Salvation for Non-Catholics

[grandfather]

There are parts of what you say that I agree with. It is true that since we are of different faiths, we may have different criteria for evaluating what doing good means. For Jewish people, the guideline is found in the studying and application of Torah and the interpretations of Torah teaching found in the Talmud. For Catholics, the guideline is in the teachings of Jesus found in the Gospels and the Canon Law of the Church. For other faiths, there are undoubtedly somewhat different criteria and guidelines. Nonetheless, the common effort of all people, regardless of their specific faith, in striving to behave in morally correct ways by means of good deeds and charity toward their neighbors is what we are potentially able to share.

 

[grandfather]

Makko52;9286212:

Agreed! The Bible doesn’t belong to the Catholic Church, no matter how bad it’s members want to believe that it does.

History says you are wrong.

 

[batman1973]

batman1973;9288365:

History says you are wrong.

True. The Bible once did belong to the CC. Not anymore. It belongs to God, and His people.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Makko52;9286212:

Agreed! The Bible doesn’t belong to the Catholic Church, no matter how bad it’s members want to believe that it does.

Where were Protestants when the NT was written? When its contents were decided? Who preserved it by laboriously copying it by hand by candlelight over and over again for 1500 years? Where were Protestants for the first 1500 years of Christianity – and later? Many ecclesial communities look to the 19th and 20th century in the U.S.A. as their beginning date. Luther purloined the Scriptures, separating them from their source, making them stand alone, and making every individual his own interpreter. But God entrusted the Christian Scriptures to the Church. No Church, no NT, and no Bible. It’s historical fact.

The NT was written by Catholics, for Catholics, in the heart of the believing, teaching Church, and can only be understood correctly in that context.

I don’t criticize Protestants personally for not knowing the history of where we got the Bible. I didn’t know it either for all the years that I was a Protestant.

The link for online access to a little book that gives the history of the Bible is not working for some reason, but it’s available cheap from Catholic Answers and from Amazon: Where We Got the Bible by Henry G. Graham.

 

[batman1973]

batman1973;9288365:

Where were Protestants when the NT was written? When its contents were decided? Who preserved it by laboriously copying it by hand by candlelight over and over again for 1500 years? Where were Protestants for the first 1500 years of Christianity – and later? Many ecclesial communities look to the 19th and 20th century in the U.S.A. as their beginning date. Luther purloined the Scriptures, separating them from their source, making them stand alone, and making every individual his own interpreter. But God entrusted the Christian Scriptures to the Church. No Church, no NT, and no Bible. It’s historical fact.

The NT was written by Catholics, for Catholics, in the heart of the believing, teaching Church, and can only be understood correctly in that context.

I don’t criticize Protestants personally for not knowing the history of where we got the Bible. I didn’t know it either for all the years that I was a Protestant.

The link for online access to a little book that gives the history of the Bible is not working for some reason, but it’s available cheap from Catholic Answers and from Amazon: Where We Got the Bible

by Henry G. Graham.

First, The NT was NOT written by, or for Catholics. That is not fact. The NT was compiled by the Catholic church. But, God never intended for His Word to belong to one group. If anything good came from the Reformation, is that it freed the Word from the literal chains that kept it to the pulpits and into the hands of man, as it was intended. I think its kinda funny (in a sad way) that catholics want to try and remind protestants where the bible came from, but then admit a real lack of understanding of the book, If it’s yours, as you claim, you should know it better than I.
Sorry if this hurts feelings and seems uncharitable, but it’s the truth,

 

[grandfather]

grandfather;9288830:

True. The Bible once did belong to the CC. Not anymore. It belongs to God, and His people.

It comes from God. Right?

It is of the Catholic Church. It always will be. It is established by the authority given by God to His Church. That can never change. But when do you think it happened that the Bible stopped being Catholic? Did God break His promise to His Church at some time?

 

[grandfather]

Jim Dandy;9289139:

First, The NT was NOT written by, or for Catholics. That is not fact.

Next you will try to tell me it was written by Baptists or Lutherans.

The NT was compiled by the Catholic church. But, God never intended for His Word to belong to one group.

Where does it say that in the Bible?

If anything good came from the Reformation, is that it freed the Word from the literal chains that kept it to the pulpits and into the hands of man, as it was intended. I think its kinda funny (in a sad way) that catholics want to try and remind protestants where the bible came from, but then admit a real lack of understanding of the book, If it’s yours, as you claim, you should know it better than I.
Sorry if this hurts feelings and seems uncharitable, but it’s the truth,

/

It is an unfounded opinion.

 

[meltzerboy]

meltzerboy;9288343:

Your view is correcty. If we live moral lives good will come of it. We do not know how to do that or what moral lives are without divine revelation. The commandments were revealed to the Jews, not concocted by men. We did not figure it out. We were told.

Today we have nothing but confusion over morality. Think of what Mr. Obama did this week. We no longer know what is moral, because we have rejected the giver of the law and His laws.

You are right.

I never heard that before. It sounds like speculation at best and probably is heresy. God makes nothing imperfect. The world is not slightly imperfect. It is a huge mess and we made it. If the goal is to improve it, we are not on track.

Maybe imperfect is the wrong word; incomplete might be better.

 

[batman1973]

batman1973;9289187:

Jim Dandy;9289139:

Next you will try to tell me it was written by Baptists or Lutherans.

Nope. But, it wasn’t written by Catholics. The Old Testament was written or compiled long before then by men moved by God The NT was a compilations of writings by the Apostles or their scribes.(It says it in the Bible. Read it, you’ll see it) The CC compiled the book around 397 A.D.

Where does it say that in the Bible?
That there is a statement that shows you’ve either never read the Bible, or read it that much. But, rather than me telling you, your assignment, if your choose to accept it,is to read the Word and find it yourself. It’s in there.

It is an unfounded opinion.

Not unfounded, but, yes, it is my opinion

 

[pablope]

Makko52;9286212:

Agreed! The Bible doesn’t belong to the Catholic Church, no matter how bad it’s members want to believe that it does.

Yeah…right…and continue misusing it…for creating doctrines and cults…and schisms and splits…which history attests has occurred, continue to occur, and will occur…without the proper protection and guidance of the Church that wrote it.

 

[pablope]

Residual from Mormonism?

That is not fact.

According to whom? Do you have the authority to declare such?

The NT was compiled by the Catholic church.

Correct…to be used for the Mass, not to extract doctrine, create cults and cause splits.

But, God never intended for His Word to belong to one group.

Actually, God intended only there to be only one Church…not several thousand denominations…God never intended there to be Lutherans, methodists, etc…

If anything good came from the Reformation, is that it freed the Word from the literal chains that kept it to the pulpits and into the hands of man, as it was intended.

Let me ask you…is splitting the will of God? Is causing division of the Church the will of God?

If not…then is the split caused by the Reformation the will of God?

I think its kinda funny (in a sad way) that catholics want to try and remind protestants where the bible came from,

It is a historical fact…so why are you bothered by it?

but then admit a real lack of understanding of the book, If it’s yours, as you claim, you should know it better than I.

Really…catholics do not understand it? Or is it your private interpretation that is causing all the confusion…started by your grandfather…Luther?

Sorry if this hurts feelings and seems uncharitable, but it’s the truth,

The truth according to Batman1973.

 

[PJM]

=chosen people;9282921]Let’s break this down: Do some Christians believe that if Hitler in the moments before his death was truly repentant and accepted Jesus into his heart, that he would have been forgiven? if so, is this forgiveness automatic for any Christian regardless of past actions or only a possibility?

I SUSPECT THAT BY true NECESSITY AND DEVINE JUSTICE IT’S MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT

God being both Perfectly “Fair” and “Just” MUST judge us based on 1. What He HAS made possible for us to know; not merely what WE choose to accept and believe 2. on what Opportunities He HAS made available for actual Confession and “repentance and conversion” WHILE WE COULD make that decission. Acts.3: 19 “Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,”

This accounts in GREAT part; why God alone can make the judgment.

Matt.4: 17 "From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Mark.1: 4 "John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel.”

Only God can know if those who have frely chosen to pass on granted GRACE and opportunity can and will be accpted at the Moment of death.

God Bless,
pat/PJM

 

[PJM]

=Kristin234;9285334]God tells us that we must believe in Him and we must be born again in order to be saved. God tells us that those who believe in Him are free from condemnation and that those who do not believe in Him are already condemned.

People can say that it doesn’t matter what people think and that only God knows and God can save whoever He wants, but the thing is…HE tells us who He will save and HE tells us the ONLY way He will save us.

It is clear as night and day. You believe in Jesus Christ = You will be saved. You reject Jesus Christ = you will not be saved.

The Bible CLEARLY says that and those who reject that idea are either ignorant or just don’t want to believe it. You cannot say God does indeed say that and then say He can still save anyone He wants even if they don’t believe in Jesus. If that is how it is then God would be a liar because He would be going against His Word. My God is not a liar so I will believe His Word.

No, dear freind; your I FEAR [with biblical backup] don’t KNOW

The One INFALLIBLE RULE for correct Understanding of the Bible is NEVER-EVER can [does if correctly understood] One passage negate or make void another theaching

John 3: 5 “Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” [36] He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.”

***Matt.19: 17 “If you would enter life, keep the commandments." ***

2Cor.9: 13 “Under the test of this service, you will glorify God by your obedience in acknowledging the gospel of Christ, and by the generosity of your contribution for them and for all others;”

Salvation is a PROCESS; you have accted teachings of Mortal men over God’s Own.

God Bless you,
pat/PJM

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Jim Dandy;9289139:

First, The NT was NOT written by, or for Catholics. That is not fact. The NT was compiled by the Catholic church. But, God never intended for His Word to belong to one group. If anything good came from the Reformation, is that it freed the Word from the literal chains that kept it to the pulpits and into the hands of man, as it was intended. I think its kinda funny (in a sad way) that catholics want to try and remind protestants where the bible came from, but then admit a real lack of understanding of the book, If it’s yours, as you claim, you should know it better than I.
Sorry if this hurts feelings and seems uncharitable, but it’s the truth,

Fact: the sacred authors of the NT were members of the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of the world – the 2,000-year-old Catholic Church. To whom do you claim they were writing? To the Two-Seed-In-The-Spirit Predestinatian Baptists (originated 1826)? And to the Evangelical Presbyterians (originated 1981)?

Two of the criteria used by the Catholic Church in selecting the writings to be included in her collection of sacred Scriptures – a collection she named the New Testament – was that a writing had to have been read aloud during the liturgy of the Church, and it had to comport with her teachings. Those writings which did not reflect the teachings of the Church were not accepted into the canon.

Protestants have misinterpreted the NT from the very beginning of their existence in the 16th century. Two of the doctrines that form the “pillars of Protestantism” – Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide – are not biblical. The “real lack of understanding” is on the part of Protestants, and accounts for the thousands of conflicting and competing Protestant denominations in existence today – and counting.

Bibles were chained to prevent their removal from Churches, so that they would remain accessible to the few people who could read. These were voluminous, handwritten Bibles, whose pages were animal skins, and every one of them cost about three years’ wages to produce. The chain was to safeguard them for the people, not keep them from the people. It’s the same principle banks follow today by chaining pens to their counters. Please read the history of the Bible written by trained, accredited, peer reviewed historians – or at least by someone who is well-educated in the subject. Your sources have not served you well.

Peace be with you.

Jim Dandy
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

 

[grandfather]

grandfather;9288821:

Maybe imperfect is the wrong word; incomplete might be better.

The idea that God made something imperfect or incomplete, left something undone for us to finish is not compatible with our common heritage or patrimony. Christians accept the story or creation and fall from grace that comes from the Jews.

God made everything that exists and it was good. Then things got broken. Of all the people in the world, God chose the Jews to bring salvation, redemption, restoration to the entire world.

 

[meltzerboy]

meltzerboy;9289429:

The idea that God made something imperfect or incomplete, left something undone for us to finish is not compatible with our common heritage or patrimony. Christians accept the story or creation and fall from grace that comes from the Jews.

God made everything that exists and it was good. Then things got broken. Of all the people in the world, God chose the Jews to bring salvation, redemption, restoration to the entire world.

But doesn’t that make the world “incomplete”? Otherwise, why did G-d need the Jews, or anyone else, to bring redemption and restoration to the world? This is consistent with Jewish teaching, which does not believe in original sin and the fall from grace. The challenge to mankind was there from the beginning. Creating an incomplete (instead of imperfect) world is, however, itself the ultimate good because it gives us a mission, a goal to make the world a more fit place to live for all. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on this particular point.

 

[1voice]

Will non-Catholic Christians make it to heaven? If so, how will this happen?

Will Jews, God’s chosen for the first covenant, make it to heaven? If so, why? If not, why not?

If Jesus Christ founded one true Church, what happens to those who are outside of it?

What are pre and post Vatican II views on this?

Please show me references, I hear different things from different people and I want at least some sort of official straight answer, if there even is one.

In order to accept the fact that people outside of the Catholic religion can go to heaven one would have to accept the fact that they are true Christians.

Many Catholics believe that Catholicism = the only true Christianity.

Many Catholics also believe that God leads the only true Church exclusively through the Catholic hierarchy.
Given those assumptions on the part of many Catholics … It would be impossible to present a case for the salvation for non Catholics that would be accepted by someone with those preconceptions.

That said…
Protestantism has made an important contribution to the realization of Christian faith, fulfilling a positive function in the development of the Christian message and, above all, often giving rise to a sincere and profound faith in the individual non-Catholic Christian, whose separation from the Catholic affirmation has nothing to do with the pertinacia characteristic of heresy.
…Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, The Meaning of Christian Brotherhood, pp. 87-88

 

[1voice]

grandfather;9291572:

Creating an incomplete (instead of imperfect) world is, however, itself the ultimate good because it gives us a mission, a goal to make the world a more fit place to live for all.

“All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags”

Isaiah 64:6

Who can bring what is pure from the impure?
No one!
Job 14:4

 

[grandfather]

grandfather;9291572:

But doesn’t that make the world “incomplete”? Otherwise, why did G-d need the Jews, or anyone else, to bring redemption and restoration to the world? This is consistent with Jewish teaching, which does not believe in original sin and the fall from grace. The challenge to mankind was there from the beginning. Creating an incomplete (instead of imperfect) world is, however, itself the ultimate good because it gives us a mission, a goal to make the world a more fit place to live for all. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on this particular point.

The creation was made perfectly. It is being restored to prefection. God dis not and does not need the Jews or anyone else. God is infinite. He lacks nothing. He could restore the world and mankind to perfection in any number of ways. I believe I can show why He chose the way He did, using the Jews, the prophets, and messiah, but it would take a long time to develop the story and it would probably not lead to agreement anyway.

Again if our job is to make the world better we are blowing it. Mankind is getting worse, more depraved, violent, greedy, addicted, etc.

The story of the fall from grace is in your scripture. Saying you do not believe it is your buisness, but I don’t see how that is possible, given that it is your story. Of course I think we should be trying to make the world a better place. That is only possible if we know what to do to accomplish it.

Aristotle said man could improve his lot through politics. He was wrong. History demonstrates that a thousand times.

Where does the voice originate that says we should not lie to one another, cheat and steal, and respect one another’s property and families? It is religion. Did we figure it out on our own? No, Moses came down from the mountain with the moral code. It was revealed.

Suppose you are right. The purpose we are given life by God and put here is to improve things. I agree by the way, but there is more to it. How do you know this to be so? It is from your religion. Where did that come from? God.

God will restore the world to His perfection and we are supposed to cooperate with Him in His work. We do this by sacrifice.

 

[grandfather]

Sorry for all the typos. I was trying to cook dinner and type.

meltzerboy;9291601:

The creation was made perfectly. It is being restored to prefection. God dis not and does not need the Jews or anyone else. God is infinite. He lacks nothing. He could restore the world and mankind to perfection in any number of ways. I believe I can show why He chose the way He did, using the Jews, the prophets, and messiah, but it would take a long time to develop the story and it would probably not lead to agreement anyway.

Again if our job is to make the world better we are blowing it. Mankind is getting worse, more depraved, violent, greedy, addicted, etc.

The story of the fall from grace is in your scripture. Saying you do not believe it is your buisness, but I don’t see how that is possible, given that it is your story. Of course I think we should be trying to make the world a better place. That is only possible if we know what to do to accomplish it.

Aristotle said man could improve his lot through politics. He was wrong. History demonstrates that a thousand times.

Where does the voice originate that says we should not lie to one another, cheat and steal, and respect one another’s property and families? It is religion. Did we figure it out on our own? No, Moses came down from the mountain with the moral code. It was revealed.

Suppose you are right. The purpose we are given life by God and put here is to improve things. I agree by the way, but there is more to it. How do you know this to be so? It is from your religion. Where did that come from? God.

God will restore the world to His perfection and we are supposed to cooperate with Him in His work. We do this by sacrifice.