Salvation for Non-Catholics

[PJM]

=z0wb13;9281418]well, the main reason that i don’t accept jesus is that i don’t believe in the supernatural. so ghosts and fairies and all other mythology are just that to me.

now, if christians, specifically catholics,were right all along, then i’m supposed to die and float up, figuratively, to be judged, literally, i guess by saint peter, but really it could be anything, even a dragon, “because anything is possible with the Mercy of God.”

but my point is that i’m honestly not close-minded. if santa claus came down my chimney on chirstmas, i would immediately start “believing” in flying reindeer and his naughty/nice list and all the rest of it. just like if i get to the afterlife, it would be irrefutable that an afterlife exists, and i would probably be much more responsive to the christian message. but it won’t, so i don’t.

i don’t think that the existence of the universe PROVES that your god exists. it could just as easily be “proven” that any other god created the universe. it could have been a giant hippo god. but i think that it is much simpler to believe that there are no gods, and no miracles, and that’s actually what my religion teaches, so you kind of have to respect that as per the forum’s rules;p

so but if you are right, and your god made me, why did he make me an atheist? why didn’t he give me the tools to turn off the part of brain that stops me from believing in the impossible? why did your cruel god damn me to hell by making me this way?

thanks for answering, these are still real questions;p

So let me ask you my friend. How do you explain your mind [not brain]; Intellect [not IQ]; and your “freewill.” Which are attached to our souls [for this discussion that which annimates life].

Qunatify for me your “freewill”. What is its size, weight, shape and color?

Why can’t you? Because while every human person has these; they; like God are “Spiritual Things” They can’t be killed or die and it is this “our other selfs” that spend Eternity in the location of our choice.

WOW! You REALLY want to deny God. There can be ONLY “One First Cause”…ONLY ONE… that’s the ONE we call “our God” AMEN!

God did “MAKE YOU!”…BUT God did not make you an athesit. You did that by yourself not using correctly the grace offered to you and your SPIRITUAL Gifts as god wnats you [us] too.

**Isa.43 Verses 7and 21: **“every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made." AND the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.”

Isaiah was a Prophet that lived About 700 years B4 Christ.
God bless you,
pat/PJM

 

[PumpkinSeed]

Let me ask you this, and think about what I am saying okay?

Okay you believe that Protestants can get into heaven because they accept Jesus. Okay now I agree with you.

But let me turn this around on you just for a minute. Did Jesus die on the cross for the sins of every single person? Or only for the people who see him in the fullness of the Trinity which is the fullness of God.

Because if Jesus only died for those who accept him in the fullness of the faith, then it would be fair to say Jesus did not die for the sins of the Jews only Christians? Right?

Please don’t think I am trying to put words in your mouth. I am only trying to show you another way of seeing this.

We are taught that the Church is a mystery. And the Church acknowledges that in Gods plan of salvation the beginnings of its faith and election are to be found in the partriarch Moses and the Prophets.

In Gal 3:7 It does say all Christs faithful who as people of faith are daughters and sons of Abraham are included in the same patriarchs call and that salvation of the church is MYSTICALLY PREFIGURED in the exodus of Gods chosen people from the land of bondage.

So what I am saying I believe that there is someway they are tied to Christ and his Church. Can’t tell ya how, or why, But just thats its the word of God.

Jesus died for everyone. But only few accept/believe that.

 

[chosen_people]

Of course protestants can make it into heaven. As for the Jews, I’m not sure. Jesus said the only way is through him.

So would it therefore be fair to say that at least some Christians believe, that if Hitler in his last moments of life was truly repentant and accepted Jesus into his heart, then he would be forgiven and go to heaven, while his six million innocent victims would not go to heaven because they were Jews?

 

[Publisher]

So would it therefore be fair to say that at least some Christians believe, that if Hitler in his last moments of life was truly repentant and accepted Jesus into his heart, then he would be forgiven and go to heaven, while his six million innocent victims would not go to heaven because they were Jews?

For me…that’s one of the mysteries of God’s mercy and forgiveness…It’s deeper than we can concieve of…plus He as a Just Judge would take all things into account…and weigh things we have no concept of nor could concieve…for me…I leave Hitler and his victims who died in the Holocaust in His Hands of mercy and grace…I believe God gives us what we need…not necessarily what we deserve…He makes all things right…even though we cannot fathom the depth of His mercy, grace and love.

Who knows how He would reconcile and comfort those whos lives were ripped from them so cruely…He is Comfort and Mercy itself.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

So would it therefore be fair to say that at least some Christians believe, that if Hitler in his last moments of life was truly repentant and accepted Jesus into his heart, then he would be forgiven and go to heaven, while his six million innocent victims would not go to heaven because they were Jews?

Notice in my post I say “I’m not sure”.

Jesus said the only way was through him. That’s all I know of what he said about it. Take it up with him.

 

[PJM]

=PumpkinSeed;9282850]Notice in my post I say “I’m not sure”.

Jesus said the only way was through him. That’s all I know of what he said about it. Take it up with him.

Chrsitians maybe… Catholics NO!

Hitler by the way was reportedly a catholic. Could He have repented? SURE. Let’s allow God to do HIS JOB!

 

[chosen_people]

For me…that’s one of the mysteries of God’s mercy and forgiveness…It’s deeper than we can concieve of…plus He as a Just Judge would take all things into account…and weigh things we have no concept of nor could concieve…for me…I leave Hitler and his victims who died in the Holocaust in His Hands of mercy and grace…I believe God gives us what we need…not necessarily what we deserve…He makes all things right…even though we cannot fathom the depth of His mercy, grace and love.

Who knows how He would reconcile and comfort those whos lives were ripped from them so cruely…He is Comfort and Mercy itself.

Let’s break this down: Do some Christians believe that if Hitler in the moments before his death was truly repentant and accepted Jesus into his heart, that he would have been forgiven? if so, is this forgiveness automatic for any Christian regardless of past actions or only a possibility?

 

[Publisher]

Let’s break this down: Do some Christians believe that if Hitler in the moments before his death was truly repentant and accepted Jesus into his heart, that he would have been forgiven? if so, is this forgiveness automatic for any Christian regardless of past actions or only a possibility?

Yes, some Christians do believe that…I believe God Judges us by the life we lived…with standards and measures we have no concept of. Justice is a chief atribute of God…but so is love and mercy…Hitler will face a God at the Last Day and give account of his deeds just as the rest of us.

Forgiveness is God’s to give…He is Sovereign.

 

[HelenRose]

so does this mean that i can still go to heaven, even though if i’m an atheist? please be specific, this is a real question.

because i’ve never thought that believing in jesus as a god was a choice that i could make. it isn’t that my heart is hardened; if jesus christ floated down on a cloud to meet me, i would dramatically revise my worldview;p

Would you be able to say to Christ, “Lord have mercy on me a sinner.”
If you are not willing say those words now in the midst of life, it is quite possible you would not be willing to submit to Christ, swallow your pride and say those words in the here-after.

You make your choices in life and those choices stay with you in death.

 

[Makko52]

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life”
The verse states that it was for the whole world, but only those who believe in him would attain it.

John 3:18 “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God”
It clearly shows that if someone does not believe that Jesus is who he says he is-is already condemned!

So what about all of those people that do not live in populated areas that they can easily hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Well the scripture gives us an answer for that as well.

Titus 2:11 “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men”
Salvation is through Jesus Christ

Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life Through Jesus Christ our Lord”

 

[PumpkinSeed]

Chrsitians maybe… Catholics NO!

Hitler by the way was reportedly a catholic. Could He have repented? SURE. Let’s allow God to do HIS JOB!

Hitler definitely could have repented. He was the one who chose not to.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Hitler definitely could have repented. He was the one who chose not to.

We don’t know that Hitler chose not to repent. We don’t know who is in hell.

Some Protestants believe that a mass murderer like Hitler could “accept Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior,” say the “sinners prayer” or the equivalent, and be taken straight to heaven. Catholics know that every single sin has a penalty, even though the sin(s) may be forgiven. The temporal punishment due to sin has to be expiated in this world or the next. The process of purification of the soul is called purgatory. Hitler could be in (or undergoing) purgatory until the end of time. We can’t know the final fate of Hitler – or anyone. Only God knows.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life”
The verse states that it was for the whole world, but only those who believe in him would attain it.

John 3:18 “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God”
It clearly shows that if someone does not believe that Jesus is who he says he is-is already condemned!

So what about all of those people that do not live in populated areas that they can easily hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Well the scripture gives us an answer for that as well.

Titus 2:11 “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men”
Salvation is through Jesus Christ

Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life Through Jesus Christ our Lord”

The Church is the rightful interpreter of the Book entrusted to her by God.

Quote:

Catechism of the Catholic Church 847 - Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation. End quote.

" . . . God our Savior. . . desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" 1 Timothy 2:3-4 RSV. “All men” includes all those who, “through no fault of their own, do not know Christ or his Church.”

Peace be with you.

Jim Dandy
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

 

[HelenRose]

I personally don’t care about the afterlife.

I see that you are a militant athiest heathen. That takes quite a leap of faith to embrace that particular religion. In fact I have more respect for athiests than I do an agnostics. It takes more courage to take a stand than to be a wishy washy agnostic.

When I think of agnostics, I am always reminded of Pontius Pilate when he asked the question, “What is truth?” then with that wimpy question as an excuse, he killed an innocent man.

I hope you find peace and joy in your chosen believe system.

An athiest would make that decision without resorting to an excuse and take the blame solely on himself with no regrets.

 

[grandfather]

The life you describe will not occur unless THIS LIFE is given the utmost concern and lived to it’s fullest…“I have come that you may have life and have it more abundantly”…“the Kingdom of God is among you…within you.” It is a present reality…the afterlife will take care of itself.

But to each his own…I find no meaning in an “afterlife”…but I do find deep profound meaning in this one.

Why is it one or the olther?

Jesus said lay up treasure in heaven. It is the promised land we long for, to be with God eternally. What we do here is all important, but it is temporary and leads to the promise of heaven. When we do anything in preparation for something else, the goal is always before us. Paul kept his eyes on the prize, knew this life was passing and a crown awaited him.

 

[tarboy]

I think all Christian religion, not just some, teach forgiveness was open to Hitler.

But then he would not have comitted suicide, and thus would have had the opportunity to repent and accept responsibility for his sins. I’d expect he still would have been convicted of war crimes in due course.

Let’s break this down: Do some Christians believe that if Hitler in the moments before his death was truly repentant and accepted Jesus into his heart, that he would have been forgiven? if so, is this forgiveness automatic for any Christian regardless of past actions or only a possibility?

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

Yes, thank you Trishie for posting that, as it helps us all!

 

[grandfather]

And, as you may already know, the emphasis on this life–including making the world a better place to live for everyone–and the belief that the afterlife will be taken care of by G-d, is shared by Judaism.

I think most everyone wants to make things better. The question is how do we know what to do that will make things better. I can not attribute evil intent to anyone. In politics there are polar opposites in views or agendas on what to do to make the future better. I assume the parties who promote their ideas mean well. One side says what we should do is have the civil government manage and control all aspects of life. The other side says that is a recipe for disaster. Both are sincere I assume.

Saying the object of life is to do things to make the world a better place is simplistic. You can’t do good unless you know what good is. You have to know how to do a thing if you hope to accomplish it.

There are unintended consequences to actions if we don’t know how to achieve the goal we seek. People individually and collectively make mistakes, but have nothing but the best of intentions. Not everyone has good intentions. Some people plot evil, but even those who hope to do good often end up making messes.

No one gets married saying I hope this marriage ends up in hatred and divorce. But that happens. The good intention requires the ability to accomplish the goal. In the spiritual life this ability is knowledge that comes through faith, and God’s help, or grace.

 

[z0wb13]

I see that you are a militant athiest heathen.

anyhow, a lot of posts seem to contradict each other. i can’t even tell if an atheist could go to heaven if they have lived an ethical life?

apparently, some parts of the bible say that it is possible, while other parts state explicitly that only through jesus, or even more specifically through the catholic church, can a person go to heaven. and the other major consensus that i keep seeing is that it doesn’t really matter what people think, because only the christian god knows.

am i getting all of this correctly?

the other thing that i want to mention is that i physically and emphatically can not believe in any gods any better than anyone else could force themselves to believe in unicorns. try it! try to force yourself to believe in unicorns, you can’t do it. and that’s how i feel when i try to believe in god.

i’m not saying that i’m right, or that i think anyone has a ridiculous belief system. i’m not comparing christianity to unicorns, directly. it’s just that until i ride a unicorn down a rainbow, i’m not going to “believe” in unicorns;p and i don’t think that just because the universe exists, that there must then be a god that created it.

 

[Kristin234]

anyhow, a lot of posts seem to contradict each other. i can’t even tell if an atheist could go to heaven if they have lived an ethical life?

apparently, some parts of the bible say that it is possible, while other parts state explicitly that only through jesus, or even more specifically through the catholic church, can a person go to heaven. and the other major consensus that i keep seeing is that it doesn’t really matter what people think, because only the christian god knows.

God tells us that we must believe in Him and we must be born again in order to be saved. God tells us that those who believe in Him are free from condemnation and that those who do not believe in Him are already condemned.

People can say that it doesn’t matter what people think and that only God knows and God can save whoever He wants, but the thing is…HE tells us who He will save and HE tells us the ONLY way He will save us.

It is clear as night and day. You believe in Jesus Christ = You will be saved. You reject Jesus Christ = you will not be saved.

The Bible CLEARLY says that and those who reject that idea are either ignorant or just don’t want to believe it. You cannot say God does indeed say that and then say He can still save anyone He wants even if they don’t believe in Jesus. If that is how it is then God would be a liar because He would be going against His Word. My God is not a liar so I will believe His Word.