'Salvation outside of the Church' Revisited

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Well I finally caught up on this thread and I must say WOW!!!:dancing:

Anna, AbideWithme, thank you so much for your persistence and your sincere inquiries throughout this thread. It is people like you that I have tremendous respect for when the “short answer” is just not good enough and don’t mind digging farther with a respectful and open mind. Making the commitment to read this thread was very refreshing, except for a few insulting posts.:tsktsk: I would like to thank everyone who has contributed constructively to this thread.

Fat juicy blessings to you all!!!
adf417,

Reading through this entire thread was no easy task. So, a big thumbs up to you. 👍 There are so many posts filled with information. It’s one of the best threads I’ve seen here regarding the salvation outside the Catholic Church issue. Catholics really put a great deal of time and effort into answering questions–all greatly appreciated—especially considering the many questions I asked.

Peace,
Anna
 
“…Christ has created the society of souls founded on Him in love. All persons, it is true, do not know the source of the fire that consumes them. Some cannot name Jesus Christ because He has never been named to them. Obscure victims of the cross which saves them, they have not been led from their birth to the feet of Calvary. But a drop of this blood has searched for them across invisible furrows, and mixed with theirs as an aroma of eternal life; they have responded by a silent groaning to the appeal of charity. The Church, therefore, is not alone what it appears to us. It is not only in this visible construction, where all is history, authenticity, hierarchy, virtues and external miracles; it is also in the twilight, in the evanescent shades, in that which has neither form nor memory, sanctities lost to the vision of men, but not lost to that of angels. There is not a single soul besides, however well known, which has not an impenetrable sanctuary, and which does not offer to God, in this holy of holies, a mysterious incense, that does not reckon on the manifestation of this world, but which weighs in the glory of the other. Thus the Church partly invisible; and, remark here, neither is the creation confined wholly to the luminous globes of firmament. It is not alone in the cedars of Solomon, in waves of the ocean, in the wings of the eagle, in the continence of the lion; it is also in the sand of the desert, in the herb that stoops under a drop of water, in the insect which the sun warms, and which it does not see. Love, which is the foundation of the Church, is the most palpable of living fluids; and if the eye of man has never been able to detect, in the light tissue of his nerves, the ambrosia which animates them, how much more ignorant is he of the ways of divine love? Young as you are, then, you know enought not to limit the Church to the visible walls of Jerusalem and to the exterior towers of Sion. Wherever the love of God is, there is Jesus Christ. Wherever Jesus Christ, there is the Church with Him. And if it is true that every Christian ought to unite himself to the body of the Church as soon as he knows of its existence, so it is also certain that invincible ignorance dispenses with this law, to leave its victim under the immediate government of Jesus Christ. The Church, then, has an extension which no human eye can embrace; and those who oppose to us the limits which it seems to their eyes to have, are persons who have no idea of the twofold radiance which is in its nature, raising up for it souls from the east and from the west, under the sun that has gone down as well as under the sun that is above the horizon…”

- Sir Kenelm Digby (1603 – 1665), English courtier and diplomat, convert to Catholic Church
 
“…Christ has created the society of souls founded on Him in love. All persons, it is true, do not know the source of the fire that consumes them. Some cannot name Jesus Christ because He has never been named to them. Obscure victims of the cross which saves them, they have not been led from their birth to the feet of Calvary. But a drop of this blood has searched for them across invisible furrows, and mixed with theirs as an aroma of eternal life; they have responded by a silent groaning to the appeal of charity. The Church, therefore, is not alone what it appears to us. It is not only in this visible construction, where all is history, authenticity, hierarchy, virtues and external miracles; it is also in the twilight, in the evanescent shades, in that which has neither form nor memory, sanctities lost to the vision of men, but not lost to that of angels. There is not a single soul besides, however well known, which has not an impenetrable sanctuary, and which does not offer to God, in this holy of holies, a mysterious incense, that does not reckon on the manifestation of this world, but which weighs in the glory of the other. Thus the Church partly invisible; and, remark here, neither is the creation confined wholly to the luminous globes of firmament. It is not alone in the cedars of Solomon, in waves of the ocean, in the wings of the eagle, in the continence of the lion; it is also in the sand of the desert, in the herb that stoops under a drop of water, in the insect which the sun warms, and which it does not see. Love, which is the foundation of the Church, is the most palpable of living fluids; and if the eye of man has never been able to detect, in the light tissue of his nerves, the ambrosia which animates them, how much more ignorant is he of the ways of divine love? Young as you are, then, you know enought not to limit the Church to the visible walls of Jerusalem and to the exterior towers of Sion. Wherever the love of God is, there is Jesus Christ. Wherever Jesus Christ, there is the Church with Him. And if it is true that every Christian ought to unite himself to the body of the Church as soon as he knows of its existence, so it is also certain that invincible ignorance dispenses with this law, to leave its victim under the immediate government of Jesus Christ. The Church, then, has an extension which no human eye can embrace; and those who oppose to us the limits which it seems to their eyes to have, are persons who have no idea of the twofold radiance which is in its nature, raising up for it souls from the east and from the west, under the sun that has gone down as well as under the sun that is above the horizon…”

- Sir Kenelm Digby (1603 – 1665), English courtier and diplomat, convert to Catholic Church
The universe is Catholic!?!

Yeah, Diggers! (Digby) I hear you!

:cool:
 
The universe is Catholic!?!

Yeah, Diggers! (Digby) I hear you!

:cool:
Yep you got it lol 😉 The Universe is Catholic (Universal) 👍

How are your theology studies coming along my friend?

All matter have mass 😛
 
For those stat monkeys like myself :o

I want to read this entire thread and when you click on printable view and then click the show 100 posts in one page link, you will then get to print/convert to pdf.

Thread_Page 1 is a total of 89 pdf pages
Thread_Page 2 is a total of 67 pdf pages

Total of 156 pdf pages.

To all that have been able to read all of them, my hat’s off :eek:

I will be lurking these pages for the next few days, lol.

In Him,

Jose
 
“…Baptism, therefore, coming from a Greek word that means washing or
immersion in water, is distinguished into Baptism of water, of spirit, and of blood. … But Baptism of spirit is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt…It is called ‘of spirit’ because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Spirit. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of spirit, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, ‘de presbytero non baptizato’ and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire…”

- Saint Alphonsus Maria de Liguori (1696 – 1787), Doctor of the Church**

And yes, if your wondering, this topic of EENS, baptism by explicit or implicit desire, invincible ignorance and spiritual membership in the Church is near endless in depth 😃 We have but scratched the surface of 2,000 years of doctrinal exposition and development…

As Saint Alphonsus explains above, Baptism of desire (or spirit) is de fide - that indicates that this religious doctrine is an essential part of Catholic faith and that denial of it is heresy. The Holy Office also made this clear infallibly in 1949 when it closed the Feeney case 👍

And so the sad truth is that those ‘Catholics’ who claim to be ‘Traditionalists’ and condemn all souls outside the visible confines of the Church to eternal damnation are teaching heresy just the same as those on the ‘Liberal’ side who teach that salvation can be found in any religion but the true and One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and that all religions are equally salvific ipso facto by their very nature (which is different altogether from the Catholic teaching that all religions have divinely inspired truth and are the general means through which Christ touches their devotees by way of those truths and thus saves them, in addition to the truth known naturally to them through adherence to the dictates of conscience. The embracing of actual inspired truth in any religion or within any individual conscience is an unconcious embracing of Jesus Christ who is Truth).

The Church has always condemned both of these heretical propositions.
 
“…Baptism, therefore, coming from a Greek word that means washing or
immersion in water, is distinguished into Baptism of water, of spirit, and of blood. … But Baptism of spirit is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt…It is called ‘of spirit’ because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Spirit. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of spirit, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, ‘de presbytero non baptizato’ and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire…”

- Saint Alphonsus Maria de Liguori (1696 – 1787), Doctor of the Church**

And yes, if your wondering, this topic of EENS, baptism by explicit or implicit desire, invincible ignorance and spiritual membership in the Church is near endless in depth 😃 We have but scratched the surface of 2,000 years of doctrinal exposition and development…

As Saint Alphonsus explains above, Baptism of desire (or spirit) is de fide - that indicates that this religious doctrine is an essential part of Catholic faith and that denial of it is heresy. The Holy Office also made this clear infallibly in 1949 when it closed the Feeney case 👍

And so the sad truth is that those ‘Catholics’ who claim to be ‘Traditionalists’ and condemn all souls outside the visible confines of the Church to eternal damnation are teaching heresy just the same as those on the ‘Liberal’ side who teach that salvation can be found in any religion but the true and One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and that all religions are equally salvific ipso facto by their very nature (which is different altogether from the Catholic teaching that all religions have divinely inspired truth and are the general means through which Christ touches their devotees by way of those truths and thus saves them, in addition to the truth known naturally to them through adherence to the dictates of conscience. The embracing of actual inspired truth in any religion or within any individual conscience is an unconcious embracing of Jesus Christ who is Truth).

The Church has always condemned both of these heretical propositions.
Nicely said. If the usual agitators would take a moment to really, and I mean really, read and listen to what Vatican II was all about, they would discover not only that the Council was not a ill-willed modernist coup, but rather the profound activity of the Holy Spirit bringing the Church into a position from which it can preach the beautiful Gospel of Christ.

I know too many Catholics who take too much time finding reasons why Protestants are wrong. Whatever doctrinal differences exist, and there might be a good number of them that warrant discussion and notice, we are first and foremost called to Christian brotherhood and fidelity to Christ.
 
Nicely said. If the usual agitators would take a moment to really, and I mean really, read and listen to what Vatican II was all about, they would discover not only that the Council was not a ill-willed modernist coup, but rather the profound activity of the Holy Spirit bringing the Church into a position from which it can preach the beautiful Gospel of Christ.

I know too many Catholics who take too much time finding reasons why Protestants are wrong. Whatever doctrinal differences exist, and there might be a good number of them that warrant discussion and notice, we are first and foremost called to Christian brotherhood and fidelity to Christ.
👍
 
My dear brothers and sisters in Christ 🙂
In this respect, there are both “inclusive” Magisterium texts prior to Vatican II and seemingly restrictive or “exclusivist”-sounding ones. This is important to note, since if these inclusivist elements existed prior to Vatican II, and indeed as far back as the Early Church Fathers, then this in itself mitigates the notion. It would lead us to conclude only one thing: The Church started out largely inclusive in terms of salvation and then during the Middle Ages for a period went rabidly exclusivist before become inclusivist once more in the mid-20th century. (snip)

And yet despite this, there are still remarkably inclusivist texts from the Middle Ages, which demonstrate that the Church did not change its doctrine.
The problem is that the “rabidly exclusivist” position was dogmatized, including in an “infallible” statement (the last sentence of Unam Sanctam) and the teaching of a Counicl (Florence). These are the highest forms of authority according to Catholic doctrine. The “inclusivist texts” you speak of do not rise to that level.
 
The problem is that the “rabidly exclusivist” position was dogmatized, including in an “infallible” statement (the last sentence of Unam Sanctam) and the teaching of a Counicl (Florence). These are the highest forms of authority according to Catholic doctrine. The “inclusivist texts” you speak of do not rise to that level.
That issue has occurred to me as well. In order to find out whether we’re interpreting the Unam Sanctum and Florence statements correctly, though, we have to look at contemporaneous documents which explicate what they were really intended to teach about “no salvation outside the Church”.
 
The problem is that the “rabidly exclusivist” position was dogmatized, including in an “infallible” statement (the last sentence of Unam Sanctam) and the teaching of a Counicl (Florence). These are the highest forms of authority according to Catholic doctrine. The “inclusivist texts” you speak of do not rise to that level.
My dear brother 🙂

And ‘baptism of desire’ was also confirmed as de fide by anathemas at the Council of Trent - and subsequently confirmed as de fide by a Doctor of the Church. And so Trent tells us infallibly that baptism need not be by actual water to incorporate one into the Church but by a mere desire, a mental connection to the Church which theologians and Church Fathers prior to Trent and the Magisterium afterwards, has interpreted in the sense of explicit desire and unconcious implicit desire.

And Unam Sanctum and Pope Eugene IV were both correct - there is no salvation outside the Church. However one has to not take these statements and interpret them Himself, rather one must take these statements and interpret them how the Church interprets them.

As the authoritative, dogmatically binding Letter of the Holy Office in 1949 explains:

"…among those things which the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach is contained also that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church.

However,** this dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it. For, it was not to private judgments that Our Savior gave for explanation those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church**…"

Neither your good self nor me nor the heretic Fr Feeney have the right to say what Unam Sanctum and Pope Eugene IV meant by “Outside the Church there is no salvation”.

Baptism of desire, invincible ignorance and spiritual membership in the Church is the consistent teaching of the Fathers, theologians and of the magisterium on how to interpret “Outside the Church there is no salvation”.

As early as 1713 Clement XI condemned in his dogmatic Bull “Unigenitus” the proposition of the Jensenist Quesnel that" no grace is given outside the Church" just as Alexander VIII had already condemned in 1690 the Jansenistic proposition of Arnauld: “Pagans, Jews, heretics, and other people of the sort, receive no influx [of grace] whatsoever from Jesus Christ”. We subsequently have plentiful magisterial teaching from binding encyclicals and catechisms, including those of Blessed Pius IX, Pope Saint Pius X and Pope Pius XII. Thats a straight line of magisterial teaching.

And the topic was closed with the Feeney case. The teaching of the Church on “extra ecclesiam nulla salus” was definitively clarified under the reign of Pius XII.

As Msgr. Fenton in his book, The Catholic Church and Salvation describes as to the meaning of the 1949 Letter of the Holy Office,

“We are dealing, then, with an authoritative document. It would be wrong for any teacher of Catholic doctrine to ignore or to contradict the teachings contained in this Holy Office letter.”

I end once more with the warning from this authoritative document:

“…Therefore, let them who in grave peril are ranged against the Church
seriously bear in mind that after “Rome has spoken” they cannot be
excused even by reasons of good faith. Certainly, their bond and duty
of obedience toward the Church is much graver than that of those who
as yet are related to the Church “only by an unconscious desire.” Let
them realize that they are children of the Church, lovingly nourished
by her with the milk of doctrine and the sacraments, and hence,
having heard the clear voice of their Mother, they cannot be excused
from culpable ignorance, and therefore to them apply without any
restriction that principle: submission to the Catholic Church and to
the Sovereign Pontiff is required as necessary for salvation…”

Rome has spoken. The case is close 😉
 
Yep you got it lol 😉 The Universe is Catholic (Universal) 👍

How are your theology studies coming along my friend?

All matter have mass 😛
Theology? Ah! My friend, slowly, since I study part time as I do not need it as a profession. I am a sifter of evidence, as it were, and have been for a while now. At a young age was one of the first trained/qualified Crime Scene Forensic Investigators here.

My studies have certainly received a boost since encountering you though; hence, my immense gratitude for your ‘servce’ in saving on research time. Much appreciated.

God Bless

:cool:
 
My dear brother 🙂

And Unam Sanctum and Pope Eugene IV were both correct - there is no salvation outside the Church. However one has to not take these statements and interpret them Himself, rather one must take these statements and interpret them how the Church interprets them.

"
😉

Neither US or Florence said merely “no salvation outside the Church”. Do you really contend that Pope Boniface VIII “solemnly declared” something that had already been settled many centuries before? Actually, Boniface VIII uses “EENS” as a premise to develop the further teaching that submission to the pope is necessary for salvation. That is a step beyond EENS. If you don’t believe me, read the document yourself. Similarly, Florence does not just reiterate EENS.

As to “how the Church interprets them”, it seems to depend on when the interpreting is being done. The western church interpreted it one way following 1302, and 700 years later interprets it a different way. Hmmm.
 
Boniface VIII uses “EENS” as a premise to develop the further teaching that submission to the pope is necessary for salvation. That is a step beyond EENS. If you don’t believe me, read the document yourself. Similarly, Florence does not just reiterate EENS
My dear brother SH,

I’m afraid that in terms of being “subject to the Pope” as essential for salvation, you have once again jumped the gun, interpreted the text for yourself rather than study the uses of this phrase by previous Popes and theologians in the Middle Ages, and come up with a personal understanding of the text in opposition to the Church’s. Thus we go from supposition to supposition.

Pope Innocent IV (c. 1195 – 1254) - that’s just a few decades before the papacy of Pope Boniface VIII began in 1294 - understood being “subject to the Roman Pontiff” in a very different way from the personal understanding that you espouse.

Read this, speaking about Innocent IV’s thoughts on “Infidel Dominium” (the Medeival Church doctrine that infidels - people neither Christian nor Jewish - had the right to ‘dominium’, self-government and independence):

“…[According to Innocent IV] the legitimate exercise of dominium did not exempt those infidels who possessed it from being judged by a higher authority, that is, the Pope. Responsible for ensuring the spiritual well-being of mankind, the Pope’s mission to guide humanity to salvation extended well beyond the physical members of the Church. As God’s agent on earth, the Pope therefore incurred the obligation of exercising judgement over all people, according to the law to which they were subject - Christians by Christian law, Jews by Jewish law and infidels by natural law…Pope innocent IV believed that papal jurisdiction over infidels was de iure becoming only de facto if natural law, the law known to all men, was violated…As such, any assesment of infidel actions on the basis of natural law meant that the latter were subject to papal definition. The emphasis on the legitimacy of infidel domnium, the ‘natural right of all men’, was qualified in that it required submission to papal consideration…”

Now, as someonme attracted to Eastern Orthodoxy, you may not like this exalted view of the papacy - for which I apologize in advance - however does it not make better sense to understand the context from which Boniface VIII made his statement rather than interpreting it yourself?

Now let us read Boniface’s statement in the light of his predecessor Innocent’s teaching above which is outlined in Quid super his - a commentary on a decree of his predecessor Innocent III, Innocent IV being himself a canon lawyer. And lo and behold guess who Pope Boniface VIII references in his bull Unam Sanctum in support of his statement that “every creature” must be subject to the roman pontiff? The bull contains writing from the letters of Innocent III! Yes the Pope who outlined the above teaching on the authority of the Pope over the souls of those outside the Church which was subsequently codified by his successor Innocent IV!

**"…Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff…" **

Read in light of the teachings of his predecessor which he references in the Bull to back up his definition, the Medeival papacy believed that it did in fact already posses jurisdiction over all human beings whether bodily within or outwith the Church. This ties in perfectly with the Church’s teaching on “spiritual membership” and further strengthens the Church’s understanding of EENS over and against your own. A voice heavily noticed in the bull is Egidius Romanus (Giles of Rome), who some hold might have been the actual writer of the bull. In his writing On Ecclesiastical Power, Giles voices the supremacy of the Roman Pontiff over the material world. His line of argument states that since the body is governed by the soul and the soul is governed by the ruler of the spiritual, the Roman Pontiff therefore is governor of both soul and body - believers in terms of both, and infidels only in soul.

According to Boniface’s predecessors everybody is subject to the Roman Pontiff whether they like it or not, since his spiritual jurisdiction extends well beyond the confines of the Church as he is responsible for the salvation of all human beings according to the respective ‘law’ which they follow - Christian law for those within the Church in body, Jewish law for Jews outwith the Church and Natural law for infidels.

Rather than interpret this statement in the context of the references used within the Bull itself and with an understanding of the theology of the time from which it ermeged, you have read it with your own personal understanding and have done precisely what the Holy Office warned against in 1949.

This statement from Boniface VIII says absolutely nothing about the necessity of being bodily a member of the Church or bodily subject to the Pope, which the Church has never believed or taught. After all many of its saints, such as SAINT EMERENTIANA, ST. RESPICIUS, the brother martyrs SAINTS DONATIEN AND ROGATIEN, ST VICTOR OF BRAGA - all of whom are valid saints - were never baptised with water but died catechumens - baptised therefore by baptism of desire alone. If the Medeival Church had believed in the doctrine of EENS you erroneously propose, that bodily membership was necessary to be incorporated into the Church, then they would not have been able to publically venerate these saints who had never received water baptism nor were ever bodily subject to the pope.

You remind somewhat of those people who pick verses out of the OT without context, such as conquest of Caanan in Joshua, to depict God as a “moral monster”.

Much love 👍
 
Nicely said. If the usual agitators would take a moment to really, and I mean really, read and listen to what Vatican II was all about, they would discover not only that the Council was not a ill-willed modernist coup, but rather the profound activity of the Holy Spirit bringing the Church into a position from which it can preach the beautiful Gospel of Christ.

I know too many Catholics who take too much time finding reasons why Protestants are wrong. Whatever doctrinal differences exist, and there might be a good number of them that warrant discussion and notice, we are first and foremost called to Christian brotherhood and fidelity to Christ.
👍👍👍
 
PS Schism Hater: yes this jurisdiction of the Popes over all humanity whether within the Church or outside it, was believed by Pope Boniface VIII to be a ministry of responsibility essential to the salvation of the world and all human beings. In my opinion this understanding of the essential nature of the papacy to humanity at large was best articulated in recent times by Blessed Pope John Paul II who travelled all around the world because of his conviction that he was the spiritual father to all humankind. He was loved by Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs and even atheists at times. He demonstrated how essential the papacy truly is - even president Gorbachev later stated that without Pope John Paul II the Soviet Union would never have collapsed. His support and encouragement of the Solidarity movement in Poland was so essential in this respect.

Now I know that if you are indeed considering conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy as you imply, then this will not be palatable to you, however that is a different issue altogether 😉
 
POPE INNOCENT II who reigned from 1130-1143. He wrote to the Bishop of Cremona in a letter entitled Apostolicam Sedem:

“…We assert without hesitation (on the authority of the holy Fathers Augustine and Ambrose) that the ‘priest’ whom you indicated (in your letter) though he had died without the water of baptism, because he persevered in the Faith of Holy Mother Church and in the confession of the name of Christ, was freed from original sin and attained the joys of the heavenly fatherland. Read [brother] in the eighth book of Augustine’s City of God where among other things it is written: ‘Baptism is administered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion, but death excludes.’ Read again the book also of the blessed Ambrose concerning the death of Valentinian where he says the same thing. Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers, and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the ‘priest’ mentioned…”

- Pope Innocent II (1130-1143)

Now Pope Innocent II said this well over 100 years before Pope Boniface VIII and again we see that a man who was not baptised with water nor was bodily subject to the Pope, was indeed said to have been freed from original sin and to have entered heaven simply on the basis of desire.

The teaching of the Church in the Middle Ages could not be any clearer.
 
The teaching of St. CATHERINE OF SIENNA. Jesus Christ Himself addressed the issue of Baptism through a private revelation in response to this glorious Doctor of the Church’s question in the following terms:

“…I wished thee to see the secret of the Heart, showing it to thee open, so that you mightest see how much more I loved than I could show thee by finite pain. I poured from it Blood and Water, to show thee the baptism of water which is received in virtue of the Blood. I also showed the baptism of love in two ways, first in those who are baptized in their blood shed for Me which has virtue through My Blood, even if they have not been able to have Holy Baptism, and also those who are baptized in fire, not being able to have Holy Baptism, but desiring it with the affection of love baptism by desire through perfect charity]. There is no baptism of desire without the Blood of Jesus that is], because Blood is steeped in and kneaded with the fire of Divine charity, because through love was it shed…Contrition of heart is sufficient for this baptism [of desire], the hand of My clemency giving you the fruit of this precious Blood…Thou seest then that these Baptisms, which you should all receive until the last moment, are continual, and though My works, that is the pains of the Cross were finite, the fruit of them which you receive in Baptism, through Me, are infinite…”

- Saint Catherine of Sienna (1347 –1380), Doctor of the Church, Words of Jesus to her (Dialogue of St. Catherine: Baptisms)

Baptism of water, blood and desire (through explicit/implicit will and perfect love) are all confirmed in this private revelation to Saint Catherine.

It is the perpetual teaching of the Church.
 
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