a better place is simplistic. You can’t do good unless you know what good is. You have to know how to do a thing if you hope to accomplish it.

There are unintended consequences to actions if we don’t know how to achieve the goal we seek. People individually and collectively make mistakes, but have nothing but the best of intentions. Not everyone has good intentions. Some people plot evil, but even those who hope to do good often end up making messes.

No one gets married saying I hope this marriage ends up in hatred and divorce. But that happens. The good intention requires the ability to accomplish the goal. In the spiritual life this ability is knowledge that comes through faith, and God’s help, or grace.
There are parts of what you say that I agree with. It is true that since we are of different faiths, we may have different criteria for evaluating what doing good means. For Jewish people, the guideline is found in the studying and application of Torah and the interpretations of Torah teaching found in the Talmud. For Catholics, the guideline is in the teachings of Jesus found in the Gospels and the Canon Law of the Church. For other faiths, there are undoubtedly somewhat different criteria and guidelines. Nonetheless, the common effort of all people, regardless of their specific faith, in striving to behave in morally correct ways by means of good deeds and charity toward their neighbors is what we are potentially able to share. My view–and that of Judaism–is that this morally right action, whichever particular form it may take, is what ultimately re-creates a better world. Why is such a re-creation needed at all? According to Jewish belief, G-d intentionally created a slightly imperfect world so that we humans might repair it and, in so doing, become more loving, holier, and closer to G-d and His will.
 
There are parts of what you say that I agree with. It is true that since we are of different faiths, we may have different criteria for evaluating what doing good means. For Jewish people, the guideline is found in the studying and application of Torah and the interpretations of Torah teaching found in the Talmud. For Catholics, the guideline is in the teachings of Jesus found in the Gospels and the Canon Law of the Church. For other faiths, there are undoubtedly somewhat different criteria and guidelines. Nonetheless, the common effort of all people, regardless of their specific faith, in striving to behave in morally correct ways by means of good deeds and charity toward their neighbors is what we are potentially able to share. My view–and that of Judaism–**is that this morally right action, whichever particular form it may take, is what ultimately re-creates a better world. **Why is such a re-creation needed at all? According to Jewish belief, G-d intentionally created a slightly imperfect world so that we humans might repair it and, in so doing, become more loving, holier, and closer to G-d and His will.
On this friend, you speak my mind.
 
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