'Salvation outside of the Church' Revisited

[Portrait]

And secondly, from the Sermon on the Mount (Gospel of Matthew 7):

“…Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but **only he who does the will of my Father **who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’…”

This is the very same theology of the “will” underpinning the teaching of Pope Pius XII on baptism of desire and the teaching of the Holy Office in 1949:

Holy Office, Aug 9, 1949, condemning doctrine of L. Feeney (DS 3870):

“It is not always required that one be actually incorporated as a
member of the Church, but this at least is required: that one adhere
to it in wish and desire. It is not always necessary that this be
explicit… but when a man labors under invincible ignorance, God
accepts even an implicit will, called by that name because it is contained in the good disposition of soul in which a man wills to
conform his will to the will of God.”

Much love in Christ

Dear Vouthon,

Crodial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well and that you had a restful weekend. May I just thank you, dear friend, for your very informative dispatches in the present thread, I think that you have accurately and faithfully stated Church teaching and I am so very glad that Anna has found them helpful to her.

Would you mind awfully, my dear friend, taking some time to answer some questions I have in relation to this letter from the Holy Office to Archbishop Cushing in 1949, condemning the erroneous teaching of Father Feeney on EENS?

Some men have said, not in the present thread, I hasten to add, that this letter from the ‘Holy Office’ to Archbishop Cushing is not an official condemnation from the magisterium of Fr. Feeney’s position because:

1/ It was merely a letter written from one bishop to another bishop.

2/ It was not published in the Acts of the Apostolic See (Acta Apostolicae Sedis, and thus was not an official act of the Holy See or the Vatican office.

3/ Consequently, not being an act of the Holy See it was never signed by Pope Pius XII either.

Now, if any of the above is true, what weight then, if any, are we entitled to attach to this oft cited letter of the Holy Office?

On the other hand, if what we have here in this letter is an authoritative and official condemnation of Father Feeney’s inflexible interpretation of EENS, then surely our case is proven and the matter is closed. The Church has spoken officially and so the vehement sounding exclusive language of documents, such as Pope Eugene’s Cantate Domino, cannot be rigidly interpreted, as some insist on doing, both within and without the Church, to mean that all outside of its borders can never attain unto eternal salvation.

Your comments on this, my dear friend, would be most welcome, both to me and, I think, others as well.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[Vouthon]

My dear brother Portrait

I would be more than happy to assist you in this regard. I personally love a bit of “heresy-hunting” (joke btw!)

Needless to say there are many inclusive, pre-Vatican II magisterium texts that quite clearly refute the position of radical Tradionalists, such that they really do not have any grounds to stand on. Regrettably for them, this Letter of the Holy Office is also part of this long list of official Church teachings prior to the Second Vatican Council.

Sad to say but the Feeneyites are in heresy. There position cannot be held by any loyal Catholic. The Feeneyites sought an official word from the Pope on their teaching, and this is it. Seldom has any error or heresy been so promptly responded to by the Church as this one - and yet they still don’t get the message. Pride is truly a terrible sin. What part of “Rome has spoken, the case is closed” didn’t Fr. Feeney and his followers understand? The flesh is truly weak, brother, as Our Lord said during his agonizing experience in the Garden.

I am well aware of these arguements of the Feeneyites. They reject the entire theological and magisterial tradition of the Church from the time of the Church Fathers to Vatican II.

All of the arguements they express against this Letter of the Holy Office are based upon this heretical website:

webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:V8SRpBKJ3LMJ:traditionalromancatholicism.org/FatherFeeneywasaloyalcatholic.html+holy+office+father+feeney+Acts+of+the+Apostolic+See&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

You will see the identical 3 points you mentioned above on that very webpage. It saddens me that they are still relying on the arguements of this website even now, after it no longer exists (I had to view it through cached - its creators eventually, I am told, gave up the ghost).

In the Letter itself we find this:

“…Accordingly, the Most Eminent and Most Reverend Cardinals of this Supreme Congregation, in a plenary session held on Wednesday, July 27, 1949, decreed,** and the august Pontiff in an audience on the following Thursday, July 28, 1949, deigned to give his approval**, that the following explanations pertinent to the doctrine, and also that invitations and exhortations relevant to discipline be given:
We are bound by divine and Catholic faith to believe all those things which are contained in the word of God, whether it be Scripture or Tradition, and are proposed by the Church to be believed as divinely revealed, not only through solemn judgment but also through the ordinary and universal teaching office…”

As Msgr. Fenton in his book, The Catholic Church and Salvation describes as to the meaning of that paragraph,

“We are dealing, then, with an authoritative document. It would be wrong for any teacher of Catholic doctrine to ignore or to contradict the teachings contained in this Holy Office letter.”

Some background info on the Letter:

It is a letter from the Holy Office to Richard J. Cushing who was then the Archbishop of Boston. Here, this “Supreme Sacred Congregation” (the “Holy Office”) specifically states that they have “followed very attentively the rise and course” of the St. Benedict’s Center and their peculiar interpretation of “No Salvation Outside the Church.” So this is no mere , no hasty opinion a long thought out conclusion, for which the Holy Office here has taken full responsibility. This is a situation that the Holy Office had been monitoring for quite some time.

As Griff Ruby explains:

“…To hear the members of St. Benedict Center, Fr. Feeney himself, his present day successors, the Dimond brothers, and indeed all who deny BOB and BOD, one gets the idea that this letter is “nothing more than a letter from two heretical cardinals of the Holy Office, … to one apostate archbishop in Boston,” as the Treatise describes it. Never mind that one of those “cardinals” (actually not yet a cardinal at that time but then a lesser functionary) happened to be none other than Alfredo Ottaviani, a most staunchly traditional and conservative cardinal indeed, and hardly one to be so easily a party to rank error. Yet we find here in this quote the fact that it was discussed “in a plenary session” which means that all members of the Holy Office were present (and none of them objected? - No, none of them did!). When we claim that this letter was reviewed by the Pope and agreed to by him as to its contents, this is no mere apocryphal story, but what is claimed in the text of the document itself. It makes reference to the standard practice of the Holy Office (as it stood then) that their main meetings were held on Wednesdays and the results reviewed and approved with personal papal approval on the immediate following Thursdays, as this happened here on July 27 (Wednesday) and July 28 (Thursday), 1949. This is no mere formality, nor was it anything exceptional, but merely the Holy Office acting exactly as was par for the course…”

On the 8th of August, 1949, Cardinal Marchetti-Selvaggiani, Secretary of the Holy Office, wrote to the Archbishop of Boston and sent him a Declaration of this Holy Office to be conveyed to Father Feeney, which made clear the sense in which one should understand the doctrine that “There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.”

It was not simply “One Bishop to another”. It was one Bishop sending another Bishop a Declaration of the Holy Office in its entirety, and under the full sublimity of its magisterial authority, with the express approval of Pope Pius XII (in a similar way to how Pope John Paul II approved the 2000 document of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, “Dominus Iesus”).

*(continued…) *

 

[Vouthon]

The Holy Office, as you know, is the same organ as the current Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (previously headed by Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI). This body was renamed the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office in 1904 by Pope Saint Pius X. The Congregation’s name was changed to Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on December 7, 1965, at the end of the Second Vatican Council. On July 21, 1542, Pope Paul III proclaimed the Licet ab initio Apostolic Constitution, establishing the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition, staffed by cardinals and other officials whose task it was “to maintain and defend the integrity of the faith and to examine and proscribe errors and false doctrines”. It served as the final court of appeal in trials of heresy and served as an important part of the Counter-Reformation. Its the oldest, most important and most authoritative of the Congregations of the Roman Curia.

And so last of all, let me refer you to the introduction adjoining this Letter written by the Archbishop of Boston (Cushing):

"…Given on August 8, 1949 explaining the true sense of the Catholic doctrine that there is no salvation outside the Church.

This important Letter of the Holy Office is introduced by a letter of the Most Reverend Archbishop of Boston (below)

The Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office has examined again the problem of Father Leonard Feeney and St. Benedict Center. Having studied carefully the publications issued by the Center, and having considered all the circumstances of this case, the Sacred Congregation has ordered me to publish, in its entirety, the letter which the same Congregation sent me on the 8th of August, 1949. The Supreme Pontiff, His Holiness, Pope Pius XII, has given full approval to this decision. In due obedience, therefore, we publish, in its entirety, the Latin text of the letter as received from the Holy Office with an English translation of the same approved by the Holy See.

Given at Boston, Mass., the 4th day of September, 1952.

Walter J. Furlong, Chancellor

Richard J. Cushing, Archbishop of Boston…"

The teaching of the Church could not be clearer, my dear brother

I hope this has been helpful to you,

Much love in Christ and defend the faith brother!

 

[Vouthon]

My dear brothers and sisters in Christ

I would like to continue my analysis of magisterial and theological Catholic teachings on salvation prior to Vatican II. In this regard I’m going to look at another couple of texts, first of all the old Catholic Encyclopedia with an article published in 1910 (39 years before the Feeney affair, incidentally):

“…But does the proposition that outside the Church there is no salvation involve the doctrine so often attributed to Catholicism, that the Catholic Church, in virtue of the principle, “condemns and must condemn all non-Catholics”? This is by no means the case. The foolish unchristian maxim that those who are outside the Church must for that very reason be eternally lost is no legitimate conclusion from Catholic dogma. The infliction of eternal damnation pertains not to the Church, but to God, Who alone can scrutinize the conscience. The task of the Church is confined exclusively to the formulating of the principle, which expresses a condition of salvation imposed by God Himself, and does not extend to the examination of the persons, who may or may not satisfy this condition. Care for one’s own salvation is the personal concern of the individual. And in this matter the Church shows the greatest possible consideration for the good faith and the innocence of the erring person…She places the efficient cause of the eternal salvation of all men objectively in the merits of the Redeemer, and subjectively in justification through baptism or through good faith enlivened by the perfect love of God, both of which may be found outside the Catholic Church…The gentle breathing of grace is not confined within the walls of the Catholic Church, but reaches the hearts of many who stand afar, working in them the marvel of justification and thus ensuring the eternal salvation of numberless men who either, like upright Jews and pagans, do not know the true Church, or, like so many Protestants educated in gross prejudice, cannot appreciate her true nature. To all such, the Church does not close the gate of Heaven, although she insists that there are essential means of grace which are not within the reach of non-Catholics. In his allocution “Singulari quadam” of 9 December, 1854, which emphasized the dogma of the Church as necessary for salvation, Pius IX uttered the consoling principle: “Sed tamen pro certo…” (But it is likewise certain that those who are ignorant of the true religion, if their ignorance is invincible, are not, in this matter, guilty of any fault in the sight of God). (Denzinger n. 1647)
. . . As early as 1713 Clement XI condemned in his dogmatic Bull “Unigenitus” the proposition of the Jensenist Quesnel: . . . no grace is given outside the Church. . . just as Alexander VIII has already condemned in 1690 the Jansenistic proposition of Arnauld: . . . (Pagans, Jews, heretics, and other people of the sort, receive no influx [of grace] whatsoever from Jesus Christ). . . Catholics who are conversant with the teachings of their Church know how to draw the proper conclusions. . .”

- The Catholic Encyclopedia (1910)
Vol. 14, TOLERATION, J. Pohle

 

[Vouthon]

Baltimore Catechism No.3
A Catechism of Christian Doctrine prepared and enjoined by order of the Third Plenary Council of Baltimore
IMPRIMATURS:
Archbishop John McCloskey of New York 1885
Archbishop Gibbons Baltimore 1885
Archbishop Michael Augustine N.Y. 1901
Archbishop Patrick Hayes N.Y. 1921
NIHIL OBSTATS:
Rev. Remigius LaFort, Censor Librorum 1901
Arthur Scanlan, Censor Librorum 1921

Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person (I) has been validly baptized; (2) firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and (3) dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

Q. 511. Why do we say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
A. We say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, because the necessary conditions are not often found, especially that of dying in a state of grace without making use of the Sacrament of Penance.

Q. 512. How are such persons said to belong to the Church?
A. Such persons are said to belong to the “soul of the church”; that is, they are really members of the Church without knowing it. Those who share in its Sacraments and worship are said to belong to the body or visible part of the Church.

 

[Portrait]

F.A.O. Vouthon

Dear Vouthon,

Hello again. Thankyou for those excellent responses ,my dear friend, Well that ought to allay any concerns anyone may have regarding the postion of our Church on this matter of EENS and the restrictive exclusivist texts. Trust that will help our dear sister, Anna, also.

The Church has only ever taught that it is a wilful rejection of Christ and the claims of His Church, when these are fairly and reasonably presented, that warrant censure. Even then, a refusal to accept may not be deemed blameworthy, especially if there are mental or social barriers involved in a man’s development, which prove an obstacle to belief and a happy crossing of the Tiber to Rome.

As regards the Bull of Pope Eugene (Cantate Domino), unless it is understood against the historical backdrop from which it emerged, it is very likely to be misunderstood and misinterpreted. It cannot be emphasised enough that it is imperative to look at who it was written to and what precisely it was addressing. The Great Schism with the East had occured only 200 years earlier. The Muslims were rapidly moving into Spain and there was still a large pagan influence over much of Europe. Now this Bull of Pope Eugene’s was directed at the Catholic who might be enticed by such influences to depart from the bosom of Holy Mother Church; it was not addressed to the groups mentioned in the bull - “pagans, Jews, Heretics and Schismatics”. In any case, as far as the latter two groups are concerned, one could not be a heretic or a schismatic, unless he had been a member of the Holy Catholic Church in the first place, that is to say a professing Christian.

Thankyou again, dear friend, for your responses. God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[Vouthon]

Dear brother Portrait

Thank you very much for your kind and wise words, which I appreciate sincerely.

I think that you are a wonderful, intelligent and articulate defender of Catholic truth and a true child of the Church both in soul and body. I have really enjoyed conversing with you thus far on this thread, which has provided a fantastic platform for authentic representation of the actual teachings of Holy Mother Church and has allowed for free, loving and considerate debate/discussion and a worthy exchange of ideas between all parties.

For the benefit of all I would like to quote the last paragraph of this Letter of the Holy Office:

“…Therefore, let them who in grave peril are ranged against the Church
seriously bear in mind that after “Rome has spoken” they cannot be
excused even by reasons of good faith. Certainly, their bond and duty
of obedience toward the Church is much graver than that of those who
as yet are related to the Church “only by an unconscious desire.” Let
them realize that they are children of the Church, lovingly nourished
by her with the milk of doctrine and the sacraments, and hence,
having heard the clear voice of their Mother, they cannot be excused
from culpable ignorance, and therefore to them apply without any
restriction that principle: submission to the Catholic Church and to
the Sovereign Pontiff is required as necessary for salvation…”

As you have, my dear brother, brought to my attention the fact that some people on this forum have been proclaiming to your good self and others the heretical Feenyite teaching, I leave this to them only as a charitable and hopeful witness to free, personal conscience.

If there are any on this forum who subscribe to or support the heretical Feeneyite position on salvation, I leave this as a loving reminder to their consciences, which I pray can so very powerfully be conformed once more to the teaching of Holy Mother Church. I pray that God forgives them for sincerely following their erroneous conscience and judges them also to be ignorant of the true teachings of the Church, invincibly and not obstinately.

God Bless and keep all

 

[Bballer32]

I’m just going to throw something in here. This relates to the topic of how not everyone can go to heaven. Jesus says himself in Matthew 19:24 “It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is to enter the kingdom of heaven.”

Just a food for thought

 

[AbideWithMe]

AbideWithMe,
I am sorry for all you are going through and for the loss of friends who suffered so. I think you have a great deal of insight to recognize that sometimes intellectual inquires can be a distraction. I suppose there really is a season for everything. Sometimes, we just need to spend time in prayer and listen to the voice of God.

I have realized reading Holy Scripture and meditating upon the Word of God is very different from searching the Scriptures for a discussion or debate situation.

Sounds like you are doing what you need to do.

I pray God will bless you with peace and quiet time in His presence.
Anna

Anna–Thank you for your kindness.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna–Thank you for your kindness.

I’ve been praying for you. Somehow, I can feel your pain and it leads me into prayer.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Vouthon]

Vouthon----

As Anna has said, you really have done good work on this thread. I’m way behind on reading the posts since I haven’t been home much over the last few days; but in skimming over the pages I can see you’ve dug up some helpful information. Thanks.

Anna has also spoken of how we can get so caught up in these theological issues that it takes away from our simple devotional time. That’s been a problem for me periodically. Before starting to look more deeply into Catholicism and Orthodoxy a little more than a year ago, I was struggling with my attitude towards God in regards to friends who had died in horrifically painful ways. It seems in this life we will get no complete answers to why such things happen. I’ve tried to remain aware, as I learn more about Catholicism and Orthodoxy, that it can be a temptation for me to get all caught up and distracted by these intellectual inquiries into the other forms of Christianity, and avoid facing God more directedly with my pain, confusion, questions, and messier emotions in regards to my friends’ nightmarish deaths.

So, anyway, not to derail this thread, I’m glad Anna has said something about remembering to pray. And I hoped it would be appropriate here (above) for me to throw in a bit of personal information, Vouthon, to give some background on why I tend to be slow in following up on threads I’m part of----I’m listening and following along, and appreciative of the work going into the answers, but I’m also needing to give priority to quiet time in prayer. Mortalium Animos can wait.

My dear brother/sister Abide with me

Peace be with you. I am deeply grieved to hear of the loss of your friends and the great trials this life has confronted you with. Please be rest assured that I am with you spiritually in prayer. May you dear brother/sister, enlightened and awakened by the touch of the Holy Spirit, grow to perceive and understand the purpose of God which underlies these great tests that you are at this moment facing, so that through the fire of this period of testing you may be strengthened rather than weakened in your faith.

Remember:

Pain is never permanent.
St. Theresa of Avila

…the endurance of darkness is preparation for great light.
St. John of the Cross

As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being. Carl Gustav Jung

I agree with you wholeheartedly that we should never allow theological debacles to distract us from our communion with the Holy Spirit - the prayerful, inner conversation with the Holy Spirit which takes place in the temple of our heart.

Do not worry about Mortalium Animos. If you ever want to discuss it further with me, then I am here but do not feel as if you are under an obligation - you are not in any way.

Your spiritual health, your conversation with God, your prayer life - must always come first.

May God Bless and keep you my dear sibling in the Lord.

 

[IgnatiusAntioch]

According to; The Catechism of the Ecclesiastical Provinces of Quebec, Montreal and Ottawa: Chapter XIV. Q.174. Do Baptism of desire and Baptism of blood produce the same effects as Baptism of water?

A. Baptism of desire or Baptism of Blood renders us worthy of entering heaven, but does not imprint a charter on the soul.

 

[Portrait]

I’m just going to throw something in here. This relates to the topic of how not everyone can go to heaven. Jesus says himself in Matthew 19:24 “It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is to enter the kingdom of heaven.”

Just a food for thought

Dear Bballer32,

Cordial greetings and welcome to the thread. Hope all is well and thankyou for the above.

As regards those words of our Lord, you omitted the most important words, dear friend, namely “a rich man”. Affluence is undeniably a hindrance to securing everlasting life, as the rich young ruler who came to Jesus enquiring about eternal life sadly discovered (St. Matt. 19: 22, 23). However, It is not so much having wealth as trusting in it (cf St. Mk. 10: 24) that makes salvation so very difficult; it is as if our Lord corrects his first saying by putting the words “trust in riches” for “have riches” (St. Mk. 10: 23), thus clearly explaining how, and when, riches are so great an hindrance (see I Tim. 6: 9, 10, 17).

God bless and thankyou for your contribution. Coincidently, I was, only a short while ago, dealing with this topic on another thread.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[Bballer32]

Dear Bballer32,

Cordial greetings and welcome to the thread. Hope all is well and thankyou for the above.

As regards those words of our Lord, you omitted the most important words, dear friend, namely “a rich man”. Affluence is undeniably a hindrance to securing everlasting life, as the rich young ruler who came to Jesus enquiring about eternal life sadly discovered (St. Matt. 19: 22, 23). However, It is not so much having wealth as trusting in it (cf St. Mk. 10: 24) that makes salvation so very difficult; it is as if our Lord corrects his first saying by putting the words “trust in riches” for “have riches” (St. Mk. 10: 23), thus clearly explaining how, and when, riches are so great an hindrance (see I Tim. 6: 9, 10, 17).

God bless and thankyou for your contribution. Coincidently, I was, only a short while ago, dealing with this topic on another thread.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

Dear Portrait,

Thanks so much for the response. I looked at the gospel again and apparently i did miss that phrase

See I’m on this website to find and seek my faith. Right now I’m in this Bible study called “The Bible Timeline” (you may have heard of it, Jeff Cavins leads it who is a magnificent understander of the bible) and I’m learning so much about how our Catholic Faith is in the Old and New Testament!

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I do appreciate it alot.

God Bless,

Teenager Bballer32

 

[1AugustSon7]

Steve,

Really, I would need to see teachings of “invincible ignorance,” by the Popes who seem to teach against it. Do such teachings exist from the following Popes; and if not, when was the first Papal teaching on “invincible ignorance”?

I’m not expecting you to answer regarding all of them.

I have quoted Pope Boniface VIII and Pope Eugene IV in previous posts. So, providing teachings on “invincible ignorance” from even one of these two Popes would be a good start.

Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”[ccxciii]

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra: “With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”[ccxciv]

Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra: ” Since however there is for both regulars and seculars, for superiors and subjects, for exempt and non-exempt, one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…”[ccxcv]

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.”[ccxcvi]

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra: “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”[ccxcvii]

Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra: “For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.”[ccxcviii]

Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Iniunctum nobis, Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”[ccxcix]

Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”[ccc]

Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra****: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”[ccci]

Pope Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio (# 2), May 27, 1832: “Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.”[cccii]

Peace and blessings to you, Steve. Good to bump into you again.
Anna

They mean what they say.

Though the subordination to the Roman Pontiff is by reason for Divine Ordinance, following logically Christ’s commission of Saint Peter to feed and confirm His flock, and His promise that hell’s gate would not prevail against His Church, which is headed by Saint Peter.

The Anathasian Creed, which is a Catholic Creed, may also be relevant:

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

I know this though, that Catholic Missionaries to pagan lands frequently raised those known to them who died without Baptism though they had desired it. It often happened that holy missionaries would be summoned because some person was sick and dying and wished to be baptized finally, but the missionary arrived too late. These persons were sometimes returned to life by the prayers of the priest and the faithful gathered, often perishing again shortly after receiving the desired Baptism. From this and also Lazarus we can perhaps imagine certain special souls who might, nearing the end of time, be raised again to replenish the Church, thus confirming before a faithless generation the miracles wrought by Christ (i.e. in Lazarus). Remember Our Lord saying that He could raise children to Abraham from stones if He so pleased? Certain Church Fathers alluded to a belief that near the end of days some great Saint would work miracles, like Moses did, before an unbelieving world. We have no reason, therefore, to doubt or despair.

 

[AbideWithMe]

My dear brother/sister Abide with me

Peace be with you. I am deeply grieved to hear of the loss of your friends and the great trials this life has confronted you with. Please be rest assured that I am with you spiritually in prayer. May you dear brother/sister, enlightened and awakened by the touch of the Holy Spirit, grow to perceive and understand the purpose of God which underlies these great tests that you are at this moment facing, so that through the fire of this period of testing you may be strengthened rather than weakened in your faith.

Remember:

Pain is never permanent.
St. Theresa of Avila

…the endurance of darkness is preparation for great light.
St. John of the Cross

As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being. Carl Gustav Jung

I agree with you wholeheartedly that we should never allow theological debacles to distract us from our communion with the Holy Spirit - the prayerful, inner conversation with the Holy Spirit which takes place in the temple of our heart.

Do not worry about Mortalium Animos. If you ever want to discuss it further with me, then I am here but do not feel as if you are under an obligation - you are not in any way.

Your spiritual health, your conversation with God, your prayer life - must always come first.

May God Bless and keep you my dear sibling in the Lord.

Dear Anna and Vouthon—

Thank you both. I greatly value your prayers.

The painful deaths of friends I spoke of happened more than a year ago, and over the last six months or so I’ve slowly been coming back around to a place where I can live with more felt trust in God, not only an intellectual willingness to live with the mystery of what C. S. Lewis called the “problem of pain”.

To tell the truth, my inquiry into Catholicism and Orthodoxy, while mostly born of a genuine desire to understand, has also been a sort of addiction. People often use one addiction or another to avoid letting themselves feel pain or uncertainty…and in my case, I threw myself into intellectually exploring Catholicism to avoid my feelings of anger and bewilderment towards God in regard to very painful deaths of lovely people.

So, thank you both again for your prayers, but also for your efforts on this thread. I am a sincere inquirer, but at the same time feeling–thank God—more and more of a draw back to a better balance between simple trust/devotion in God Himself while not rejecting the value of the discussions that go on here.

And now back to the thread…

 

[Deconi]

Vouthon,

The 2 or so percent I did not grasp about the inclusivity of EENS, you’ve articulated and illuminated so well that I wish to offer my congratulatory voice to those who’ve appreciated your effort!

I am ‘following’ a Master’s in Theology (pusrsuit is hardly accurate, at my pace) and wish to use some of the material you’ve disclosed here. The ‘authorship’ of various snippets have been very, nay, extremely, helpful in findind the source materials.

Thank you!

Love the detailed exposistions of your thoughts

God Bless.

 

[Vouthon]

Vouthon,

The 2 or so percent I did not grasp about the inclusivity of EENS, you’ve articulated and illuminated so well that I wish to offer my congratulatory voice to those who’ve appreciated your effort!

I am ‘following’ a Master’s in Theology (pusrsuit is hardly accurate, at my pace) and wish to use some of the material you’ve disclosed here. The ‘authorship’ of various snippets have been very, nay, extremely, helpful in findind the source materials.

Thank you!

Love the detailed exposistions of your thoughts

God Bless.

My dear brother/sister Deconi

May God Bless and keep you.

I will pray for the success of your studies and I am glad that my contributions have been of help to your understanding!

Much love in Christ

 

[adoglover1956]

The interesting thing about a Papal Bull is that it is just a declaration…sometimes solemn…sometimes not. It can be nothing more than a letter. It especially does not carry infallible teaching.

 

[adf417]

Well I finally caught up on this thread and I must say WOW!!!:dancing:

Anna, AbideWithme, thank you so much for your persistence and your sincere inquiries throughout this thread. It is people like you that I have tremendous respect for when the “short answer” is just not good enough and don’t mind digging farther with a respectful and open mind. Making the commitment to read this thread was very refreshing, except for a few insulting posts.:tsktsk: I would like to thank everyone who has contributed constructively to this thread.

Fat juicy blessings to you all!!!