Salvation of Mankind

[simple_soul]

This is from a link a poster provided on Salvation on another thread. It did go in to explain the individuals responsibility on working out thier own salvation, I have no problem understanding that part , what I wish to discuss is the Salvation of Mankind.

Salvation of the human race

We need not dwell upon the possibility of the salvation of mankind or upon its appropriateness. Nor need we remind the reader that after God had freely determined to save the human race, He might have done so by pardoning man’s sins without having recourse to the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity. Still, the Incarnation of the Word was the most fitting means for the salvation of man, and was even necessary, in case God claimed full satisfaction for the injury done to him by sin (see INCARNATION). Though the office of Saviour is really one, it is virtually multiple: there must be an atonement for sin and damnation, an establishment of the truth so as to overcome human ignorance and error, a perennial source of spiritual strength aiding man in his struggle against darkness and concupiscence. There can be no doubt that Jesus Christ really fulfilled these three functions, that He therefore really saved mankind from sin and its consequences. As teacher He established the reign of truth; as king He supplied strength to His subjects; as priest He stood between heaven and earth, reconciling sinful man with his angry God.

The reason I am asking about this part is because there seems to be this fear looming around certain threads regarding a certain homily given by Pope Francis recently. This fear seems to be that in some way some how all of mankind, through the Divine Love and Mercy of God will be miraculously saved as well as being redeemed. I am seeking to find out if it is Truth. If it is true that would be so awesome that words could never explain and fills my whole being with so much hope and joy. If it is true I want to learn about it so that I can help the Salvation of Mankind happen with every fiber in my being. So if any one knows if there is any Truth to this “fear” please help me to know and understand. If it is not True I want to understand why also but since I was raised with the understanding that it is not Truth and yet have no reasons to explain why it makes me want to take this one step at a time.

So for the sake of this thread keep it only on the subject of the Salvation of Mankind. Is it possible that all mankind can be saved if we all learn to pray and do penance not only for our sins but at the same time offering it for the sins of all Mankind. If we all learn to pick up our crosses and carry them, and I am not talking about going out of our way and doing extreem pennces, just the little self mortifications that St. Theresa of Lisieuse taught us in her little way, in this redeptive suffering will all Mandkind be saved if we choose to join Jesus on the Cross

 

[MarcoPolo]

So for the sake of this thread keep it only on the subject of the Salvation of Mankind. Is it possible that all mankind can be saved

It’s a complex question, and here’s how I understand it. Since there are so many souls on which the Church has, through the Ordinary Magisterium, refused to comment on their eternal fate, including Judas, it is in some sense theoretically something we may “hope” for, because you can always hope for each individual one by one. This is something different than teaching everyone will be saved if you get down to the theology. A book you may be interested in is Dare We Hope That All Men Be Saved? With a Short Discourse on Hell by Hans Urs von Balthasar. I would let him articulate the theology in his own words. This book was reading in one of my classes at Franciscan, I forget which one off-hand. People who do not understand the nuance at work here find him to be a universalist, but as I recall, he was not and has been revered by Popes and was apparently to be named a Cardinal prior to his death.

As to Pope Francis’ homily, I did not see any such thing in what he actually said, but rather an ignorant media confusing universal redemption with universal salvation.

Read more at Jimmy Akin’s blog on Pope Francis and atheists.
I also wrote about the media and Pope Francis on atheists at my lowly blog just today.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Let me just add one other thing. Though we can hope for individuals and that may be a pious gesture to pray for all souls without exception, there have been a number of private revelations by great saints having visions of souls in hell. Now, private revelations are not something we are required to believe. They are not dogmas or official doctrines. However, they may be evidence that there are people in hell for what private revelations are worth.

 

[po18guy]

I believe that the Pope was addressing mankind’s redemption. Redemption is not salvation - that is a protestant confusion/invention. It commits the sin of presumption (CCC 2091, 2092). Salvation is up to us. Redemption was up to Christ. How is salvation up to us? We have to believe and be baptized. God does not force belief and baptism upon us. Those choices are freely made by us. We have to persevere to the end - that is up to us, with the graces of God to strengthen us along the way. God does not carry us, but provides the strength so that we can make the journey. We have to keep His commandments - He does not keep them for us. We must love one another as He loves us - His love for others is not enough. He needs us to love them, too. He *commands * us to love them as He loves them.

Redemption is Christ’s sacrifice opening the gates of heaven for us. Salvation is us making the journey, by God’s grace, to and through those gates. Do we save ourselves? No. Do we need God’s mercy and grace for our salvation? Yes!

 

[simple_soul]

Thank you both for your responses. Just to clarify I am not inquiring about what Pope Francis did or did not say in his homily. I am just trying to understand if there is hope for the salvation of all mankind. I can’t seem to quite get all of my scattered thoughts about it together I beleive it is going to take some praying and pondering over that was why I am inquiring for any information regarding it.

MarcoPolo-

Thank you for the book referral. Will have to check it out.

Po18guy-

Thank you for your susinct post. I beleive it will be a great referencing point for me as I try to piece these scattered thought together.

 

[Vico]

GAUDIUM ET SPES:45. While helping the world and receiving many benefits from it, the Church has a single intention: that God’s kingdom may come, and that the salvation of the whole human race may come to pass. For every benefit which the People of God during its earthly pilgrimage can offer to the human family stems from the fact that the Church is “the universal sacrament of salvation”,(24) simultaneously manifesting and exercising the mystery of God’s love.
24. Cf. Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Chapter II n. 15: AAS 57 (1965), p. 20.
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_cons_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html

 

[simple_soul]

GAUDIUM ET SPES:45. While helping the world and receiving many benefits from it, the Church has a single intention: that God’s kingdom may come, and that the salvation of the whole human race may come to pass. For every benefit which the People of God during its earthly pilgrimage can offer to the human family stems from the fact that the Church is “the universal sacrament of salvation”,(24) simultaneously manifesting and exercising the mystery of God’s love.
24. Cf. Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Chapter II n. 15: AAS 57 (1965), p. 20.
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_cons_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html

This is Dogma?!!!

wow…I can see I have my homework cut out for me…

Vico thank you so much for providing this.

 

[po18guy]

Thank you both for your responses. Just to clarify I am not inquiring about what Pope Francis did or did not say in his homily. I am just trying to understand if there is hope for the salvation of all mankind. I can’t seem to quite get all of my scattered thoughts about it together I beleive it is going to take some praying and pondering over that was why I am inquiring for any information regarding it.

MarcoPolo-

Thank you for the book referral. Will have to check it out.

Po18guy-

Thank you for your susinct post. I beleive it will be a great referencing point for me as I try to piece these scattered thought together.

Fr. Robert Barron believes that we may indeed hope for the salvation of all mankind. Otherwise, why would it have been offered? As well, only God knows the state of a given soul at the moment of death, whereas we do not and cannot.

As to Gaudium et Spes, it is not dogma, only a magisterial teaching, which you may accept as infallible teaching.

All teaching in the catechism is considered to be infallible. Only when such teaching is challenged by heresy of some type is doctrine ever set in stone as dogma. This does not change the doctrine in the slightest. Declaring dogma settles the question and is intended to end the argument and quash the heresy.

 

[Vico]

This is Dogma?!!!

wow…I can see I have my homework cut out for me…

Vico thank you so much for providing this.

You are welcome. For the dogma see Lumen Gentium Chapter II, No. 15:15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

 

[simple_soul]

Let me just add one other thing. Though we can hope for individuals and that may be a pious gesture to pray for all souls without exception, there have been a number of private revelations by great saints having visions of souls in hell. Now, private revelations are not something we are required to believe. They are not dogmas or official doctrines. However, they may be evidence that there are people in hell for what private revelations are worth.

I was thinking about this some more and I remembered something I had read at the Holy See website. It was the document reg the Message of Fatima. In it it explained quite well how we influence visions with our own thoughts so I wonder how much of the visions of this kind of hell was more influenced by what they were taught verses the reality of what Hell really is.

 

[simple_soul]

Fr. Robert Barron believes that we may indeed hope for the salvation of all mankind. Otherwise, why would it have been offered? As well, only God knows the state of a given soul at the moment of death, whereas we do not and cannot.

As to Gaudium et Spes, it is not dogma, only a magisterial teaching, which you may accept as infallible teaching.

All teaching in the catechism is considered to be infallible. Only when such teaching is challenged by heresy of some type is doctrine ever set in stone as dogma. This does not change the doctrine in the slightest. Declaring dogma settles the question and is intended to end the argument and quash the heresy.

Thank you for clarifying that. I beleive when I saw the reference for the Dogmatic Constitution for the Church I took it as saying Gaudium Et Spes was the dogma.

Thank you for telling me about Fr. Barron. From the little snid bits I have been able to catch of him I have found his teaching and reflections very helpful in my spiritual journey. Some day I want to get his Catechism CD set. If you know of any recordings where he actually talks of this do you mind posting them or referring me to where I can learn more of his belief on the Salvation of all Mankind?

 

[simple_soul]

You are welcome. For the dogma see Lumen Gentium Chapter II, No. 15:15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

Thank you Vico for this and helping Po18guy clear up my confusion.

 

[Jon_S_1]

GAUDIUM ET SPES:45. While helping the world and receiving many benefits from it, the Church has a single intention: that God’s kingdom may come, and that the salvation of the whole human race may come to pass. For every benefit which the People of God during its earthly pilgrimage can offer to the human family stems from the fact that the Church is “the universal sacrament of salvation”,(24) simultaneously manifesting and exercising the mystery of God’s love.
24. Cf. Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Chapter II n. 15: AAS 57 (1965), p. 20.
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_cons_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html

It should be our hope and intention that the entire human race comes to know Christ and is saved in the end.

Whether or not that is the case is up to God in his judgment and the hearts of men to be open and accepting to God and his Truth.

 

[simple_soul]

It should be our hope and intention that the entire human race comes to know Christ and is saved in the end.

Whether or not that is the case is up to God in his judgment and the hearts of men to be open and accepting to God and his Truth.

Do you have any thoughts as to how the hearts of men will be opened up to His Truth?
If you do would you mind shirring them with us?

And please remember, I am only inquiring on how you believe they might be opened not closed.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Do you have any thoughts as to how the hearts of men will be opened up to His Truth?
If you do would you mind shirring them with us?

And please remember, I am only inquiring on how you believe they might be opened not closed.

Our hearts should be open to the revealed truth of God. There is one God, and he revealed his truth to the Israelites (His choice for his reasons). HE then manifested himself as man to completely reveal all that he wants us to know, including his atoning work on the Cross. This redemption is for all men, and yet God chooses to use men to participate in his plan of salvation. He commissioned both a church and a movement to save the whole world. The church protects the truth and spreads the truth, and it is every persons responsibility to listen to the promptings of God which are written on the hearts of men. We must listen and follow. To not do so is to listen to our own culture, our own selfishness, our own desires, our own traditions. All of these are contrary to a heart that has God at its center. This is the purpose of the great missions of the church over the last 2000 years starting with the Apostles commissioned by Christ himself.

Now, one must ask, what about the precious creature of God created by God, that has no opportunity to hear the Gospel of Christ. (Native Americans 1000 years ago for example.

It is these cases, where we have hope that God saves them, if they are seeking the truth and if they had been presented with baptism they would have accepted it. That is what the catechism says and I think it is a valid speculation.

We are bound by the Sacraments, and once one knows the truth they are bound to it. That is God’s normative means of salvation. God is not bound by the sacraments though since he is God, but any other means of salvation outside the Church has not been revealed to us by God, and thus we can have a hope, but no assurance.

Since we have only a hope and no assurance, we must heed God’s call, and follow Christs commission and spread the Truth God has revealed through Christ and the Church to “all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit” Matt 25

Please note, Christ did not commission them to go and teach them to do good works, or go and acknowledge their path. No he said go and tell them the truth, baptize them for the forgiveness of sins, As it says in 1st Peter, “Baptism now saves you”

 

[simple_soul]

Our hearts should be open to the revealed truth of God. There is one God, and he revealed his truth to the Israelites (His choice for his reasons). HE then manifested himself as man to completely reveal all that he wants us to know, including his atoning work on the Cross. This redemption is for all men, and yet God chooses to use men to participate in his plan of salvation. He commissioned both a church and a movement to save the whole world. The church protects the truth and spreads the truth, and it is every persons responsibility to listen to the promptings of God which are written on the hearts of men. We must listen and follow. To not do so is to listen to our own culture, our own selfishness, our own desires, our own traditions. All of these are contrary to a heart that has God at its center. This is the purpose of the great missions of the church over the last 2000 years starting with the Apostles commissioned by Christ himself.

Now, one must ask, what about the precious creature of God created by God, that has no opportunity to hear the Gospel of Christ. (Native Americans 1000 years ago for example.

It is these cases, where we have hope that God saves them, if they are seeking the truth and if they had been presented with baptism they would have accepted it. That is what the catechism says and I think it is a valid speculation.

We are bound by the Sacraments, and once one knows the truth they are bound to it. That is God’s normative means of salvation. God is not bound by the sacraments though since he is God, but any other means of salvation outside the Church has not been revealed to us by God, and thus we can have a hope, but no assurance.

Since we have only a hope and no assurance, we must heed God’s call, and follow Christs commission and spread the Truth God has revealed through Christ and the Church to “all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit” Matt 25

Please note, Christ did not commission them to go and teach them to do good works, or go and acknowledge their path. No he said go and tell them the truth, baptize them for the forgiveness of sins, As it says in 1st Peter, “Baptism now saves you”

So in this mindset of Hope how would some one like Judas, the Apostle of Jesus who betrayed Him, be saved?

 

[Jon_S_1]

So in this mindset of Hope how would some one like Judas, the Apostle of Jesus who betrayed Him, be saved?

The reason the church has never speculated on this, is because they do not know specifics about Judas, and his state of repentance at the time of death. The church does not speculate on anyones final destination since only God knows mens hearts.

If Judas was in a state of mortal sin when he died the church would say that he is in hell, but we just do not know that so we cannot say. Thus we can HOPE and PRAY for his salvation, but that does not mean he has it or will ever have it.

 

[simple_soul]

The reason the church has never speculated on this, is because they do not know specifics about Judas, and his state of repentance at the time of death. The church does not speculate on anyones final destination since only God knows mens hearts.

If Judas was in a state of mortal sin when he died the church would say that he is in hell, but we just do not know that so we cannot say. Thus we can HOPE and PRAY for his salvation, but that does not mean he has it or will ever have it.

I guess the only question I have the is why is it ok to have a personal devotion or piety to hope that every one is saved if it is something that will never happen.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I guess the only question I have the is why is it ok to have a personal devotion or piety to hope that every one is saved if it is something that will never happen.

We don’t know these things for certain. We also don’t know for certain heaven exists. At the end of the day we use the truth revealed to us and faith does the rest.

Like I said, the church cannot know who is condemned so we pray for all souls.

If they are condemned, our prayer brought us closer to God

If they are in Purgatory, our prayers aid their sanctification

If they are in heaven they can intercede for us.

Do no matter what the prayers are not wasted!

 

[Jon_S_1]

I guess the only question I have the is why is it ok to have a personal devotion or piety to hope that every one is saved if it is something that will never happen.

We don’t know these things for certain. We also don’t know for certain heaven exists. At the end of the day we use the truth revealed to us and faith does the rest.

Like I said, the church cannot know who is condemned so we pray for all souls.

If they are condemned, our prayer brought us closer to God

If they are in Purgatory, our prayers aid their sanctification

If they are in heaven they can intercede for us.

Do no matter what the prayers are not wasted!