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simple_soul
Guest
I know this it is the biggest reason I just pray just trusting God knows what to use the prayers for best even if it is for retroactive purposes.
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McCall1981
Guest
The Church has formally condemned universal salvation.
From the Catholic encyclopedia:
newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm
From the article on Apokatastasis, (universal salvation)
“In any case, the doctrine (apokatastasis) was formally condemned in the first of the famous anathemas pronounced at the Council of Constantinople in 543: Ei tis ten teratode apokatastasis presbeuei anathema esto [See, also, Justinian, Liber adversus Originem, anathemas 7 and 9.] The doctrine was thenceforth looked on as heterodox by the Church.”
The Church does not teach the salvation of mankind in the sense that everyone is actually saved. When Christ died, it won universal redemption for all human beings, meaning that the gap between God and humanity that had been created by original sin was bridged and all people are potentially capable of salvation. Redemption happened corporatly which means it applies to all people without exception, and this is what Pope Francis was talking about. We are all children of God, all can do good, all are equally loved by God thanks to our resemption.
Salvation is individual, we could potentially all be saved, but not all of us actually are saved because some of us reject Gods offer of salvation. Our redemption was Gods loving act that made our salvation possible, and it gave the “power” or choice to us to accept or reject salvation. Think of it this way, we are all redeemed right now, we wont know if we individually are saved until death.
The only knowledge we have for sure of who is saved vs who isn’t is that the Saints are all saved for sure. The Church has also formally condemned universal salvation so we know for sure that not everyone is saved. Beyond that we do not know for sure who is and isnt saved.
What Pope Francis was re-iterating was the Churchs doctrine on redemption, he didnt say anything new. What he said is admittedly confusing if you dont know the difference between redemption and salvation.
When the Church speaks of the salvation of mankind it means it as a potentiality. God offers salvaion to all mankind, and wants us all to be saved, but not all of us ascent.
From the Catholic encyclopedia:
newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm
From the article on Apokatastasis, (universal salvation)
“In any case, the doctrine (apokatastasis) was formally condemned in the first of the famous anathemas pronounced at the Council of Constantinople in 543: Ei tis ten teratode apokatastasis presbeuei anathema esto [See, also, Justinian, Liber adversus Originem, anathemas 7 and 9.] The doctrine was thenceforth looked on as heterodox by the Church.”
The Church does not teach the salvation of mankind in the sense that everyone is actually saved. When Christ died, it won universal redemption for all human beings, meaning that the gap between God and humanity that had been created by original sin was bridged and all people are potentially capable of salvation. Redemption happened corporatly which means it applies to all people without exception, and this is what Pope Francis was talking about. We are all children of God, all can do good, all are equally loved by God thanks to our resemption.
Salvation is individual, we could potentially all be saved, but not all of us actually are saved because some of us reject Gods offer of salvation. Our redemption was Gods loving act that made our salvation possible, and it gave the “power” or choice to us to accept or reject salvation. Think of it this way, we are all redeemed right now, we wont know if we individually are saved until death.
The only knowledge we have for sure of who is saved vs who isn’t is that the Saints are all saved for sure. The Church has also formally condemned universal salvation so we know for sure that not everyone is saved. Beyond that we do not know for sure who is and isnt saved.
What Pope Francis was re-iterating was the Churchs doctrine on redemption, he didnt say anything new. What he said is admittedly confusing if you dont know the difference between redemption and salvation.
When the Church speaks of the salvation of mankind it means it as a potentiality. God offers salvaion to all mankind, and wants us all to be saved, but not all of us ascent.
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simple_soul
Guest
Yes but some day will all ascent or could all ascent? Does this document cover this?
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
The only problem is once you die, you can no longer ascent.
Its interesting though, I heard a talk from a Catholic at my parish once, on hell, and he described all mortal sins as being inwardly focused selfish acts. Since this is what separates us from God, the souls in Hell are separated from him, because they choose to be. God could be there yelling with a microphone that the gates are open, but they do not hear because they are not listening. They are frozen in on themselves. It is interesting that Dante described the devil as being frozen in ice for similar reasons.
So it is only our own selfishness that will keep us from God. God is not in the business of holding prisoners or making robots. He gave us free will to choose him . he gave this to the angels too. The angels resided in heaven with God, and yet Satan and the fallen angels chose not to reside there, and chose to go up against God, due to their selfishness. They wanted to be “like God”. It is in the same way that souls are in hell.
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simple_soul
Guest
I often wonder if anyone one can ever be completely absolutely selfish and closed off to everything. I have not come across one soul yet that I have not been able to see a possible way of redemption for. Don’t know how to explain it but it just has not happened yet.
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
You have to realize though, that you are thinking in temporal terms. To God, one sin can cause this separation, a single attachment to ourselves and our sinful nature is all it takes without Gods forgiveness and subsequent sanctification
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simple_soul
Guest
Please don’t tell me what I think because it is all sin that I am taking into consideration here and God’s fogginess and subsequent sanctification. I just do not know how to explain it so like I said earlier I will leave it in God’s and our Church Leaders Hands and keep trusting that He knows what is best no matter what even if I find out some day only one person is in heaven and the rest of us are damed.
D
De_Montfort
Guest
Could someone dive a little deeper on this Scripture please, cause it’s kinda scary!
(Matthew 7:21)
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.”
(Matthew 7:21)
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.”
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
Hopefully this helps and doesn’t confuse but I’m just gonna post scripture:
Matt 19;16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18 “Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[c] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”
20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
Matt 25 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
James 2:
12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
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simple_soul
Guest
Make you kind of wonder if more of us than we realize are going to be depended on His Mercy and forgiveness in order to enter heaven in our last breath on this earth.
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
Yep, just a bit earlier in Matt 7
Matt 7 13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
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simple_soul
Guest
what I wonder about is do those few who do find it are they the ones who through God’s Graces suffer for the rest of us so that we too may be saved.
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
Can you support that with anything at all??? I think if we believe Jesus is God, we must believe that he told us the truth, and I just don’t think he happened to leave that detail out.
This is why we must form our hearts to his as the Saints did.
S
simple_soul
Guest
Which is percisely what I am trying to do…
po18guy
Well-known member
It was in his comments in one of his vids on YouTube. I cannot locate it again, but he is quite active there, so you might just drop him a line.
S
simple_soul
Guest
Thank you again I will have to find a way to contact him. Maybe he can help me sort it all out seeing as all I can hear these days is redemptive suffering, prayers, and the Fatima prayer, Oh my Jesus forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to Heaven, esspeciy those most in need of Your Mercy. I used to wonder would be the soul who’s sins would call the most for God’s Mercey. It was on a thread here at CAF that some posters were talking about this subject. Well I beleive it was this subject. Anyway it was then that I started see wonder about is how these ones who would be most in need of His Mercy would be those whom we beleive to be damned.
The way I beleive I see it is the pain Jesus’ sacred Heart must be in over those souls is a pain that no words could ever adequatly describe. It is like His Love and Mercy keeps being streached like a bolloon trying to encompass too much air and at any moment you would think it would Burt’s but it doesn’t it some how finds a way to streach a little bit more. We really do need to stop taking advantage of His Love and Mercy. It’s not fair to Him. Hence the call to redemptive suffering and prayer.
Ok I beleive I am all set with this thread so will ask the moderators to close it.
Thank you all for your help in trying to understand all these rambling thoughts. Please keep me in your prayers and my prayers are with you all.
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
This was posted to me on another thread, in light of all that was discussed here, I think it is important to see what the church says about this:
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott
Membership of the Church is necessary for all men for salvation.
In the Caput Firmiter, the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) declared: “The universal Church of the faithful is one outside of which none is saved” (extra quam nullus omnino salvatur). D 430. This was the teaching also of the Union Council of Florence (D 714), and of Popes Innocent III (0 42)) and Boniface VIII in the Bull ‘Unam sanctam’ (D 468), Clement VI (D 570 b), Benedict XIV (D 1473), Pius IX (0 1647, 1677), Leo XI1I, Pius XII in the Encyclical Mystici Corporis"
As against modern religious indifferentism, Pius IX declared: “By Faith it is to be firmly held that outside the Apostolic Roman Church none can achieve salvation. This is the only ark of salvation. He who does not enter into it, will perish in the flood. Nevertheless equally certainly it is to be held that those who suffer from invincible ignorance of the true religion, are not for this reason guilty in the eyes of the Lord" (D 1647). The last proposition holds out the possibility that people who in point of fact (actu) do not belong to the Church can achieve salvation.
The necessity for belonging to the Church is not merely a necessity of precept (necessitas praccepti), but also a necessity of means (nee. medii), as the comparison with the Ark, the means of salvation from the biblical flood, plainly shows. The necessity of means is, however, not an absolute necessity, but a hypothetical one. In special circumstances, namely, in the case of invincible ignorance or of incapability, actual membership of the Church can be replaced by the desire (votum) for the same. This need not be expressly present, but can also be included in the moral readiness faithfully to fulfill the will of God. In this manner also those who are in fact outside the Catholic Church can achieve salvation.
Christ ordained affiliation to the Church by founding the Church as an institution unto salvation for all men. He endowed the Apostles with His authority, gave them a universal mandate to teach and baptize and made eternal salvation dependent on the acceptance of His teaching and the reception of Baptism. Luke 10, 16; Mt. 10, 40; 18, 17; 29,19; Mk.16, 15 et seq. That those who, in innocent ignorance, do not know the true Church of Christ, but who are nevertheless ready to bow to the demands of the Divine Will, will not be cast out, springs from the Divine Justice, and from the doctrine of God’s general will of salvation, which is clearly proved in the Scriptures. (1 Tim. 2, 4). The Apostles teach the necessity of the Church for salvation by promulgating Faith in Christ and His Gospel as a condition for salvation. Peter confesses before the High Council: “Neither is there salvation in any other" (Acts 4, 12). Cf Gal. I, 8; Tit. 3, 10 et seq.; 2 John 10 et seq.
It is the unanimous conviction of the Fathers that salvation cannot be achieved outside the Church. This principle was extended not only to pagans but to heretics and schismatics as well. St. Irenaeus teaches that: “in the efficacy of the spirit all those have no part, who do not hasten to the Church; rather they, by their evil teaching and their evil deeds, rob themselves of life. For where the Church is, there is also the spirit of God, and where the spirit of God is, there is the Church and all grace" (Adv. haer. III 24, I). Origen formally declares: “Outside the Church nobody will be saved” (extra ecclesiam nemo salvatur; In Jesu Nave hom. 3, 5); similarly St. Cyprian: “Outside the Church there is no salvation" (salus extra ecciesiam non est; Ep. 73, 21). The Fathers, for example, St. Cyprian, St. Jerome, St. Augustine, St. Fulgentius, regard, as types of the necessity of the Church for salvation, the saving Ark of Noah and the House of Rahab OOS. 2, 18 et seq.). In the Primitive Church the conviction of her necessity for salvation found practical expression in her missionary zeal, in the readiness of her children to suffer martyrdom and in her battle against heresy.
In view of the stress laid upon the necessity of membership of the Church for salvation it is understandable that the possibility of salvation for those outside the Church is mentioned only hesitantly. St. Ambrose and St. Augustine admit that catechumens who depart this life before the reception of Baptism can win salvation on the ground of their faith, their desire for Baptism, and their internal conversion (St. Ambrose, De obitu Val. 51; St. Augustine, De hapt. IV 22,29). On the other hand, Gennadius of Marseilles denies them this possibility, except in the case of martyrdom (De eccl. Dogm. 74). St. Augustine distinguishes also, not indeed using the terminology, between material and formal heretics. Thus he does regard material heretics as heretics properly so-called (Ep. 43, I, I). He seems to estimate their possibility of salvation otherwise than he does that of heretics proper.
St. Thomas, agreeing with Tradition, teaches the general necessity of the Church for salvation. Expos. symb. a. 9. On the other hand, he concedes that a person may be saved extrasacramentally by baptism of desire and therefore the possibility of salvation without actual membership of the Church by reason of a desire to be a member of the Church. S. th. III 68, 2.
As against the reproach of intolerance a distinction must be made between dogmatic and civil tolerance. The Church rejects the dogmatic tolerance which would concede the same power of justification and the same value to all religions, or to all Christian confessions (Indifferentism); for there is only one truth. But the Church recognizes the propriety of civil tolerance, by preaching the commandment of neighborly charity towards all men, even those in error. Cf. the prayers of the Liturgy on Good Friday.
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott
Membership of the Church is necessary for all men for salvation.
In the Caput Firmiter, the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) declared: “The universal Church of the faithful is one outside of which none is saved” (extra quam nullus omnino salvatur). D 430. This was the teaching also of the Union Council of Florence (D 714), and of Popes Innocent III (0 42)) and Boniface VIII in the Bull ‘Unam sanctam’ (D 468), Clement VI (D 570 b), Benedict XIV (D 1473), Pius IX (0 1647, 1677), Leo XI1I, Pius XII in the Encyclical Mystici Corporis"
As against modern religious indifferentism, Pius IX declared: “By Faith it is to be firmly held that outside the Apostolic Roman Church none can achieve salvation. This is the only ark of salvation. He who does not enter into it, will perish in the flood. Nevertheless equally certainly it is to be held that those who suffer from invincible ignorance of the true religion, are not for this reason guilty in the eyes of the Lord" (D 1647). The last proposition holds out the possibility that people who in point of fact (actu) do not belong to the Church can achieve salvation.
The necessity for belonging to the Church is not merely a necessity of precept (necessitas praccepti), but also a necessity of means (nee. medii), as the comparison with the Ark, the means of salvation from the biblical flood, plainly shows. The necessity of means is, however, not an absolute necessity, but a hypothetical one. In special circumstances, namely, in the case of invincible ignorance or of incapability, actual membership of the Church can be replaced by the desire (votum) for the same. This need not be expressly present, but can also be included in the moral readiness faithfully to fulfill the will of God. In this manner also those who are in fact outside the Catholic Church can achieve salvation.
Christ ordained affiliation to the Church by founding the Church as an institution unto salvation for all men. He endowed the Apostles with His authority, gave them a universal mandate to teach and baptize and made eternal salvation dependent on the acceptance of His teaching and the reception of Baptism. Luke 10, 16; Mt. 10, 40; 18, 17; 29,19; Mk.16, 15 et seq. That those who, in innocent ignorance, do not know the true Church of Christ, but who are nevertheless ready to bow to the demands of the Divine Will, will not be cast out, springs from the Divine Justice, and from the doctrine of God’s general will of salvation, which is clearly proved in the Scriptures. (1 Tim. 2, 4). The Apostles teach the necessity of the Church for salvation by promulgating Faith in Christ and His Gospel as a condition for salvation. Peter confesses before the High Council: “Neither is there salvation in any other" (Acts 4, 12). Cf Gal. I, 8; Tit. 3, 10 et seq.; 2 John 10 et seq.
It is the unanimous conviction of the Fathers that salvation cannot be achieved outside the Church. This principle was extended not only to pagans but to heretics and schismatics as well. St. Irenaeus teaches that: “in the efficacy of the spirit all those have no part, who do not hasten to the Church; rather they, by their evil teaching and their evil deeds, rob themselves of life. For where the Church is, there is also the spirit of God, and where the spirit of God is, there is the Church and all grace" (Adv. haer. III 24, I). Origen formally declares: “Outside the Church nobody will be saved” (extra ecclesiam nemo salvatur; In Jesu Nave hom. 3, 5); similarly St. Cyprian: “Outside the Church there is no salvation" (salus extra ecciesiam non est; Ep. 73, 21). The Fathers, for example, St. Cyprian, St. Jerome, St. Augustine, St. Fulgentius, regard, as types of the necessity of the Church for salvation, the saving Ark of Noah and the House of Rahab OOS. 2, 18 et seq.). In the Primitive Church the conviction of her necessity for salvation found practical expression in her missionary zeal, in the readiness of her children to suffer martyrdom and in her battle against heresy.
In view of the stress laid upon the necessity of membership of the Church for salvation it is understandable that the possibility of salvation for those outside the Church is mentioned only hesitantly. St. Ambrose and St. Augustine admit that catechumens who depart this life before the reception of Baptism can win salvation on the ground of their faith, their desire for Baptism, and their internal conversion (St. Ambrose, De obitu Val. 51; St. Augustine, De hapt. IV 22,29). On the other hand, Gennadius of Marseilles denies them this possibility, except in the case of martyrdom (De eccl. Dogm. 74). St. Augustine distinguishes also, not indeed using the terminology, between material and formal heretics. Thus he does regard material heretics as heretics properly so-called (Ep. 43, I, I). He seems to estimate their possibility of salvation otherwise than he does that of heretics proper.
St. Thomas, agreeing with Tradition, teaches the general necessity of the Church for salvation. Expos. symb. a. 9. On the other hand, he concedes that a person may be saved extrasacramentally by baptism of desire and therefore the possibility of salvation without actual membership of the Church by reason of a desire to be a member of the Church. S. th. III 68, 2.
As against the reproach of intolerance a distinction must be made between dogmatic and civil tolerance. The Church rejects the dogmatic tolerance which would concede the same power of justification and the same value to all religions, or to all Christian confessions (Indifferentism); for there is only one truth. But the Church recognizes the propriety of civil tolerance, by preaching the commandment of neighborly charity towards all men, even those in error. Cf. the prayers of the Liturgy on Good Friday.
po18guy
Well-known member
Found it! Here it is: youtube.com/watch?v=dmsa0sg4Od4
D
DonMack
Guest
JonS … Thanks for that last post. Now for the hard part. What the heck did that just say? Here’s what I heard…All the past Church fathers,apologists, Popes, etc., say that Salvation comes only through the Church but each of them put an escape clause that allows for people outside the Church to be saved. Kind of like having your cake and eating too. Isn’t that what the OP was asking about?
po18guy
Well-known member
Salvation through the Name of Jesus Christ (via faith and water baptism) is the “normative” means of salvation. Yet, God cannot be limited and saves whomever He wills to save. Think of the thief on the cross. Yet, that case is an exception. The rest of us are expected to love our Creator and follow His commands throughout our lives. We cannot and must not rely on some exception for us, as that is putting our Lord to the test, and risks committing the sin of presumption.
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