Salvation of Atheists based on Works.

[MichaelHowling]

Hi DonMack,

No, the church does not teach that being a good person doing good works is good enough to get to heaven.

The church teaches salvation is a free unwarranted gift give by God alone. It has also been revealed in scripture what God will you certain criteria on who is permitted in.

If we were made for a natural end…being a “good person” would be enough. But we are not made for a natural end. We were made for a supernatural end …Heaven…becoming a member of Gods own blessed life!. This requires grace. So it’s not a question of being good or even bad…Salvation requires sanctifying grace…a share in Gods life…to be able to enter Heaven.

I’ve reposted my first post on this column (post #5).

The church teaches " There is NO salvation outside of the Catholic Church. The church is the body of Christ and therefore, no salvation outside of Christ exists. Salvation is not a right as some people might think…or something to be gained if you follow a certain rubric or religion.

It is a free gift given from a God who IS love …and love wants only the best for the loved…Himself.

Now, knowing this…and that : God “wills ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge…” . … It happens, lest we pose it an obstacle…not being open to God’s grace…not participating with that grace.

This happens when someone refuses…but to those truly ignorant, or are continually striving…heaven is open to them by God’s own will.

We as catholics are bound by the sacraments and are asked to reveal these doorways that share Gods own blessed life and transmit grace to the world…but God is NOT bound by sacraments and in fact works outside of sacraments USING THE SAVING GRACE IN THE CHURCH …WHICH IS CHRIST’S BODY IN ONCE AND FOR ALL SACRIFCE THAT IS CONSTANTLY PRESENTED TO A GOD WHO KNOWS NO TIME…PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE BEING BEFORE HIM…and the prayers and sacrifice of the body, the church offered over through Him with Him and in Him.

With all that background…

to answer your question …

The degree to which they know and the circumstances of their lives …ALL go to judgement with them (and us). WE ALL have the responsibility to respond with our lives to truth and goodness as we know it.

 

[DonMack]

MichaelHowling…Thanks for the response. It doesn’t appear to me that you addressed question at all. I understand what you are saying about what the Church teaches. This question comes up in many ways and the answer from most all apologists is similar to yours. My question asks you to relate what it would mean to you IF… "What if the Church is trying to tell us that all who live a good and moral life go to heaven? Would it change your actions? Would you stop going to mass? Would be more kind to others? Would it be a bad thing if all good people went to heaven?

 

[Aloysium]

"What if the Church is trying to tell us that all who live a good and moral life go to heaven?

We know pretty well everything we do because we have been taught it. We are social beings, a church. If someone has not been taught about Jesus, they may, through God’s grace have an understanding of love and of the divine. I do not believe such people would end up in hell. Living a good and moral life means different things to different people; someone may feel they are doing a good thing volunteering with Planned Parenthood. Leading a moral life presupposes knowledge of what is truly good.

Would it change your actions?

At some point I considered that possibly all people went to heaven. At that time, I was not as interested in knowing God. My actions changed as I came to see things differently. So, to answer your question, lacking in understanding, I would behave differently.

Would you stop going to mass? Would be more kind to others?

If going to mass were meaningless, I would not go. It is most definitely has meaning for me; I go to worship God and participate in the eucharist with others. It is a part of heaven on earth.

Would it be a bad thing if all good people went to heaven?

All good people go to heaven. All good people love God above everything and each other as themselves.

 

[po18guy]

Isn’t hearing the Gospel and knowing the Gospel two different things?

If you are thinking that they must be catechized before they can make an informed decision, I think not. God’s law is written on their hearts, yet they obstinately reject all forms of inquiry into matters of creation/Creator. An open heart, once it hears the Gospel, desire to learn more. Closed hearts will not even hear of it. Consider: the western world/society/culture (which contains the highest percentage of atheists) has been based on belief in God for centuries. The very languages we speak are centered on belief, yet some flatly reject it. Our holidays and festivals are often based on belief. As to salvation, God condemns no one. Rather we condemn ourselves, as we always retain our free will - which many atheists and now even some Christians deny.

 

[Bookcat]

Are Atheists saved by good works?

No.

Anyone who is moved from a state of being separated from God to a state of grace (to salvation) – is saved by Jesus Christ --by his death and resurrection.

Even if they have never heard the Gospel per se …never heard his name…

 

[Bookcat]

Are Atheists saved by good works?

No.

*Anyone *who is moved from a state of being separated from God --to a state of grace (to salvation) – is saved by Jesus Christ --by his death and resurrection.

Even if they have never heard the Gospel per se …never heard his name…

 

[paul_c]

Let me pose a question that I think will help answer this question. What is the purpose of going to heaven?

Isn’t it to be with God, the one we love?

How does that appeal to the atheist, who denies His existence?

If its simply a reward for doing good, then where is the love in that?

Love is selfless, so when we do good it is to serve others, not to earn a reward.

 

[FPerito]

I would say that the key phrase on the Lumen Gentium was "without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life"

do note that most atheists doesn’t believe in the existence of God simply because they haven’t found any testable and measurable proof yet about the existence of God…to cut it short, they don’t have faith yet…thus, they qualify based on the above part of the Lumen Gentium…

now, given that God is all-loving and all-merciful, is it far-fetched for us to presume that there’s a slight chance that even if this ‘good atheist’ dies without reaching that point of believing in God, God would take a close look on the contributions this ‘good atheist’ did while he was still alive?

 

[SciFiWriter]

Wheew, this is quite the thread. As an Atheist, I can clearly see the divide here and I hope nobody here looks down on me. I didn’t even know what religion was until I was around maybe thirteen or fourteen years old. My parents did a pretty good job of keeping that tidbit of life away from me so that I could make my own decisions (not to deny any particular God). Since the day I first discovered, and tried to understand the meaning of belief beyond life, it has left me steadily confused. I’m not here to be converted, but I’m not here to insult your belief either. I’m friendly, I’m a good person, and I just thought you would like to know that there is an Atheist in the room that finds this conversation fairly fascinating.

To answer a question in the thread, no, I’m not denying any belief. I just don’t believe in anything. I have some very close Catholic friends, too and we all get along great. I’m perfectly happy where I am in life and it gives me a unique vantage point and ability to easily make friends of many faiths and gives me a little “roaming room” to explore culture, belief, and multiple thought processes.

It’s nice to see that there are people here that aren’t yet ready to consider me condemned in their eyes, or feel that I am in any trouble per-say in the eyes of God; and of course, I did read the posts about how people feel I’m destined to be quite… uncomfortable simply because of my upbringing. I don’t mind if people believe that, I just hope that it doesn’t bare on the way you would treat me in this life; as a friend. This is all very interesting.

 

[DonMack]

SciFiWriter…welcome! I am one of the Catholics that is not ready to condemn all atheist to hell, nor will I try to beat you over your head with a bible and the catechism book.There are many Catholics like me that realize that the best way to win others to Christ is to live a life of faith according to our command to love one another. My faith is in no way intimidated by the possibility that all good people go to heaven. Since nothing I’ve done in life makes me ‘worthy’ of God’s grace, I see no reason to say God’s grace shouldn’t or can’t be extended to all good people. God does as he wills. Yes, many on this forum will disagree and gladly point out my errors (some with grace and love, others with the full weight of the bible, catechism, and Tradition). I will always follow the instructions provided by our teaching authorities, and continue to count on their guidance, but I am open to the possibility that the Church is slowly trying to show us a more inclusive way of thinking.

 

[Zackeera]

…I am open to the possibility that the Church is slowly trying to show us a more inclusive way of thinking.

I thought that might be the case too after Pope Francis’s controversial statement, but it seems like the fires he sparked are being doused by others, leaving a trail of confusion.

 

[Zackeera]

No matter what is said, we do well to remember one thing from Isaiah 64:6:
“But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.”

But with Christ Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, we have the righteousness of God.

 

[DonMack]

Zackeera…yes, confusion certainly hasn’t gone away, even though most apologist keep telling us there is no confusion. Vatican II seemed to start the idea of expanding the thought of who will be in heaven, Pope John Paul implied it, Pope Benedict XVI wrote more on the subject and now Pope Francis speaks more directly about the possibility of a larger Church that may even include many atheist. Until the educated in theology ‘consider this possibility’, confusion will continue. Interesting times ahead. I look forward to more info from the Pope.

 

[MollyMac]

As Luke65 mentioned, I do not see that the quote from Lumen Gentium above has anything to do with atheists. By definition, an atheist is one who explicitly denies the existence of God. The quote above is about people who either sincerely seek God or at least people who affirm His existence yet may not have an explicit knowledge of God.

I should read further, but have not yet. I will. I’m wondering if someone can define the “God” being talked about in Lumen Gentium. “God” can mean so much these days. “God” can mean the God of Christianity, the Father Son and Holy Ghost. “God” can mean one’s self. “God” can mean Allah or any of the hundreds of Hindu gods, etc… What “God” would the atheist/Muslim/Hindu/Mormon/agnostic be seeking?

 

[Bookcat]

Are Atheists saved by good works?

No.

*Anyone *who is moved from a state of being separated from God --to a state of grace (to salvation) – is saved by Jesus Christ --by his death and resurrection.

Even if they have never heard the Gospel per se …never heard his name…

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

There is no salvation for anyone based on their own works. We are saved by GRACE through faith in Jesus Christ and NOT of works, lest any man boast (Eph 2:8). Only the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ merited the grace we need in order to be saved. Our part is to accept, respond to, and be transformed by God’s grace. We absolutely cannot work our way in to heaven, whether we are believers or atheists. Works are important insofar as they animate our faith, for faith without works is dead (Jas 2:17). “Good” works are a response to God’s grace and so is faith. Remember also that without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6).

Atheists do not respond to God’s grace so long as they continue to be atheists. The paragraph of the CCC cited in the original post is for those people who are sincerely seeking God but basically have not heard the Gospel properly proclaimed. That paragraph is totally inapplicable to atheists.

That is not to say that an atheist can’t come to faith in the waning moments of their life. Nothing is impossible with God (Lk 1:37). Since God desires all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), He certainly may pour out an abundance of grace on a dying atheist that they may come to know and believe. In fact, there is a Scripture that gives me a great deal of hope for my household, many of whom are non-believers. The Apostles said in Acts 16:31 “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you and your household will be saved.” Well, I believe in the Lord Jesus but my household doesn’t. Still, the Scripture says they will be saved. How can this be? I can only assume that God will keep this promise and that somehow He will bring my unbelieving family to faith (like He did for me) before they die. It is hard for me to imagine how He will do this, but I trust His word in the Scriptures.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . I’m friendly, I’m a good person, and I just thought you would like to know that there is an Atheist in the room that finds this conversation fairly fascinating . . . I just don’t believe in anything . . . It’s nice to see that there are people here that aren’t yet ready to consider me condemned in their eyes, or feel that I am in any trouble per-say in the eyes of God; and of course, I did read the posts about how people feel I’m destined to be quite… uncomfortable simply because of my upbringing. I don’t mind if people believe that, I just hope that it doesn’t bare on the way you would treat me in this life; as a friend. This is all very interesting.

:twocents:

• “good person” - whether one is a good or bad person is not our judgement to make; it is God’s prerogative.
• If God is not recognized, guilt, shame and morality being part of our human nature, I guess it is the individual or society that does the judging, You are not here being condemned in anybody’s eyes. We are obliged to follow God’s will, and there are discussions in this regard that could understandably make you feel uncomfortable. It might be relevant for you to know that at the beginning of the mass we say, “I confess to almighty God and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have greatly sinned, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done and in what I have failed to do, through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault;” - this prepares us to encounter Goodness Itself. We are all sinners. Being human, you will be grouped in with us; there’s nothing personal in it.
• One will not end up being “quite uncomfortable” because of one’s upbringing. It is through God’s grace that we come to know Him; how we respond to His offer of grace determines the outcome. By the way, blaming things on parents etc is an example of something we have done since we fell. (Adam blamed Eve, she blamed the snake, and people will blame God for putting the snake there in the first place, seems like sometimes anyone but the person doing the actual sinning.)
• Catholics aim to love their neighbours as themselves. I hope this gives you some understanding of the Catholic perspective and allays your concerns about how you would be treated.

 

[SciFiWriter]

:twocents:

• “good person” - whether one is a good or bad person is not our judgement to make; it is God’s prerogative.

I see everyone as inherently good. Or at least, I do my best to. But I can understand where you’re coming from, and that’s cool.

We are all sinners. Being human, you will be grouped in with us; there’s nothing personal in it.

I don’t believe there is such thing as “sin”; in fact, I had never even heard the word until I was about sixteen or seventeen. I read a lot of books and didn’t watch enough movies to catch the phrase. I believe the first time I heard of that word was when I watched this movie called “Constantine” with Keanu Reeves. I literally had to stop the movie and call up one of my catholic friends and he explained enough about the movie for me to understand the plot. But, the notion of “sin” is new to me but I see it as solely part of a faith; but don’t worry, it’s a faith that I can respect because everyone here seems to be fine with my presence just the same. Thanks for having me, by the way.

• One will not end up being “quite uncomfortable” because of one’s upbringing. It is through God’s grace that we come to know Him; how we respond to His offer of grace determines the outcome. By the way, blaming things on parents etc is an example of something we have done since we fell. (Adam blamed Eve, she blamed the snake, and people will blame God for putting the snake there in the first place, seems like sometimes anyone but the person doing the actual sinning.)

I never blamed my parents for anything. I explained in an objective manner, the reasons why I come here with a fresh open mind and why I literally know very little about your faith. I never said that I saw this as a problem. I think you misunderstood me. I would never blame my parents for anything. In fact, My father was my best friend. I have nothing but good things to say about him and I wish he was still here with me today. I can go on and on about my father but that’s not what this thread is about. I just wanted to fit in that I had the most amazing dad anyone could ever ask for.

• Catholics aim to love their neighbours as themselves. I hope this gives you some understanding of the Catholic perspective and allays your concerns about how you would be treated.

Thank you very much I love it when I meet people of a faith that are accepting and kind. I am equally a friend to anyone who needs one or wants one.

 

[Sultan_Of_Swing]

First of all, any good works that we do I don’t believe are of our own efforts.

Every good work is from God. We can only perform good works by co-operating with the grace God has given us to perform such a work. When an atheist performs a good work, he is co-operating with God’s grace even if he may not know it.

When we realise this, we come to understand that an atheist who has lived a life filled with good works is in fact much more in tune with God than we would have previously thought, as all goodness comes from God.

Ultimately, we can only be saved through Christ, but a life of good works would merit salvific graces, I believe, and I would expect such an atheist to come to know Christ at some point. If, when the end comes, the atheist still rejects Christ, then I’m afraid there’s little hope. But I highly doubt an atheist who has truly worked goodness in his life would do such a thing.

 

[FPerito]

First of all, any good works that we do I don’t believe are of our own efforts.

Every good work is from God. We can only perform good works by co-operating with the grace God has given us to perform such a work. When an atheist performs a good work, he is co-operating with God’s grace even if he may not know it.

When we realise this, we come to understand that an atheist who has lived a life filled with good works is in fact much more in tune with God than we would have previously thought, as all goodness comes from God.

Ultimately, we can only be saved through Christ, but a life of good works would merit salvific graces, I believe, and I would expect such an atheist to come to know Christ at some point. If, when the end comes, the atheist still rejects Christ, then I’m afraid there’s little hope. But I highly doubt an atheist who has truly worked goodness in his life would do such a thing.

+1

that’s why the Lumen Gentium was pretty accurate about the use of the word “yet” for they are leaving something entirely to God…something that we as humans may not be able to properly and objectively understand