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Anna_Scott
Guest
Beautiful post, Kathleen. It’s easy to get tangled up in the issues and the questions. Thanks to you and others for reminding me to pray.
Peace,
Anna
- Status
Peace,
Anna
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SteveVH
Guest
Well, I would certainly have to do some research myself in order to find the information for which you are asking. However, I’m not sure it is necessary. I used the example of the teaching of Christ himself regarding baptism. His words seem pretty final and I could be wrong but I don’t know any scripture by which Jesus taught about baptism of desire. It might be implied by his words to the “good thief” hanging next to him but it sure wasn’t explicit. I certainly doubt that if Pope Eugene IV had been asked a specific question, lets say about the eternal destiny of a pagan who had never heard the Gospel, that he would have included him in that statement.
There is a theological truth that taking one’s own life is a mortal sin. But there is a lot assumed in that truth, mainly that the person had all of his or her faculties and simply made a very selfish decision. It does not speak to those who may be under great psychological burden or stress and so the Church, while admitting the basic theological truth, recognizes that there are certainly mitigating circumstances. As the centuries continue to pass I have no doubt that greater light will be shed on other difficult truths as well.
God bless.
Steve
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Indiana_Jones
Guest
I would suggest a few ideas that are sometimes not considered.
First, Christ himself told his followers to go into all the world, preaching & baptizing. As people whose lives are illumined by the True Light, we cannot keep our joy to ourselves. We must let others know of the Truth. And we, having knowledge and light, know where to turn when we sin and fall from a right relationship with God.
Also, while God presumably judges us based on the truth that we have, we know that 1) we are commanded to worship the Lord alone, and 2) we are commanded to live lives of holiness. How many people are truly, genuinely, 100% sincere in their search for God? On the other hand, how many are driven by greed, selfishness, lust, anger, pride, etc.? When people do that which they know is wrong - either in life or in worship - out of sinful reasons, they probably aren’t “invincibly ignorant.” They’re all sinners, and very few of them are true seekers of our Lord. So, we are bringing them the loving grace of God, found in the Church & her Sacraments, by telling them the truth. Though that knowledge of the truth increases culpability, those who violate their consciences, or who do wrong for personal gain or pleasure, are probably not united to God in ignorance. They are sinners in need of a Savior.
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SteveVH
Guest
Well said.I would suggest a few ideas that are sometimes not considered.
First, Christ himself told his followers to go into all the world, preaching & baptizing. As people whose lives are illumined by the True Light, we cannot keep our joy to ourselves. We must let others know of the Truth. And we, having knowledge and light, know where to turn when we sin and fall from a right relationship with God.
Also, while God presumably judges us based on the truth that we have, we also know that 1) we are commanded to worship the Lord alone, and 2) we are commanded to live lives of holiness. How many people are truly, genuinely, 100% sincere in their search for God? On the other hand, how many are driven by greed, selfishness, lust, anger, pride, etc.? When people do that which they know is wrong - either in life or in worship - out of sinful reasons, they probably aren’t “invincibly ignorant.” They’re all sinners, and very few of them are true seekers of our Lord. So, we are bringing them the loving grace of God, found in the Church & her Sacraments, by telling them the truth. Though that knowledge of the truth increases culpability, those who violate their consciences, or who do wrong for personal gain or pleasure, are probably not united to God in ignorance. They are sinners in need of a Savior.
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Vouthon
Guest
My dear brother Steve
It is important to remember that as Catholics, although we hold Sacred Scripture in the utmost and highest regard, it is an equal repository of divine revelation to Sacred Tradition - which is also the Word of God. The Fathers clearly taught baptism of desire.
However, I also believe that it is thoroughly biblical.
Two key scriptural passages:
Rom 2:14-16
“…When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all…”
In his commentary on Romans 2:14-16, Fr. Most explains as follows:
"…Thus far in Romans Paul has used strongly the focused view, as we have seen [that is, a view of man’s hopelessness without grace]. But now he shifts to the factual picture…within which grace is available through Christ, even to gentiles. If they use it, they will be saved.
This is like the thought of Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 16…. This grace is, of course, offered abundantly to all, since (1 Tim 2:4): “God wills all to be saved.” John Paul II, in his [Apostolic Exhortation] Mission of the Redeemer says the same thing…. We note especially that the Pope says they are not formally members of the Church. We will return to that point: they can be substantially members, even if not members by formal adherence.
We began above to show how this works out. The Spirit of Christ writes the law on their hearts (cf. Jeremiah 31:33: “I will write my law on their hearts”), that is, He makes known to them interiorly what is required of them. Those who follow it are, without realizing it, following the Spirit of Christ. But, according to Romans 8:9, those who have and follow the Spirit of Christ, belong to Christ. In Paul’s terms, to belong to Christ is the same as being members of Christ, the same as being members of the Church. 8:14 adds: “As many as are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.” As sons, they have a claim to inherit along with Christ, for they are members of Christ and sons of God. To repeat: in Paul’s language, to belong to Christ is the same as to be a member of Christ. And that in turn is the same as to be a member of the Church! Their membership will be less full, in that they do not explicitly adhere to the Church. Yet it is substantial, and sufficient for salvation, as Lumen Gentium 16 indicates…. In fact, Vatican II in Lumen Gentium says: “All who belong to Christ, having His Spirit, coalesce into one Church.” (The Thought of St. Paul, pp. 174-175)…"
And secondly, from the Sermon on the Mount (Gospel of Matthew 7):
“…Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but **only he who does the will of my Father **who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’…”
This is the very same theology of the “will” underpinning the teaching of Pope Pius XII on baptism of desire and the teaching of the Holy Office in 1949:
Holy Office, Aug 9, 1949, condemning doctrine of L. Feeney (DS 3870):
“It is not always required that one be actually incorporated as a
member of the Church, but this at least is required: that one adhere
to it in wish and desire. It is not always necessary that this be
explicit… but when a man labors under invincible ignorance, God
accepts even an implicit will, called by that name because it is contained in the good disposition of soul in which a man wills to
conform his will to the will of God.”
Its not those who say “Lord, Lord” but those who do the “will of the Father”.
Thats why there are many outside the Church who are actually within the Church in heart, and many within the Church bodily who are outwith the Church in heart as Gregory Nazianzus explained:
“…He was ours [a Christian] even before he was of our fold. His way of living made him such. For just as many of ours are not with us, whose life makes them other from our body [the Church], so many of those outside [the Church] belong to us, who by their way of life anticipate the faith and need only the name, having the reality…”
- St. Gregory of Nazianzus, 18.5 (c. 374 AD)
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Vouthon
Guest
Wonderfully articulated my dear brother!I would suggest a few ideas that are sometimes not considered.
First, Christ himself told his followers to go into all the world, preaching & baptizing. As people whose lives are illumined by the True Light, we cannot keep our joy to ourselves. We must let others know of the Truth. And we, having knowledge and light, know where to turn when we sin and fall from a right relationship with God.
Also, while God presumably judges us based on the truth that we have, we know that 1) we are commanded to worship the Lord alone, and 2) we are commanded to live lives of holiness. How many people are truly, genuinely, 100% sincere in their search for God? On the other hand, how many are driven by greed, selfishness, lust, anger, pride, etc.? When people do that which they know is wrong - either in life or in worship - out of sinful reasons, they probably aren’t “invincibly ignorant.” They’re all sinners, and very few of them are true seekers of our Lord. So, we are bringing them the loving grace of God, found in the Church & her Sacraments, by telling them the truth. Though that knowledge of the truth increases culpability, those who violate their consciences, or who do wrong for personal gain or pleasure, are probably not united to God in ignorance. They are sinners in need of a Savior.
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SteveVH
Guest
Thanks, Vouthon. I am completely aware of the place of Sacred Tradition within our faith. Anna, however, seems to be having a difficult time with the words of Pope Eugene, IV and is asking for specific comments by him that conform to the later teaching of the Church on the subject of salvation outside of the Church. I was only trying to point that while Christ himself did not explicitly teach on the doctrine of baptism of desire, as you have pointed out, the teaching does exist (both in Scripture and Tradition) and this does not constitute a conflict with the words of Christ concerning baptism any more than subsequent Church teaching on the words of Pope Eugene, IV conflicts with his initial statements concerning salvation outside of the Church.My dear brother Steve
It is important to remember that as Catholics, although we hold Sacred Scripture in the utmost and highest regard, it is an equal repository of divine revelation to Sacred Tradition - which is also the Word of God. The Fathers clearly taught baptism of desire.
God bless.
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Vouthon
Guest
Amen, Amen I say to thee!
You have hit the nail on the head! I agree 100% dear brother.
May God bless you richly in his love
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SteveVH
Guest
And you as well.Amen, Amen I say to thee!
You have hit the nail on the head! I agree 100% dear brother.
May God bless you richly in his love
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Anna_Scott
Guest
Vouthon,My dear sister Anna Scott
I cannot speak for Pope Eugene IV, but certainly Pope Innocent III (1160 - 1216) explicitly taught baptism of desire. Only a couple of years before attesting to the dogma “No Salvation Outside the Church” at Lateran Council IV, Pope Innocent wrote about a person who had “who had died without the water of baptism, because he persevered in the faith of holy mother Church and in the confession of the name of Christ, was freed from original sin and attained the joy of heavenly fatherhood” (Apostolic sedem, letter to the bishop of Cremona, Dz 388). The Pope, on a different instance, also taught baptism of desire with regards to a Jewish man who, when at the point of death and surrounded only by Jews, immersed himself in water and baptized himself. Even though this baptism was invalid, Pope Innocent said, “If, however, such a one had died immediately, he would have rushed to his heavenly home without delay because of the faith of the sacrament, though not because of the sacrament of the Faith” (Debitum pastoralis offici, letter to the bishop of Metz, August 28, 1206, Dz 413). In other words, the Jew received the effect of the sacrament by the absolute necessity of spiritual rebirth and desire for the sacrament, even though he did not receive the necessity of means. Moreover, by referring to Sts Augustine and Ambrose and the “learned Fathers,” Pope Innocent also affirmed baptism of desire as a constant teaching of the Church.
These examples demostrate that he did not believe that bodily membership in the Church was necessary, and this goes in line with what St Augustine said many, many centuries before:
“For, in that unspeakable foreknowledge of God, many who seem to be outside are in reality inside, and many who seem to be inside yet really are outside [the Church].” (St Augustine, On Baptism, 5:27)
To this end Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa in the 1400s (a man so prominent that he nearly became Pope) wrote:
“…It is you, O God, who is being sought in various religions in various ways, and named with various names. For you remain as you are, to all incomprehensible and inexpressible. When you will graciously grant it, then sword, jealous hatred and evil will cease and all will come to know that there is but one religion in the variety of religious rites…”
Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa (1401 –1464)
This is to imply that all people of goodwill, of whatever religion, are implicitly members of the “one religion”, the Catholic Church - without knowing it - because they implicitly seek after God as he is known to them through the dictates of conscience. And thats nearly 600 years before Vatican II and from probably the most respected Catholic theologian and thinker of that era.
And what about a prominent Doctor of the Church such as St Thomas Aquinas from the Middle Ages? He clearly taught invincible ignorance/baptism of desire:
“…It is the characteristic of Divine Providence to provide every man with what is necessary for salvation… provided on his part there is no hindrance. In the case of a man who seeks good and shuns evil, by the leading of natural reason, God would reveal to him through internal inspiration what had to be believed…”
Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence clearly affirmed the distinction between absolute necessity as opposed to necessity of means in regard to baptism by quoting from St. Fulgentius’ book On Faith, to Peter where St. Fulgentius explicitly teaches baptism of blood. Moreover, the council also refers to baptism of desire in Cantate Domino by quoting verbatim St. Thomas’s teaching that “As for children, because of the danger of death, which can happen often, since no other remedy is available for them besides the sacrament of baptism…one ought not to delay the sacred baptism…” In the subsequent sentence, St Thomas says, “On the other hand, adults have a remedy in the mere desire for baptism…” (Summa, III, Q68, Art 3). In other words, the Council of Florence acknowledges baptism of desire for adults as a valid incorporation into the Church. These teachings, together with the teachings of Trent, so strongly favor baptism of desire that St. Alphonsus Liguori, a doctor of the Church, said that “it is de fide that there are some men saved by baptism of desire.”
- St Thomas Aquinas (1225–1274)
Such ‘baptism of desire’ can be either explicit (in the case of the catechumen or Jew I mentioned earlier) or unconcious and implicit.
Love in Christ
This is very helpful. I’m trying to go back through the thread and re-read everything. Then I need to ponder. . . .(I do that a lot these days.)
I appreciate all the work that you and others have done on this topic.
Peace,
Anna
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Anna_Scott
Guest
Steve,
Also, very helpful. I do understand that not all things are found in Scripture, and I certainly respect the role of Tradition. I understand your examples of Baptism by desire and the extenuating circumstances of suicide. I do realize that doctrine can be more fully defined as time passes.
It was just really confusing when different people were giving different reasons regarding to whom Pope Eugene IV was speaking and what he actually meant. Since we can’t really say with certainty what Pope Eugene IV was thinking; I asked for any of his writings that might point to invincible ignorance, or any writings from the other Popes who made such stern statements about EENS.
These are very stern statements:
Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”[ccxciii]
Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra: “With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”[ccxciv]
Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra: ” Since however there is for both regulars and seculars, for superiors and subjects, for exempt and non-exempt, one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…”[ccxcv]
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.”[ccxcvi]
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra: “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”[ccxcvii]
Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra: “For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.”[ccxcviii]
Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Iniunctum nobis, Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”[ccxcix]
Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”[ccc]
Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra****: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”[ccci]
Pope Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio (# 2), May 27, 1832: “Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.”[cccii]
Did any of these Popes write anything that points to invincible ignorance? This is not just a question for Steve. I welcome all comments.
Still hopeful,
Anna
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Vouthon
Guest
Dear Anna
I am glad that I could be of some help!
Let us look at an infallible definition from the Council of Trent, whose teachings were formulated in one of the most bitterly polemical and least ecumenical periods in history and yet it still teaches baptism of desire (incredible no?).
Canon four of Trent’s Canons on the Sacraments states,
“…If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them **or without the desire of them **. . . men obtain from God the grace of justification, let him be anathema [excommunicated]…”
This is an infallible statement because anathemas pronounced by ecumenical councils are recognized as infallibly defining the doctrine under discussion.
Trent teaches without either the sacraments or the desire for them men cannot obtain the grace of justification, but with them or the desire for them men can be justified. The sacrament through which we initially receive justification is baptism. But since the canon teaches that we can be justified with the desire of the sacraments rather than the sacraments themselves, we can be justified with the desire for baptism rather than baptism itself.
This is confirmed in chapter four of Trent’s Decree on Justification. This chapter defines justification as “a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of the ‘adoption of the sons’ of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior.” Justification thus includes the state of grace (salvation). The chapter then states that “this translation, after the promulgation of the gospel, cannot be effected except through the laver of regeneration or a desire for it, as it is written: ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’.”
Only actual baptism makes one a formal member of the Church; baptism of desire does not do so. Since justification can be received by desire for baptism, as Trent states, justification and thus the state of grace can be received without formal membership in the Church. The desire for baptism is sufficient for salvation and this desire can be concious (explicit) or unconcious (implicit) - the latter as a result of invincible ignorance.
A great description of this whole concept was provided by the incredible and brilliant Blessed Pope Pius IX of the nineteenth century in his allocution SINGULARI QUADAM delivered on DECEMBER 9, 1854 and in which he wrote:
“…Far be it from Us, Venerable Bretheren, to presume on the limits of the divine mercy which is infinite; far from Us, to wish to scrutinize the hidden counsel and “judgments of God” which are “a great deep” [Psalms 36:6] and cannot be penetrated by human thought. But, as Our Apostolic duty, we wish your episcopal solicitude and vigilance to be aroused, so that you will strive as much as you can to drive from the mind of men that impious and equally fatal opinion, namely, that the way of eternal salvation can be found in any religion whatsoever. May you demonstrate with that skill and learning in which you excel, to the people entrusted to your care that the dogmas of the Catholic faith are in no wise opposed to divine mercy and justice. For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For, in truth, when released from these corporeal chains “we shall see God as He is” [1 John 3:2], we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but, as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is “one God, one faith, one baptism” [Eph. 4:5]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry…”
*- BLESSED POPE PIUS IX, SINGULARI QUADAM (ALLOCUTION OF DECEMBER 9, 1854) *
Blessed Pope Pius IX, in one fell sweep, excllently weaves together the two twin doctrines of “No salvation outside the Church” and “baptism of desire/invincible ignorance”. Pope Pius IX wisely said above that we cannot place any limits or restrictions on “invincible ignorance”, since the human mind is so deep and complex, and there are so many diverse cultures, religions and regions of the planet. We can trust only in the mercy of God, who alone searches hearts and minds. Pius tells us that divine mercy is “infinite”.
Much love in Christ
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
Vouthon,Dear Anna
I am glad that I could be of some help!
Let us look at an infallible definition from the Council of Trent, whose teachings were formulated in one of the most bitterly polemical and least ecumenical periods in history and yet it still teaches baptism of desire (incredible no?). . . .
I posted #131, then found your post. I will read through it. May be tomorrow before I get back to this. I’m really tired tonight.
Thanks to all for the great posts.
Anna
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Vouthon
Guest
“…What is said of none being saved outside the Church, must be understood of those who belong to it neither in fact or desire…”
- Saint Robert Cardinal Bellarmine (1542 – 1621)
- Saint Robert Cardinal Bellarmine (1542 – 1621)
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rinnie
Guest
Hi Anna. You got me there. I thought we were talking about no Salvation outside of the CC and how the teaching has continued to become more and more clear in time.
I must be on a different page or something, I apologize. I know I have not been reading much of the thread this week. My Husband and I bought the house from hell
and have been re-doing it, and the inspector is comming Monday to pass or fail it.You know that show on TV on flipping houses. BELIEVE everything you see. We thought, in and out! WRONG! it became a TOTAL GUT JOB!
This Immaculate Heart of Mary, you got me there. I don’t know much about this
But I promise next week when I have some time, I will find out what this is?I have been a RC for 50 years now! Thats my whole life. And have no idea what it is. I know my Aunt was in something, and was buried in a brown gown or something when she died
Maybe thats what you are talking about?Anyhow, I have a meeting tommow in Church, and if Father isn’t too busy I will find out for you. But if it gets too involved I will ask him next week. Only because we are hoping to get in and out, so we can get to the house to be ready for Monday for the inspect.
But don’t worry I have Fathers CELL number
But I promise I will find out for you what this organization truly is, and what it is about! Just give me a couple weeks okay.Things are really crazy in my life at the moment. Actually now that I am thinking about it, I have to make PIES!
Yes ME, Make pies! for Ash Wed, so I when I drop them off I will ask the olders ladies at the Church.But I wil get you the true facts. So hang low, enjoy the weekend and let me see what I can find out for you.
God Bless you Anna, and don’t quit asking questions!
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Vouthon
Guest
No worries my dear sister in Christ
Please take your time and I wish you a very peaceful, happy sleep:thumbsup:
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Vouthon
Guest
“…It is false that we say to anyone that he is damned. To do so would be false to our general doctrine relating to sects outside the bosom of the Church. With respect to heretics we are persuaded that all of those who with sincerity remain in their errors, who through inculpable ignorance believe themselves in the way of salvation . . . are children of the Catholic Church. Such is the opinion of all divines from St. Augustine…”
- Nicolas-Sylvestre Bergier, (1715 – 1790), celebrated French Catholic theologian
- Nicolas-Sylvestre Bergier, (1715 – 1790), celebrated French Catholic theologian
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Anna, there is good thread on Ask an Apologist today. I didn’t read through the entire link, however, I trust the Apologist did, In relates well to this thread.
Understood, its a time consuming understanding in this teaching which I believe originated from Cyprian in the early centuries.
I still read the encyclicals also as they are very time consuming. Admittedly No doubt that Pope Paul VI was a genuis and unfortuante he is not here to explain at length much of thinkng. Here we are left with Bl JP-II and Pope Benedict and all those who had studied in depth with them or around them, and through them.
Without a doubt the entire CCC must be read, a book in itself, and all the V-II encyclicals. I’ll assume you know any encyclical in on the Vatican sight
The fustration is understood however IMHO Vouthon, Portrait and others have elaborted well. I trust since Portrait started the thread he will keep an eye on it.
Peace my friend.
Understood, its a time consuming understanding in this teaching which I believe originated from Cyprian in the early centuries.
I still read the encyclicals also as they are very time consuming. Admittedly No doubt that Pope Paul VI was a genuis and unfortuante he is not here to explain at length much of thinkng. Here we are left with Bl JP-II and Pope Benedict and all those who had studied in depth with them or around them, and through them.
Without a doubt the entire CCC must be read, a book in itself, and all the V-II encyclicals. I’ll assume you know any encyclical in on the Vatican sight
The fustration is understood however IMHO Vouthon, Portrait and others have elaborted well. I trust since Portrait started the thread he will keep an eye on it.
Peace my friend.
A
A_Gift
Guest
With all respect; I would want to know more and more about the Person of Christ and the blessed Father and Holy Spirit who gives both physical and spirtiual life to the walking-dead; those who the Savior, our Lord, does not know.
Romans 1-8, Ephesians 1-2 and Galatians 1 will give you an idea as to what I mean.
Again with due respect, religious affiliations were never part of the early Chuch; they were either saved by the grace of God upon hearing the Gospel and believing or not. There was no Catholic, Mormon, Baptist, Methodist or any other religious affiliations. No one can even make an argument from God as to church “membership”. You are either part of the body of Christ or you are not - God did not leave any gray areas.
Blessings to you from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
A
A_Gift
Guest
No Apostle can forgive sins because none of them is a) God or B) paid the price necessary to forgive sins; only Jesus can forgive sins. Yes i am familiar with Matthew 16 & 18, but under whose authority-Jesus Christ. Some men in our day claim to forgive sins or give false assurance; especially among the Pentacostal and Southern Baptist, but this is a grave error and they will be judged for it unless they repent. God made the plan, Jesus carried out redemptive aspect (paid the price) and the Holy Spirit and the other members of the Trinity puts it into effect from Justification till final glorification according to God. Titus 3:4-7 sums it all up in few words.
- Status