Salvation outside the church

[Jehannette]

I think your point was well made and proven. We do know the truth about this issue and thank you for your efforts. Just like with the Bible, people try to make the church’s teachings fit their own beliefs.

One thing to keep in mind is that just as the “opposite of guilty” is not necessarily “innocent” (you have the “guilty, but not proved,” “guilty but insane,” “constitutional rights violated,” “evidence tainted,” etc.), so, too, the opposite of “outside the Catholic Church” is not necessarily “inside the canonical bounds of the Catholic Church.” Father Brian Harrison explains these distinctions here:

rtforum.org/lt/index.html

(See #149 & #150.)

Besides, if “implicit” faith/desire/submission and “through no fault of their own” categories did not exist, then the Church, through her Magisterium, would be requiring canonical Roman Catholics, such as myself, to make judgments about the interior state of other “non-Catholics,” those who were outside the formal boundaries of the Church, and such a “requirement” would force me, as a Catholic, to engage in multiple acts of mortal sin on an almost constant basis. As only the Church herself can make such fallible judgments, the Church would be compelling me and her other children to engage in sinful behavior by not acknowledging the possibility that baptized and non-baptized individuals who are not formally Catholic can attain eternal life.

 

[David_Harrison]

So you are saying that it is very simple, you either go to heaven or hell. If you are a sinful but repentant person, you still go directly to Heaven. You can get in arguments with others, lie, or whatever else, because you were just faithful enough to make it to Heaven. How can someone be perfect in heaven if their personality has big flaws in it? How can Heaven be perfect with people in it that still have these flaws? Or would you say that these are automatically removed from them. Well then, what is the point. Why become a better person when God will do it for me when I am saved.

As far as scripture go:
In Matthew 5:26 Christ is condemning sin and speaks of liberation only after expiation. “Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.” Now we know that no last penny needs to be paid in Heaven and from Hell there is no liberation at all; hence the reference must apply to a third place.

Matthew 12:32 says, “And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”

The same person as in the previously mentioned verse, Matthew, speaks of sin against the Holy Spirit. The implication is that some sins can be forgiven in the world to come. But not in Hell from which there is no liberation; nor in Heaven because nothing imperfect can enter it as we see in the next part. Any remission of sin cannot occur in either of these places because they are a final destination unlike purgatory.

Revelation 21:27: “…but nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who does abominable things or tells lies.” The place that is to be entered (the place to which this passage refers) is heaven (read the text around it for context).

The Bible clearly implies a place for temporary punishment after we die in the many passages which tell that God will reward or punish according to man’s works.

One must be very careful to ensure that one is always reading Scripture in context. You quote three different Scriptures but are using them out of context of the whole passage to make your point. I base my beliefs on what the Bible says rather than implies. God’s Word is inerrant and when we start to build doctrines on ‘implications’ we will be walking on very thin ice.

If you take Matthew 5:26 as written, it is impossible for that individual to get out of jail - ever.

Jesus teaches very plainly about Heaven and Hell. If there were such a place as Purgatory I am certain He would have taught likewise. On this matter I side with Paul.

 

[Jehannette]

One must be very careful to ensure that one is always reading Scripture in context. You quote three different Scriptures but are using them out of context of the whole passage to make your point. I base my beliefs on what the Bible says rather than implies. God’s Word is inerrant and when we start to build doctrines on ‘implications’ we will be walking on very thin ice.

If you take Matthew 5:26 as written, it is impossible for that individual to get out of jail - ever.

Jesus teaches very plainly about Heaven and Hell. If there were such a place as Purgatory I am certain He would have taught likewise. On this matter I side with Paul.

1117 As she has done for the canon of Sacred Scripture and for the doctrine of the faith, the Church, by the power of the Spirit who guides her “into all truth,” has gradually recognized this treasure received from Christ and, as the faithful steward of God’s mysteries, has determined its “dispensation.” Thus the Church has discerned over the centuries that among liturgical celebrations there are seven that are, in the strict sense of the term, sacraments instituted by the Lord.

 

[tomch]

I mentioned earlier that “Apostolic Digest” by Michael Malone was very helpful to me in resolving this situation in my mind. Fair warning, though - you might not like the answers it provides. My wife, for example, refuses to read this book, probably because she has Protestant family and doesn’t want to believe they are in any danger.

The modern Catholic Church is apostate and cannot give a straight answer on the matter (as evidenced by the many different opinions presented by Catholics on this blog). So the solution is to go back to what the Church used to believe before the days of modernism confused everything.

Apostolic Digest is about 160 pages of quotes (Scripture, Saints, Doctors, Popes, etc), and 40 pages of extensive references. (I believe every single quote is referenced.)

Here are some samples (in addition to the 3 ex Cathedra quotes mentioned by the OP):

But though we, or an angel from Heaven, preach a Gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema! – Galatians 1:8

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. – Philippians 2:12

All may be judged who have not believed the truth. – II Thes. 2:11

A man who is a heretic is subverted and sins, being condemned by his own judgment. – Titus 3:10-11.

Therefore, follow the bishops and priests. Apart from them, there is nothing that can be called a church. Anyone outside is impure; he is worse than an infidel. In other words, anyone who acts apart from the bishop and the priests and deacons does not have a clean conscience. For, all who belong to God and to Jesus Christ are with the bishop. Make no mistake about it: no one who follows another into schism inherits the kingdom of God. – St. Ignatius of Antioch - AD 107

Being placed outside the Church, and cut off from unity and charity, Heretics or schismatics could not be crowned in death, even though one should be slain for the name of Christ. Even if a man should deliver his body to be burned, he gains nothing. Baptism of blood cannot profit a heretic unto salvation, because there is no salvation outside the Church. – St. Cyprian - AD 258

Whoever is separated from this Catholic Church, no matter how much he believes he is living praiseworthily, will not have life, but the anger of God rests upon him. The reason is this offense alone: that he is sundered from the unity of Christ. – St. Augustine - 430.

If anyone holds to a single heresy, he is not a Catholic. – St. Augustine - 430.

This is the Holy Church, the One Church, the True Church, the Catholic Church, fighting against all heresies! He will not have God for his Father who refuses the Church for his Mother. No one can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Church, you can find everything except salvation. You can have dignities, you can have Sacraments, you can sing “Alleluia,” answer “Amen,” have the Gospels, have faith and preach it, too. But never can you find salvation except in the Catholic Church. – St. Augustine - 430.

Some among the heretics flatter themselves with claims of martyrdom. But not all who submit their bodies to suffering, even to flames, are to be considered as having shed their blood for their sheep; rather, they may have shed it against the salvation of their sheep, for the Apostle says: “If I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profits me nothing” (I Cor. 1:3). Indeed, as long as you remain outside the Church, and severed from the fabric of unity and bond of charity, you will be punished with everlasting chastisement, even if you were burned alive for the sake of Christ. – St Augustine - 430.

In the Catholic Church there are both good and bad, but those who are separated from the Church cannot be good. For their very separation from the Church makes them bad according to Our Savior: “He who is not with Me is against Me.” – St. Augustine - 430.

All the leaders of heretics have gone out of Christ’s Church to the synagogue of Satan, and they have passed over all together, disagreeing in their opposition to the faith, but agreeing in their leaving it. – St. Jerome.

To be subject to the Roman Pontiff is absolutely necessary for salvation. – St. Thomas Aquinas - 1274.

The unbelief of heretics, who confess their belief in the Gospel and resist that faith by corrupting it, is a more grievous sin than that of the heathens, because the heathen have not accepted the faith in any way at all. Hence, the unbelief of heretics is the worst sin. Speaking absolutely, the unbelief of heretics is worse than that of pagans or Jews. – St. Thomas Aquinas - 1274.

There is only one Catholic Church; this we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins. For at the time of the Deluge there existed only one Ark, the figure of the one Church. And all things outside this Ark perished. – Pope Boniface VIII - 1303

It is a sin to believe there is salvation outside the Catholic Church! – Ven. Pope Pius IX - 1792

Those who are obstinate toward the authority of the Roman Pontiff cannot obtain eternal salvation. – Ven. Pope Pius IX - 1792

People often say, “It is better to be a good Protestant than a bad Catholic.” That is not true! That would mean that one could be saved without the true faith. A bad Catholic remains a child of the family, although a prodigal; and however great a sinner he may be, he still has a right to mercy. Through his faith, a bad Catholic is nearer to God than a Protestant, for he is a member of the household, whereas the heretic is not. And how hard it is to make him become one! – St. Peter Julian Eymard - 1868

Many Protestants have almost the same practices as we, only they do not submit to the Holy Father and attach themselves to the true Ark of Salvation. They do not want to become Catholics and unite themselves under the banner of truth wherein alone there is true salvation. Of what avail is it, children, if Protestants lead naturally pure, honest lives, yet lack the Holy Ghost? They may well say: “We do no harm; we lead good lives”; but if they do not enter the true fold of Christ, all their protestations are in vain. – St. Frances Xavier Cabrini - 1917

 

[Jehannette]

The modern Catholic Church is apostate and cannot give a straight answer on the matter (as evidenced by the many different opinions presented by Catholics on this blog). So the solution is to go back to what the Church used to believe before the days of modernism confused everything.

You forgot this quote from the Council of Florence at Basel (1435):

The holy synod especially condemns and censures, in the book, the assertion which is scandalous, erroneous in the faith and offensive to the ears of the pious faithful, namely: Christ sins daily and has sinned daily from his very beginning, even though he avers that he does not understand this as of Christ our saviour, head of the church, but as referring to his members, which together with Christ the head form the one Christ, as he asserts. Also, the propositions, and ones similar to them, which the synod declares are contained in the articles condemned at the sacred council of Constance, namely the following. Not all the justified faithful are members of Christ, but only the elect, who finally will reign with Christ for ever. The members of Christ, from whom the church is constituted, are taken according to the ineffable foreknowledge of God; and the church is constituted only from those who are called according to his purpose of election. To be a member of Christ, it is not enough to be united with him in the bond of charity, some other union is needed. Also the following…

Complex matters sometimes require complex explanations.

 

[chypmonk]

The Church does NOT teach unbaptised infants go to Hell. The Church does not know what happens to unbaptised infants which is why the teaching is that we trust in God and leave such infants to his mercy.
I wish people would stop saying that unbaptised infants go to Hell because that contradicts Church teachings on this.

Thistle I like your comment in general but you are way off on this
catholicvox.blogspot.com/search/label/apologetics–%20Limbo

 

[chypmonk]

After reading this entire thread is seems that no one knows the correct answer. Pick a possible answer to the originally posed question and you can find it here.

I was taught in Catholic School that there was no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church and the Nuns and Priests were adamant about it. It seems to me that now that the Church is not the feared tyrant it once was that it is constantly rephrasing its teachings so as to avoid offending anyone for fear of losing membership and recruitment power. Membership means income, income means money and its all about the money.

I know the answer but no one wants to know it

 

[Jehannette]

Thistle I like your comment in general but you are way off on this
catholicvox.blogspot.com/search/label/apologetics–%20Limbo

Saint Thomas taught this:

“Children while in the mother’s womb have not yet come forth into the world to live among other men. Consequently they cannot be subject to the action of man, so as to receive the sacrament, at the hands of man, unto salvation. They can, however, be subject to the action of God, in Whose sight they live, so as, by a kind of privilege, to receive the grace of sanctification; as was the case with those who were sanctified in the womb.” (Summa Theologica IIIa, q.68, a.11, ad 1)

The Council of Florence affirmed Thomas’ teachings:

By these measures the synod intends to detract in nothing from the sayings and writings of the holy doctors who discourse on these matters. On the contrary, it accepts and embraces them according to their true understanding as commonly expounded and declared by these doctors and other catholic teachers in the theological schools. (Council of Florence at Basel, Session 22 – 15 October 1435)

 

[chypmonk]

Saint Thomas taught this:

I’ll call your doctor and I raise you a Father, Augustine, said this:
St. Augustine, Letter to Jerome, (415AD), Letter 166:
“Wherefore whosoever tells us that any man can be made alive in the resurrection of the dead otherwise than in Christ, he is to be detested as a pestilent enemy to the common faith. Likewise, whosoever says that those children who depart out of this life without partaking of that sacrament [of Baptism] shall be made alive in Christ, certainly contradicts the apostolic declaration, and condemns the universal Church, in which it is the practice to lose no time and run in haste to administer baptism to infant children, because it is believed, as an indubitable truth, that otherwise they cannot be made alive in Christ. Now he that is not made alive in Christ must necessarily remain under the condemnation, of which the apostle says, that “by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation.” Romans 5:18 That infants are born under the guilt of this offence is believed by the whole Church.”

Sounds like Augustine is claiming it is “of the Faith”-- “certainly contradicts the apostolic declaration” i.e. Universal Ordinary Magesterium-- believed always and everywhere

The Council of Florence affirmed Thomas’ teachings:

Florence does not mention St. Thomas but it does say that infants ***can’t ***be saved without Baptism:
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Session 11, Feb. 4, 1442, ex cathedra: “Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, when no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the Devil [original sin] and adopted among the sons of God, it advises that holy baptism ought not be deferred for forty or eighty days, or any time according to the observance of certain people…”[Denzinger 712]

Also St. Pope Zosimus infallibly defined in his Tractoria:
“It has been decided likewise that if anyone says that for this reason the Lord said: “In my father’s house there are many mansions”(JN14:2): that it might be understood that in the kingdom of heaven there will be some middle place or some place anywhere where the blessed infants live who departed from this life without baptism, without which they cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven, which is eternal life, let him be anathema. For when the lord says :“Unless a man be born of water and the Holy Ghost, he shall not enter into the kingdom of God”(Jn3:5), what Catholic will doubt that he will be partner of the devil who has not deserved to be a co-heir of Christ? For he who lacks the right part will without doubt run into the left” (Denzinger 102 fn.2; 30th edition)

It seems pretty clear.

 

[chypmonk]

BTW Jehannette I think the Florence quote was out of context it was referring to the book of a heretic claiming Christ sinned. papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum17.htm

 

[Jehannette]

I’ll call your doctor and I raise you a Father, Augustine, said this:
St. Augustine, Letter to Jerome, (415AD), Letter 166:
“Wherefore whosoever tells us that any man can be made alive in the resurrection of the dead otherwise than in Christ, he is to be detested as a pestilent enemy to the common faith. Likewise, whosoever says that those children who depart out of this life without partaking of that sacrament [of Baptism] shall be made alive in Christ, certainly contradicts the apostolic declaration, and condemns the universal Church, in which it is the practice to lose no time and run in haste to administer baptism to infant children, because it is believed, as an indubitable truth, that otherwise they cannot be made alive in Christ. Now he that is not made alive in Christ must necessarily remain under the condemnation, of which the apostle says, that “by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation.” Romans 5:18 That infants are born under the guilt of this offence is believed by the whole Church.”

His colleague, Saint Jerome, was not so sure:

“Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” No one is excepted, not the infant, not the one prevented by some necessity. They may, however, have an undisclosed exemption from punishments; but I do not know whether they have the honor of the kingdom."

Sounds like Augustine is claiming it is “of the Faith”-- “certainly contradicts the apostolic declaration” i.e. Universal Ordinary Magesterium-- believed always and everywhere

Florence does not mention St. Thomas but it does say that infants ***can’t ***be saved without Baptism:
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Session 11, Feb. 4, 1442, ex cathedra: “Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, when no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the Devil [original sin] and adopted among the sons of God, it advises that holy baptism ought not be deferred for forty or eighty days, or any time according to the observance of certain people…”[Denzinger 712]

Yes, indeed, “another remedy” does exist but it “can (not) be brought to them”:

“Children while in the mother’s womb have not yet come forth into the world to live among other men. Consequently they cannot be subject to the action of man, so as to receive the sacrament, at the hands of man, unto salvation. They can, however, be subject to the action of God, in Whose sight they live, so as, by a kind of privilege, to receive the grace of sanctification; as was the case with those who were sanctified in the womb.” (Summa Theologica IIIa, q.68, a.11, ad 1)

Also St. Pope Zosimus infallibly defined in his Tractoria:
“It has been decided likewise that if anyone says that for this reason the Lord said: “In my father’s house there are many mansions”(JN14:2): that it might be understood that in the kingdom of heaven there will be some middle place or some place anywhere where the blessed infants live who departed from this life without baptism, without which they cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven, which is eternal life, let him be anathema. For when the lord says :“Unless a man be born of water and the Holy Ghost, he shall not enter into the kingdom of God”(Jn3:5), what Catholic will doubt that he will be partner of the devil who has not deserved to be a co-heir of Christ? For he who lacks the right part will without doubt run into the left” (Denzinger 102 fn.2; 30th edition)

It seems pretty clear.

Unlike Saint Augustine (who changed his mind on the fate of infants who die without sacramental Baptism, as he did on other issues), the Council of Carthage did not follow Saint Augustine and include the word “sacrament” (or, “sacramental,” “sacrament of,” etc.) in their definition:

“But that which Your Fraternity asserts the Pelagians preach, that even without the grace of Baptism infants are able to be endowed with the rewards of eternal life, is quite idiotic.” (Pope St. Innocent, 414)

 

[Jehannette]

BTW Jehannette I think the Florence quote was out of context it was referring to the book of a heretic claiming Christ sinned. papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum17.htm

You are correct for the first condemnation, but the rest come from the Council of Constance, which were directed at Jon Hus.

 

[David_Harrison]

How effective would the US military be if the various branches, even groups fought amongst themselves, fought their own battles without any coordination. That spells immediate failure for any military. Yet we are to believe that this is how God runs his people on Earth. Not even the Bible says that. At Matthew 16:13 to 20 Jesus gives Peter the keys of the kingdom in order to guide his people on Earth. Again in John 21:15 - 17, Jesus emphasizes this. Yet those that disagree with some Catholic teaching try to find some explanation around these scriptures so they can believe what they want to. So until the 1500s, there was one Christian organization in the world and it was the ONLY place the millions on earth could learn about Jesus Christ. Are we to believe that God used a false religion as the only source of truth. Remember, most had no access to a Bible because they were too expensive to hand write. The Catholic Church was the ONLY way the average man could gain knowledge about Jesus Christ. It was also the organization that brought us the Bible. But Protestants didn’t like the rules, so they used the Catholic Bible to make religions that they liked better. They know better than the one organization God used for 1500 years and brought the Bible to us through.

I was a Protestant and after reading the teachings of the Bible and what the early Christians taught, it is obvious that the Catholic church is teaching the same thing. It doesn’t matter what I think, what I want to believe, it only matters what organization God used to spread his truth about Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church has taught the same thing for 2000 years because it is guided by Holy Spirit. We see Protestant churches constantly changing this beleif and splitting with each other because their teachings are those of men rather than God. Why was their one Catholic Church until 1500 and now there are an estimate 35,000 different Christian religions. Satan is dividing Gods military force to fight against each other rather than to fight the true enemy.

But he is only dividing the Protestants because the Catholic church is still the largest single religion in the world. Put all the Protestant denominations together, and they don’t make up a fraction of the size of the Catholic church. No, the gates of Hell have not prevailed against his church and never will.

While I agree wholeheartedly that it is a sorry state of affairs with so many Protestant denominations, it is foolhardy to think there are not many different denominations (different expressions of theology) within the Roman Catholic Church. I know individuals from the most conservative (read Baptist) congregations to the extremely charismatic (read Pentecostal).

I long for the day when we, Catholics, Protestants, et all, will focus on what we celebrate in common - recipients of grace - rather than those things which cause schisms. “The world will know you are my disciples by your love for one another.” said Jesus. Shouldn’t this be the ultimate objective for every one of us?

 

[Jehannette]

While I agree wholeheartedly that it is a sorry state of affairs with so many Protestant denominations, it is foolhardy to think there are not many different denominations (different expressions of theology) within the Roman Catholic Church. I know individuals from the most conservative (read Baptist) congregations to the extremely charismatic (read Pentecostal).

I long for the day when we, Catholics, Protestants, et all, will focus on what we celebrate in common - recipients of grace - rather than those things which cause schisms. “The world will know you are my disciples by your love for one another.” said Jesus. Shouldn’t this be the ultimate objective for every one of us?

The “Church” which you propose is one without a Head.

 

[una_fides]

A sincere faithful Catholic friend posed this question to me and I’d like some clear, cogent responses to his inquiry:

This has been bothering me for the last few years and I’ve come to a point where I really need someone to give me a clear answer.​

On the subject of the absolute necessity of the Catholic Faith for salvation, there is, first of all, the Athanasian Creed, which begins: “Whoever wishes to be saved must, first of all, hold the Catholic faith, which, unless a man shall have held it whole and inviolate, he will most certainly perish forever.”
…
“The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels,’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with her; and that so important is the unity of this Ecclesiastical Body, that only those remaining within this unity can profit from the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”[Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, February 4, 1442]

This truth is taught repeatedly by the Popes, Saints and holy Doctors throughout the centuries. …"the same dogma, with the same meaning and in the same explanation.” The Oath Against Modernism brings out the same truth. The man who takes this Oath makes the following promise, “I sincerely receive the doctrine of faith handed down to us from the Apostles through the orthodox Fathers, with the same meaning and the same explanation (eodem sensu eademque sententia); and consequently I completely reject the heretical fiction of an evolution of dogma, changing from one meaning to another, different from that which the Church first held.”
…
My real dilemma is that I don’t want to believe this dogma. It’s difficult to reconcile with the idea of a god who is love incarnate. It doesn’t seem fair that a teenager born to a Muslim family in Nigeria who’s killed by his parents under Sharia law before he has a chance to encounter Christ should automatically go to Hell, or even that the Protestants we live with who probably have even less of an idea of what the Catholic Church teaches than we do and have never heard a convincing word in its favor are doomed because their great, great, great, great grandparents were self-delusional heretics who followed Luther and because we’ve been poor evangelists. …

I haven’t been able to read through this entire thread, so I’m coming in a little late, but I did want to respond to Riley’s initial inquiry.
Riley,

I think you did a beautiful job explaining the Church’s teaching on NSOC. These dogmatic definitions could not be clearer. Here’s a link to a site that actually has a very thorough compilation of these quotes with links to their full contexts: no-salvation-outside-the-church.blogspot.com/

That said, to answer your dilemma, no one who is innocent goes to hell. If someone is outside the Church and is invincibly ignorant of the truths of the faith, they will not go to hell for not entering the Church. The reason souls go to hell is for their sins they actually commit. Those who are outside the Church still know right from wrong. They have the natural law, and as a result commit mortal sin. One mortal sin, just one, merits eternal separation from a God who absolutely hates and detests sin with his entire being. While God is love, he is also complete and perfect purity itself and purity naturally detests impurity. Archbishop Fulton Sheen explained that “real love involves real hatred” and that our capacity to love is extinguished if we have lost a hatred of evil and falsehood. catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0014.html

We have to hate and detest sin and try to see it as God in his justice sees it. Jesus himself picked up whips and violently threw the money changers out of the temple because he so hated and detested their sacrilegious and sinful behavior (John 2:14-15). Also look at how he condemned the Pharisees with his many “Woes” he directed towards them (Mat 23 & Luk 11).

God also while being infinitely merciful (permitting us to exist after we have sinned infinitely grievously against him) is also infinite justice and any unrepentant sinner who dies in a state of mortal sin deserves and actually chooses (albeit unconsciously in most cases) to go to hell.

So again it’s important to note that invincible ignorance neither saves nor damns anyone. Those souls outside the Church through no fault of their own if they seek God and have perfect charity and perfect contrition will find their way to Him or should I say that he will find his way to them so that they can enter the Church one way or another (in re or in voto). We cannot know with any certainty that anyone who is not part of the visible Church is saved, but we can know that God is justice and his justice demands that if a soul is not guilty of a crime it cannot suffer for it. Souls in hell also suffer various degrees of punishment corresponding to the degree of guilt for their offenses they have committed. So to sum up, God is infinitely knowledgeable and is infinite justice and mercy, so we can trust him to do the right thing and in the mean time we need to do our part to lead as many souls into the Church, which popes have repeatedly described as “the sole ark of salvation, outside of which no one at all will be saved.”

God bless.

 

[chypmonk]

Unlike Saint Augustine (who changed his mind on the fate of infants who die without sacramental Baptism, as he did on other issues), the Council of Carthage did not follow Saint Augustine and include the word “sacrament” (or, “sacramental,” “sacrament of,” etc.) in their definition:

So how many Baptisms do you believe can save?

 

[Jehannette]

So how many Baptisms do you believe can save?

The Fathers of the Church are all unanimous that Baptism of Blood is salvific. How about a mother who is 8-months pregnant with an unborn child whom she fully intends to sacramentally baptize after birth, yet she is martyred prior to giving birth? Are you saying that she would go to Heaven but that her unborn baby would go to Hell?

 

[St_Donatus]

I haven’t been able to read through this entire thread, so I’m coming in a little late, but I did want to respond to Riley’s initial inquiry.
Riley,

I think you did a beautiful job explaining the Church’s teaching on NSOC. These dogmatic definitions could not be clearer. Here’s a link to a site that actually has a very thorough compilation of these quotes with links to their full contexts: no-salvation-outside-the-church.blogspot.com/

That said, to answer your dilemma, no one who is innocent goes to hell. If someone is outside the Church and is invincibly ignorant of the truths of the faith, they will not go to hell for not entering the Church. The reason souls go to hell is for their sins they actually commit. Those who are outside the Church still know right from wrong. They have the natural law, and as a result commit mortal sin. One mortal sin, just one, merits eternal separation from a God who absolutely hates and detests sin with his entire being. While God is love, he is also complete and perfect purity itself and purity naturally detests impurity. Archbishop Fulton Sheen explained that “real love involves real hatred” and that our capacity to love is extinguished if we have lost a hatred of evil and falsehood. catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0014.html

We have to hate and detest sin and try to see it as God in his justice sees it. Jesus himself picked up whips and violently threw the money changers out of the temple because he so hated and detested their sacrilegious and sinful behavior (John 2:14-15). Also look at how he condemned the Pharisees with his many “Woes” he directed towards them (Mat 23 & Luk 11).

God also while being infinitely merciful (permitting us to exist after we have sinned infinitely grievously against him) is also infinite justice and any unrepentant sinner who dies in a state of mortal sin deserves and actually chooses (albeit unconsciously in most cases) to go to hell.

So again it’s important to note that invincible ignorance neither saves nor damns anyone. Those souls outside the Church through no fault of their own if they seek God and have perfect charity and perfect contrition will find their way to Him or should I say that he will find his way to them so that they can enter the Church one way or another (in re or in voto). We cannot know with any certainty that anyone who is not part of the visible Church is saved, but we can know that God is justice and his justice demands that if a soul is not guilty of a crime it cannot suffer for it. Souls in hell also suffer various degrees of punishment corresponding to the degree of guilt for their offenses they have committed. So to sum up, God is infinitely knowledgeable and is infinite justice and mercy, so we can trust him to do the right thing and in the mean time we need to do our part to lead as many souls into the Church, which popes have repeatedly described as “the sole ark of salvation, outside of which no one at all will be saved.”

God bless.

This is an excellent explaination, una fides.

I would like to add two footnotes to his comments:

1. The point is that people outside the Catholic Church do have the possibility of gaining everlasting life, but there is no way to be sure of any individuals state. Once in the Catholic Church, they can be sure, that if they follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and his church, they will be saved.

 

[St_Donatus]

One other additional point I think that is even more important for us to know. As ‘una fides’ pointed out, Archbishop Fulton Sheen explained that “real love involves real hatred” and that our capacity to love is extinguished if we have lost a hatred of evil and falsehood. Today the Catholic Church teaches what ‘evil’ is, perhaps it doesn’t teach it loud enough for my taste, but it does teach it. Today we see though that our society is fallen into a state of relativism. Evil is no longer evil, it is just a choice. Every year we see how things that would have caused God to destroy civilizations and cities such as Sodom and Gomorrah, are made to seem not ‘evil’ but good. One example is immorality which we know GOD hates. (This can be living together, one night stands, homosexual relations, etc.)

More importantly, the lack of a hatred of evil and sin, as well as the deadening of modern man’s consciences through relativism, drives a wedge between God and most people out there today. The Catholic Church has the numbers and power to evangelize these people, to help them see that they are, in fact, doing sin and evil. Most people at some point may not be involved in immorality or other forms of serious sin today, but they accept it as normal. They even encourage it. We can see how the modern media encourages this attitude and how it has polluted even my mind in the past. Thank God, the teachings of the Catholic Church reached my heart, or I too would be seperated from God.

 

[antunesaa]

I mentioned earlier that “Apostolic Digest” by Michael Malone was very helpful to me in resolving this situation in my mind. Fair warning, though - you might not like the answers it provides. My wife, for example, refuses to read this book, probably because she has Protestant family and doesn’t want to believe they are in any danger.

The modern Catholic Church is apostate and cannot give a straight answer on the matter (as evidenced by the many different opinions presented by Catholics on this blog). So the solution is to go back to what the Church used to believe before the days of modernism confused everything.

Apostolic Digest is about 160 pages of quotes (Scripture, Saints, Doctors, Popes, etc), and 40 pages of extensive references. (I believe every single quote is referenced.)

Here are some samples (in addition to the 3 ex Cathedra quotes mentioned by the OP):

But though we, or an angel from Heaven, preach a Gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema! – Galatians 1:8

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. – Philippians 2:12

All may be judged who have not believed the truth. – II Thes. 2:11

A man who is a heretic is subverted and sins, being condemned by his own judgment. – Titus 3:10-11.

Therefore, follow the bishops and priests. Apart from them, there is nothing that can be called a church. Anyone outside is impure; he is worse than an infidel. In other words, anyone who acts apart from the bishop and the priests and deacons does not have a clean conscience. For, all who belong to God and to Jesus Christ are with the bishop. Make no mistake about it: no one who follows another into schism inherits the kingdom of God. – St. Ignatius of Antioch - AD 107

Being placed outside the Church, and cut off from unity and charity, Heretics or schismatics could not be crowned in death, even though one should be slain for the name of Christ. Even if a man should deliver his body to be burned, he gains nothing. Baptism of blood cannot profit a heretic unto salvation, because there is no salvation outside the Church. – St. Cyprian - AD 258

Whoever is separated from this Catholic Church, no matter how much he believes he is living praiseworthily, will not have life, but the anger of God rests upon him. The reason is this offense alone: that he is sundered from the unity of Christ. – St. Augustine - 430.

If anyone holds to a single heresy, he is not a Catholic. – St. Augustine - 430.

This is the Holy Church, the One Church, the True Church, the Catholic Church, fighting against all heresies! He will not have God for his Father who refuses the Church for his Mother. No one can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Church, you can find everything except salvation. You can have dignities, you can have Sacraments, you can sing “Alleluia,” answer “Amen,” have the Gospels, have faith and preach it, too. But never can you find salvation except in the Catholic Church. – St. Augustine - 430.

Some among the heretics flatter themselves with claims of martyrdom. But not all who submit their bodies to suffering, even to flames, are to be considered as having shed their blood for their sheep; rather, they may have shed it against the salvation of their sheep, for the Apostle says: “If I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profits me nothing” (I Cor. 1:3). Indeed, as long as you remain outside the Church, and severed from the fabric of unity and bond of charity, you will be punished with everlasting chastisement, even if you were burned alive for the sake of Christ. – St Augustine - 430.

In the Catholic Church there are both good and bad, but those who are separated from the Church cannot be good. For their very separation from the Church makes them bad according to Our Savior: “He who is not with Me is against Me.” – St. Augustine - 430.

All the leaders of heretics have gone out of Christ’s Church to the synagogue of Satan, and they have passed over all together, disagreeing in their opposition to the faith, but agreeing in their leaving it. – St. Jerome.

To be subject to the Roman Pontiff is absolutely necessary for salvation. – St. Thomas Aquinas - 1274.

The unbelief of heretics, who confess their belief in the Gospel and resist that faith by corrupting it, is a more grievous sin than that of the heathens, because the heathen have not accepted the faith in any way at all. Hence, the unbelief of heretics is the worst sin. Speaking absolutely, the unbelief of heretics is worse than that of pagans or Jews. – St. Thomas Aquinas - 1274.

There is only one Catholic Church; this we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins. For at the time of the Deluge there existed only one Ark, the figure of the one Church. And all things outside this Ark perished. – Pope Boniface VIII - 1303

It is a sin to believe there is salvation outside the Catholic Church! – Ven. Pope Pius IX - 1792

Those who are obstinate toward the authority of the Roman Pontiff cannot obtain eternal salvation. – Ven. Pope Pius IX - 1792

People often say, “It is better to be a good Protestant than a bad Catholic.” That is not true! That would mean that one could be saved without the true faith. A bad Catholic remains a child of the family, although a prodigal; and however great a sinner he may be, he still has a right to mercy. Through his faith, a bad Catholic is nearer to God than a Protestant, for he is a member of the household, whereas the heretic is not. And how hard it is to make him become one! – St. Peter Julian Eymard - 1868

Many Protestants have almost the same practices as we, only they do not submit to the Holy Father and attach themselves to the true Ark of Salvation. They do not want to become Catholics and unite themselves under the banner of truth wherein alone there is true salvation. Of what avail is it, children, if Protestants lead naturally pure, honest lives, yet lack the Holy Ghost? They may well say: “We do no harm; we lead good lives”; but if they do not enter the true fold of Christ, all their protestations are in vain. – St. Frances Xavier Cabrini - 1917

Saints can say wrong things, and some did. I submit to the Church’s infallible teachings. If the Church says that there is no salvation outside the Church, I believe her. If the Church details a bit further what that means, I obey even if I have doubts. O try to understand the Church’s teachings. What I will never do is to allege that, for instance, Vatican II was not valid and the Popes from then on are impostors, just because my interpretation of some teachings (infallible or not) do not overlap completely with those of the Church. In the citations above, the single most important idea is that one should not despise the Pope’s authority. That is the ultimate sin against the Church.