Salvation outside the church

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jimmy:
There is a problem of continuity. It says that protestants are Catholic in so far as they hold to the truth. We could also bring in Nostra Aetate and mention the Jews and muslims and other nonChristians. They are all joined to the Church in so far as they hold to the truth. It makes a joke of the statements about EENS from earlier centuries.
The difference is that PR was talking about those joined to the Mystical Body through “baptism.” That would certainly exclude Jews and Muslims and other nonChristians who have not been baptized. I don’t believe she intended to include them, and it is also my understanding of the document, that it refers only to the baptized.
 
Sirach, I read the documents of Vatican II a few years ago. I read the LG a few times so I have an idea of what was said. I understand what PRmerger is saying about protestants and other nonCatholic Christians. The only problem I have with what PRmerger said is that it is naive. It reduces everything to degrees, and that is not how it was before.
How does it reduce anything? :confused:
There is a problem of continuity. It says that protestants are Catholic in so far as they hold to the truth
'zactly.
We could also bring in Nostra Aetate and mention the Jews and muslims and other nonChristians. They are all joined to the Church in so far as they hold to the truth
What the Church says is that we should look with esteem upon our Muslim and Jewish brethren.
It makes a joke of the statements about EENS from earlier centuries.
Not at all.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not too fond of EENS and the insistence on condemning everyone outside the Church as going to hell. I am just pointing out a problem of continuity that I have had.
That you have a problem is not indicative of a problem with the teaching, but rather with your understanding of it.

As Cardinal Newman said: “Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt, for a man may be annoyed that he cannot work out a mathematical problem, without doubting that it admits an answer.”
 
The difference is that PR was talking about those joined to the Mystical Body through “baptism.” That would certainly exclude Jews and Muslims and other nonChristians who have not been baptized. I don’t believe she intended to include them, and it is also my understanding of the document, that it refers only to the baptized.
'zactly. 👍
 
The difference is that PR was talking about those joined to the Mystical Body through “baptism.” That would certainly exclude Jews and Muslims and other nonChristians who have not been baptized. I don’t believe she intended to include them, and it is also my understanding of the document, that it refers only to the baptized.
You’re right, PRmerger didn’t mention non-Christians. She is making a point about protestants. But she was responding to my posts, which did mention them.
 
Howdy all, don’t want to sidetrack the thread from previous posts, but I have been thinking about this a lot lately.

How does one reconcile what V2 says about being saved outside the Church with the Ex Cathedra statements that have been officially stated on this? As its been said to me V2 did not define any new dogma, so was this just expanded on? Also, is there Biblical basis for other religions/unbelievers being saved?

These are some examples: romancatholicism.org/jansenism/tradition-eens.htm
I think the hardest thing that I am having a problem with understanding is that if anyone can be saved through invincible ignorance then what is the point of the great commission, or converting people?
It seems like the only people who actually suffer from this are those who leave the CC, while those who teach heretical things (Protestants), or those who belong to false religions (muslims, hindus, etc…), or even atheist can have a chance to be saved.

I especially like what St. John Vianny says about there not being several different ways to follow Jesus, there is only one way.

The problem that I have run into with talking to people is when they ask me what the Church teaches about this. I say that outside of the Church there is no salvation but there can be instances where people can be saved through invisible ignorance, but we just don’t know it, it’s only up to God. As soon as they hear this they seem to automatically shut down and think that it’s ok to stay outside of the Church bc they can claim this, they seem to see it as an easy way out.
How are you suppose to combat this?

If the Church teaches it I whole heartily believe it, I’m just a little confused. As a protestant i was ALWAYS taught that no other religion could lead to heaven so they were all damned, so its still a little hard for me to wrap my head around theologically. All of my family is Protestant and I would love nothin more that them to go to Heaven, as a matter of fact my mom, brother, sister, and two of my friends are all starting RCIA in September!

If someone could explain in a simple way that would be awesome!
 
I thinks some popes taught that one must believe the Catholic faith along with all of the Roman traditions (purgatory, authority of the Pope, seven sacraments, veneration of Mary, icons, indulgences, etc.) in order to be saved. It appears recent popes teach that only baptism is required in order to be considered part of the church. It seems the Catholic Church has reformed somewhat and is moving closer to Protestantism and the faith of the apostles and early Christians.
 
Northtexan88, the site you linked to is a sedevacantism website that is rated as dangerous here, with the following notation.
Whois shows the website belonging to Simon Sheppard from Hull. He and Thomas Sparks appear to be one and the same. This individual has been arrested, charged and convicted in 2008 for using a website (heretical.com) to circulate “material likely to incite racial hatred.” He has been sentenced to four years incarceration in Leeds, UK.
Their index page shows a listing of 101 heresies of Blessed Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI. :eek: {among other scandalous topics) Your linked page is full of erroneous propeganda … a very impressive lengthly listing aimed at people like yourself to instill extreme doubt in Catholic teachings.

I will consider answering your post later, but meanwhile, you may want to ask the moderator to remove your link.
 
Howdy all, don’t want to sidetrack the thread from previous posts, but I have been thinking about this a lot lately.

How does one reconcile what V2 says about being saved outside the Church with the Ex Cathedra statements that have been officially stated on this? As its been said to me V2 did not define any new dogma, so was this just expanded on? Also, is there Biblical basis for other religions/unbelievers being saved?

These are some examples: romancatholicism.org/jansenism/tradition-eens.htm
I think the hardest thing that I am having a problem with understanding is that if anyone can be saved through invincible ignorance then what is the point of the great commission, or converting people?
It seems like the only people who actually suffer from this are those who leave the CC, while those who teach heretical things (Protestants), or those who belong to false religions (muslims, hindus, etc…), or even atheist can have a chance to be saved.

I especially like what St. John Vianny says about there not being several different ways to follow Jesus, there is only one way.

The problem that I have run into with talking to people is when they ask me what the Church teaches about this. I say that outside of the Church there is no salvation but there can be instances where people can be saved through invisible ignorance, but we just don’t know it, it’s only up to God. As soon as they hear this they seem to automatically shut down and think that it’s ok to stay outside of the Church bc they can claim this, they seem to see it as an easy way out.
How are you suppose to combat this?

If the Church teaches it I whole heartily believe it, I’m just a little confused. As a protestant i was ALWAYS taught that no other religion could lead to heaven so they were all damned, so its still a little hard for me to wrap my head around theologically. All of my family is Protestant and I would love nothin more that them to go to Heaven, as a matter of fact my mom, brother, sister, and two of my friends are all starting RCIA in September!

If someone could explain in a simple way that would be awesome!
I wouldn’t say this is outside the thread at all, it hits the heart of the problem. I personally think that folks that rely on Invincible Ignorance are already in lots of trouble. The fact that they know about Invincible Ignorance states they are not ‘Invincibly’ ignorant at all. For one thing, if one chooses to put their religion ahead of the truth from Christ (through the Bible and Apostolic Tradition), one is choosing to not follow God but their own desires. Yes, Protestant churches, especially evangelical ones, are more ‘fun’ than the Catholic church. But committing fornication, adultery, doing drugs, etc, can be more fun than both the Catholic and Protestant church too. So why bother with either of them, just go have fun!

Well, we know that there at least three very important reasons to do the right thing and worship through the Catholic Church, first is, you make God happy, second is, it is much more fulfilling and will make you happier than having fun, and third, you will get everlasting life.

For example, my wife is a wonderful person, she is also a Jehovah’s Witness. Is she Invincibly Ignorant? No. She chooses to ignore the facts about the Bible. When it says that Jesus is God, she chooses to explain it away. When I ask her why God would use the Catholic Church to bring us the Bible if they are evil, she explains it away. Yes she was taught this over and over again so it is how her mind works. But she is getting a choice.

With my wife and others like her, there may be a fine line. A point at which they have access to Purgatory, but they have a lot of changing to make to be pure enough to be worthy of Heaven. This, we know, will involve pain, but she made her choice.

As far as those that are truly Invincibly Ignorant, like those in Muslim countries that haven’t access to any of the truth, I don’t know. Perhaps, my Purgatory scenario might fit.

But I too am a bit confused. Is the threat of Purgatory enough to act on the ‘Great Commision’? At the same time, I wonder if those missionaries that followed the Spanish into South America the Romans into Europe, and Europeans into Africa weren’t risking their lives to save these people from a worse outcome than Purgatory.

Also note this website I found, it has some good arguments (if V2 didn’t put out Dogma):
onetruecatholicfaith.com/Roman-Catholic-Articles.php?id=309&title=The+Dogma,+Pope+Pius+IX+and+Invincible+Ignorance&category=Catholic+Articles&page=4
 
St. Donatus’s post …

Oh good grief, another link to heretical teachings, from MostHolyFamilyMonastery!!! What is happening in this thread?
 
I think the hardest thing that I am having a problem with understanding is that if anyone can be saved through invincible ignorance then what is the point of the great commission, or converting people?
Because, to quote apologist Tim Staples, “Invincible ignorance is a bummer.”

It’s like saying, “Why should we give these primitive folks the knowledge of fire? They seem to be doing just fine without it, eating their raw meat.” Well, we want to help them out. They may be able to survive without fire, but fire is a really, really great thing to have.
 
It seems like the only people who actually suffer from this are those who leave the CC, while those who teach heretical things (Protestants), or those who belong to false religions (muslims, hindus, etc…), or even atheist can have a chance to be saved.
Everyone, NT, has “a chance to be saved.”

That’s the Catholic position anyway. 🤷
The problem that I have run into with talking to people is when they ask me what the Church teaches about this. I say that outside of the Church there is no salvation but there can be instances where people can be saved through invisible ignorance, but we just don’t know it, it’s only up to God. As soon as they hear this they seem to automatically shut down and think that it’s ok to stay outside of the Church bc they can claim this, they seem to see it as an easy way out.
How do you know they think this?
How are you suppose to combat this?
By good old-fashioned catechesis. 🤷
 
I thinks some popes taught that one must believe the Catholic faith along with all of the Roman traditions (purgatory, authority of the Pope, seven sacraments, veneration of Mary, icons, indulgences, etc.) in order to be saved.
Could you quote those popes, please, XT? Please offer references.

(And it’s important to note the dates when these popes may have said the above, and when Protestants appeared on the scene. So if you’re going to quote a pope from, say, the 12th century saying things about having to be a Catholic in order to save we have to remember that you were either a Catholic, or a pagan/Jew/Muslim/etc etc etc…but he couldn’t have been speaking to a Methodist, right?)
 
I wouldn’t say this is outside the thread at all, it hits the heart of the problem.
I don’t think anyone has said that NT’s post was outside the thread. :confused:
I personally think that folks that rely on Invincible Ignorance are already in lots of trouble. The fact that they know about Invincible Ignorance states they are not ‘Invincibly’ ignorant at all.
Firstly, who are these folks that rely on “invincible ignorance”? What do you mean by that?

Secondly, the bolded section is incorrect. That’s NOT what “invincible ignorance” means. You cannot say whether a person is invincibly ignorant or not. That’s for no one to determine except God and the individual.
For example, my wife is a wonderful person, she is also a Jehovah’s Witness. Is she Invincibly Ignorant? No
You have no idea whether she’s invincibly ignorant or not, St. D.

.
 
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Northtexan88:
How does one reconcile what V2 says about being saved outside the Church with the Ex Cathedra statements that have been officially stated on this? As its been said to me V2 did not define any new dogma, so was this just expanded on? Also, is there Biblical basis for other religions/unbelievers being saved?
With a backgorund view of your profile, threads, and posts, I can appreciate that you are very faithful and excited about your new experience as a Catholic. Being imbured with a deep spirit of piety and desire to learn, you are avidly seeking in many of the wrong places that will eventually displace this young seed into bad soil and cause you to reject the very teachings that drew you into the faith. Your link is one horrific example, and most likely, you ran across it in someone else’s post and swallowed the camel.

Ex Cathedra statements have only been used twice in Catholic history – that is, the Pope speaking on his own authority “from the Chair” of Peter, the meaning of the name. One was for the dogma of the Assumption of Mary and the other was regarding her Immaculate Conception. After the pronouncement, it become a mandate of our faith to accept these types of statements. All other documents do not carry the weight of an Ex Cathedra statement, but the terms is applied by ill-informed Catholics who wish to intill a weight to their opinions that simply is not there.

They attach this meaning to ordinary papal bulls or encyclicals, which are infallible, but are never incapable of being set aside by a subsequent pope, under the ongoing development of doctrinal understanding and theology from the Holy Spirit.

That being said, Vatican II has issued some teachings on the faith in Lumen Gentiuma Dogmatic Constitution – an extremely important difference from less important V-II documents that “did not define any new dogma.” The teachings from LG are incorporated into the Catechism, a sure norm for teaching our faith. This document was ratified by 2600 participants in the Council, and solemnly promulgated with the seal of Pope Paul VI. There is no getting around the teachings set therein. You may want to read sections 14 through 16 and readjust your thinking in accord with the Mind of the Church.
 
This looks like self-taught mumbo-jumbo, and not Catholicism, QC. I am not following you whatsoever, but I note that your religion says “no.” To discuss it further, you would require a more thorough study of our faith. For now, I’ll pass and let you hold your own truth. 🙂
Sirach: Thanks! Religion is Satan’s plan to counter the plan of God - Grace. Religion is DO - Every religion has you doing something for salvation. Grace teaches us to believe!
Grace teaches that God did it all, it is now DONE. Grace is a relationship - the moment we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ we become a child of God. A blood relationship is established. In grace we become an heir and a joint heir with the Lord Jesus Christ. God saves us, He keeps us and His Holy Spirit indwells us, zeals us and baptizes us into His Body of Christ. What a difference between religion and Biblical Christianity.
Grace and Peace to you my friend.
QC
 
Sirach: Thanks! Religion is Satan’s plan to counter the plan of God - Grace. Religion is DO - Every religion has you doing something for salvation. Grace teaches us to believe!
No, QC. Religion is about Truth. It is about relationship. (That is, indeed, what “religion” means–relationship.)

And I would add that without religion–the Catholic religion–you would not have your Bible.

You have to thank religion for that!
 
QuickCat;:
Sirach: Thanks! Religion is Satan’s plan to counter the plan of God - Grace. Religion is DO - Every religion has you doing something for salvation. Grace teaches us to believe!
And you may remember that Satan also believes. James 2:19. Do you believe Jesus founded a Church with solemn promise that He would be with Her for all ages? It isn’t some nebulous belief system that allows fish to flounder in a sea of multiple doctrines, with only one requirement – to believe. I hesitate to debate with you, for this is a Catholic website, and you seem to want us to adopt your theology. Without a sincere desire to learn, rather than teach, I will entrust you to the Holy Spirit, Who will need to convict you before any meaningful discussion can take place.
 
Could you quote those popes, please, XT? Please offer references.

(And it’s important to note the dates when these popes may have said the above, and when Protestants appeared on the scene. So if you’re going to quote a pope from, say, the 12th century saying things about having to be a Catholic in order to save we have to remember that you were either a Catholic, or a pagan/Jew/Muslim/etc etc etc…but he couldn’t have been speaking to a Methodist, right?)
How about the creed of Pope Pius IV written in 1564? He presided over the culmination of the Council of Trent. His creed seems to be intended specifically to exclude Protestants from salvation. He states that his creed contains the “true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved.” This “true Catholic faith”, required for salvation includes beliefs in sacerdotalism, purgatory, mass, transubstantiation (worshipping of bread believed to be God), veneration of images of Mary, indulgences, papacy, as well as “all other things delivered, defined, and declared by the sacred Canons, and general Councils, and particularly by the holy Council of Trent and by the ecumenical Council of the Vatican, particularly concerning the primacy of the Roman Pontiff and his infallible teaching.”

I, N, with a firm faith believe and profess each and everything which is contained in the Creed which the Holy Roman Church maketh use of. To wit:

I believe in one God, The Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God. Born of the Father before all ages. God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God. Begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father. By whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And became incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary: and was made man. He was also crucified for us, suffered under Pontius Pilate, and was buried. And on the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and His kingdom will have no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life, Who proceeds from the Father and the Son. Who together with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, and who spoke through the prophets. And one holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I await the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I also admit the Holy Scripture according to that sense which our holy mother the Church hath held, and doth hold, to whom it belongeth to judge of the true sense and interpretations of the Scriptures. Neither will I ever take and interpret them otherwise than according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers.

I also profess that there are truly and properly Seven Sacraments of the New Law, instituted by Jesus Christ our Lord, and necessary for the salvation of mankind
, though not all for every one; to wit, Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Holy Orders, and Matrimony; and that they confer grace; and that of these, Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders cannot be reiterated without sacrilege.

I also receive and admit the received and approved ceremonies of the Catholic Church in the solemn administration of the aforesaid sacraments.

I embrace and receive all and every one of the things which have been defined and declared in the holy Council of Trent concerning original sin and justification.
**
I profess, likewise, that
in the Mass there is offered to God a true, proper, and propitiatory sacrifice for the living and the dead**; and that in the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist there is truly, really, and substantially, the Body and Blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ; and that there is made a conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood, which conversion the Catholic Church calls Transubstantiation. I also confess that under either kind alone Christ is received whole and entire, and a true sacrament.

I constantly hold that there is a Purgatory, and that the souls therein detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful. Likewise, that the saints, reigning together with Christ, are to be honoured and invoked, and that they offer prayers to God for us, and that their relics are to be venerated.

I most firmly assert that the images of Christ, of the Mother of God, ever virgin, and also of other Saints, ought to be had and retained, and that due honour and veneration is to be given them.

I also affirm that the power of indulgences was left by Christ in the Church, and that the use of them is most wholesome to Christian people.

I acknowledge the Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church as the mother and mistress of all churches; and I promise true obedience to the Bishop of Rome, successor to St. Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and Vicar of Jesus Christ.

I likewise undoubtedly receive and profess all other things delivered, defined, and declared by the sacred Canons, and general Councils, and particularly by the holy Council of Trent, and by the ecumenical Council of the Vatican, particularly concerning the primacy of the Roman Pontiff and his infallible teaching. I condemn, reject, and anathematize all things contrary thereto, and all heresies which the Church hath condemned, rejected, and anathematized.

This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved
, which I now freely profess and to which I truly adhere, inviolate and with firm constancy until the last breath of life, I do so profess and swear to maintain with the help of God. And I shall strive, as far as possible, that this same faith shall be held, taught, and professed by all those over whom I have charge. I N. do so pledge, promise, and swear, so help me God and these Holy Gospels.

catholictradition.org/Tradition/tridentine-creed.htm

Seems like the Pope was worried people were going to leave the Catholic Church and join Protestant churches so he threatened them with the loss of their salvation and told them they would go to Hell if they dared to switch churches.
 
How about the creed of Pope Pius IV written in 1564? He presided over the culmination of the Council of Trent. His creed seems to be intended specifically to exclude Protestants from salvation. He states that his creed contains the “true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved.” This “true Catholic faith”, required for salvation includes beliefs in sacerdotalism, purgatory, mass, transubstantiation (worshipping of bread believed to be God), veneration of images of Mary, indulgences, papacy, as well as “all other things delivered, defined, and declared by the sacred Canons, and general Councils, and particularly by the holy Council of Trent and by the ecumenical Council of the Vatican, particularly concerning the primacy of the Roman Pontiff and his infallible teaching.”

I, N, with a firm faith believe and profess each and everything which is contained in the Creed which the Holy Roman Church maketh use of. To wit:

I believe in one God, The Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God. Born of the Father before all ages. God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God. Begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father. By whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And became incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary: and was made man. He was also crucified for us, suffered under Pontius Pilate, and was buried. And on the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and His kingdom will have no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life, Who proceeds from the Father and the Son. Who together with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, and who spoke through the prophets. And one holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I await the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I also admit the Holy Scripture according to that sense which our holy mother the Church hath held, and doth hold, to whom it belongeth to judge of the true sense and interpretations of the Scriptures. Neither will I ever take and interpret them otherwise than according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers.

I also profess that there are truly and properly Seven Sacraments of the New Law, instituted by Jesus Christ our Lord, and necessary for the salvation of mankind
, though not all for every one; to wit, Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Holy Orders, and Matrimony; and that they confer grace; and that of these, Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders cannot be reiterated without sacrilege.

I also receive and admit the received and approved ceremonies of the Catholic Church in the solemn administration of the aforesaid sacraments.

I embrace and receive all and every one of the things which have been defined and declared in the holy Council of Trent concerning original sin and justification.
**
I profess, likewise, that
in the Mass there is offered to God a true, proper, and propitiatory sacrifice for the living and the dead**; and that in the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist there is truly, really, and substantially, the Body and Blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ; and that there is made a conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood, which conversion the Catholic Church calls Transubstantiation. I also confess that under either kind alone Christ is received whole and entire, and a true sacrament.

I constantly hold that there is a Purgatory, and that the souls therein detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful. Likewise, that the saints, reigning together with Christ, are to be honoured and invoked, and that they offer prayers to God for us, and that their relics are to be venerated.

I most firmly assert that the images of Christ, of the Mother of God, ever virgin, and also of other Saints, ought to be had and retained, and that due honour and veneration is to be given them.

I also affirm that the power of indulgences was left by Christ in the Church, and that the use of them is most wholesome to Christian people.

I acknowledge the Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church as the mother and mistress of all churches; and I promise true obedience to the Bishop of Rome, successor to St. Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and Vicar of Jesus Christ.

I likewise undoubtedly receive and profess all other things delivered, defined, and declared by the sacred Canons, and general Councils, and particularly by the holy Council of Trent, and by the ecumenical Council of the Vatican, particularly concerning the primacy of the Roman Pontiff and his infallible teaching. I condemn, reject, and anathematize all things contrary thereto, and all heresies which the Church hath condemned, rejected, and anathematized.
To which all of us Catholics here ought to give a hearty :amen:
This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved, which I now freely profess and to which I truly adhere, inviolate and with firm constancy until the last breath of life, I do so profess and swear to maintain with the help of God. And I shall strive, as far as possible, that this same faith shall be held, taught, and professed by all those over whom I have charge. I N. do so pledge, promise, and swear, so help me God and these Holy Gospels.
And this is exactly an affirmation of EENS.
Seems like the Pope was worried people were going to leave the Catholic Church and join Protestant churches so he threatened them with the loss of their salvation and told them they would go to Hell if they dared to switch churches.
You know, I just did a word search and the only place “hell” is mentioned is in your additive.

Nowhere does he mention that anyone who is a Protestant is condemned to hell. 🤷
 
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