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TheKingdomOfGod
Guest
It would be interesting to hear what the Vatican has to say.
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
There what is?
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Bballer32
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This is From the Catechism of the Catholic Church (Chapter 3, Article 9, Paragraph 3, Section III, Numbers 846-848)
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fred_conty
Guest
Here is what the Catechism says: “… Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.” (CCC #846)
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ProdglArchitect
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clfire
Guest
There was no Catholic Church when Jesus was alive…but the “church” began with the teachings of the apostles and it’s widely accepted that St Peter was the first “Pope”…and there was no Protestant sect until Luther left the Church…etc…I think what I’ve just said is correct?
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TheKingdomOfGod
Guest
Never heard of the ‘New American Bible’. We don’t have it over here, surprisingly.
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TheKingdomOfGod
Guest
Ah OK. So the argument here is the Catholic Church was the first church, created by Jesus’s apostles following his death.
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Zenkai
Guest
“And I tell thee this in my turn, that thou art Peter, and it is upon this rock that I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it; and I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Matthew 16:18-19
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clfire
Guest
NOTE: See under Bballer: Catechism…for text
So…most Protestants know the Catholic Church exists…or…do they have to be TOLD what the Church teaches…otherwise, they could be saved in accordance of thei r own Christian doctrine?
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fred_conty
Guest
What is the protestant mentality towards being saved with regards to various churches?
Many would say not to be narrow minded or dictatorial. Each has their own perspective.
And that everyone should be broad minded and accepting.
There are of course a few churches which are the exceptions to this thinking.
But protestants have this as their traditional way of thinking. This is their DNA.
So that means according to our way of thinking, they are accepting a wrong principle.
But that has to be taken into account when we are talking about their salvation.
But if there comes a moment when this principle looks flawed to them, then the scene changes.
Another principle for many protestants seems to be that they just assume that Catholicism is wrong and they simply don’t give it any credibility and therefore no investigation. It is just part of their culture.
Or some teach traditional hand-me-down misconceptions of catholocism, and again, without any real thought of verification. It just never dawns on most to think that what they have been told in their church about catholocism may not be actual fact.
And others have lived in a strong protestant community with family and friends and automatically think that this is it and all there is.
And then certain teachings of catholicism, such as purgatory, simply do not square with them since they have never be taught how it does square.
“No salvation outside” is true but there are a lot of “buts” to consider in real life, with real people.
IMO, so many catholics who have become protestant had such weak catholic formation and probabaly could not tell anyone why they were catholic except that my parents wanted me to.
How guilty are those who accept another christian faith when they never knew enough to begin with? Especially the young. It isn’t for me to say one way or the other for I don’t know all that needs to be known. But just off the top, it dosen’t appear that they knew hardly any good reasons for being catholic.
The one gnawing thought in the back of my mind is “did they try? or did they have the chance and ignored it?” And we will never know.
Just saying a few things.
Many would say not to be narrow minded or dictatorial. Each has their own perspective.
And that everyone should be broad minded and accepting.
There are of course a few churches which are the exceptions to this thinking.
But protestants have this as their traditional way of thinking. This is their DNA.
So that means according to our way of thinking, they are accepting a wrong principle.
But that has to be taken into account when we are talking about their salvation.
But if there comes a moment when this principle looks flawed to them, then the scene changes.
Another principle for many protestants seems to be that they just assume that Catholicism is wrong and they simply don’t give it any credibility and therefore no investigation. It is just part of their culture.
Or some teach traditional hand-me-down misconceptions of catholocism, and again, without any real thought of verification. It just never dawns on most to think that what they have been told in their church about catholocism may not be actual fact.
And others have lived in a strong protestant community with family and friends and automatically think that this is it and all there is.
And then certain teachings of catholicism, such as purgatory, simply do not square with them since they have never be taught how it does square.
“No salvation outside” is true but there are a lot of “buts” to consider in real life, with real people.
IMO, so many catholics who have become protestant had such weak catholic formation and probabaly could not tell anyone why they were catholic except that my parents wanted me to.
How guilty are those who accept another christian faith when they never knew enough to begin with? Especially the young. It isn’t for me to say one way or the other for I don’t know all that needs to be known. But just off the top, it dosen’t appear that they knew hardly any good reasons for being catholic.
The one gnawing thought in the back of my mind is “did they try? or did they have the chance and ignored it?” And we will never know.
Just saying a few things.
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TheKingdomOfGod
Guest
That’s a very general outlook on a massive collection of different churches. You’ve stereotyped.
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Bballer32
Guest
Coming from the fact that we as humans are very curious. This being that when we learn something, we want to figure it out or learn more about it immediately, especially in this day in age where we Google it on the spot with our smart phones and tablets and all that other stuff.
So, to a modern Protestant who has access to technology, they will more than likely ask questions or “Google” the Catholic Church just to see what they believe and how it differs from their own beliefs. The excuse of not knowing the Catholic Church is getting harder and harder to use in developed countries (i.e USA, UK, Germany, etc.) because of the instant access we have.
So to answer your question: knowing that there is a Catholic Church and what the beliefs are, are totally different. Now, if a Catholic were to tell them all about how the CC was the true Church of Christ, discuss the beliefs, and even ask them to join it, but the Protestant still refuses, then the Invincible Ignorance (the term associated with not knowing about something, especially in cases of sin) is gone. All that’s left is the conscience and the persons actions.
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Bballer32
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You said:
I high-lighted the phrase “but logic tells us you may have some problems” and said that this is the answer to Salvation Outside the Church.
Sorry for the confusion
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horselvr
Guest
Bballer32: What you have said above has hit home with me. I just had this conversation with an Anglican friend that sent me an e-mail that was filled with venom for the Catholic Church, the Pope, our confession, and especially our beliefs in salvation. I tried to remain calm in my answering e-mail and I think I did quite well. However, when it came to my answer on salvation I explained as you stated above and told her that when someone finds out the truth in salvation and then still turns their back on this truth, that they are actually turning their back on Christ too.
So, she has unfriended me on FB and now I am concerned for her salvation.
So, she has unfriended me on FB and now I am concerned for her salvation.
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fred_conty
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Thank you for your comment.
When I wrote my post I was careful to say “some” and “many”.
And you are free to prove me wrong about protestant tradiditions.
Just a thought…
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TheKingdomOfGod
Guest
Another principle for many protestants seems to be that they just assume that Catholicism is wrong and they simply don’t give it any credibility and therefore no investigation. It is just part of their culture.
That’s completely untrue. I have heard many Catholic friends talk about protestantism, (although I do hate that term sometimes), as being close-minded yet that is untrue. I am here learning about Catholicism, and I have had nothing but respect and an interest towards the Catholic faith. Saying something is ‘part of their culture’ is degrading.
Or some teach traditional hand-me-down misconceptions of catholocism, and again, without any real thought of verification. It just never dawns on most to think that what they have been told in their church about catholocism may not be actual fact.
The only time I can ever remember my Vicar mention Catholicism in my church was to talk about the local Catholic church who he praised as a brother in Christ and said despite our minor differences, at heart we are the same. You seem to be suggesting lies and scaremongering are commonplace in protestant churches. They are not.
**And others have lived in a strong protestant community with family and friends and automatically think that this is it and all there is. **
I’m intelligent enough to consider the differences between Anglican and Catholic communities and be well aware of the options and choices I have between them.
**IMO, so many catholics who have become protestant had such weak catholic formation and probabaly could not tell anyone why they were catholic except that my parents wanted me to.
How guilty are those who accept another christian faith when they never knew enough to begin with? Especially the young. It isn’t for me to say one way or the other for I don’t know all that needs to be known. But just off the top, it dosen’t appear that they knew hardly any good reasons for being catholic. **
There are plenty of good reasons for being Catholic and protestants, (again I hate using that term to be honest), but plenty of bad ones too. Most acknowledge and know of these.
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Bballer32
Guest
I’m sorry to hear about thatBballer32: What you have said above has hit home with me. I just had this conversation with an Anglican friend that sent me an e-mail that was filled with venom for the Catholic Church, the Pope, our confession, and especially our beliefs in salvation. I tried to remain calm in my answering e-mail and I think I did quite well. However, when it came to my answer on salvation I explained as you stated above and told her that when someone finds out the truth in salvation and then still turns their back on this truth, that they are actually turning their back on Christ too.
So, she has unfriended me on FB and now I am concerned for her salvation.
May i remind you that the people of this world (including myself) do not like to be noted wrong or not in Truth. So, you did what was necessary according to our teachings. Why? Well listen to this:
When we tell a non-Catholic about the Truth of the Church, we are taking away their invincible ignorance and yes, possibly risking their salvation. (REMEMBER! GOD IS THE FINAL JUDGE! IN KNOW WAY AM I PLAYING GOD OR TRYING TO JUDGE! I’M JUST TRYING TO EXPLAIN WHAT THE CHURCH SAYS IN A BASIC FORMAT!!) But, if we as Catholics do not go out and tell of the Truth and Good News of the Catholic Church, then we are not doing our Catholic duties and possibly risking our salvation (with the exception of cloistered orders).
God is the Final Judge, not me. Period.
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clfire
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I guess we can assume most Protestants have heard of the Catholic Church…
But some (most?) are in the dark about what we believe…no Catholic had taken the time to tell them…do they qualify as for whatever their denomination deems okay for salvation?
But some (most?) are in the dark about what we believe…no Catholic had taken the time to tell them…do they qualify as for whatever their denomination deems okay for salvation?
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Bballer32
Guest
If no Catholic has taken the time to inform them of the Church, then either:
a.) these people are no where near a Catholic Church or even a TV for that matter.
b.) the Catholics have not taken the time to interact with them or possibly the Catholics of that area are not informed on their own faith.
Now, by the means of salvation being that they are faithful, righteous, and continue to do good works through the goodness and kindness of their soul.
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