Salvation outside the church

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Hamlet123 said:
So, how does one reconcile Florence with the clear statement from the current catechism?!:eek:
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I already posted about this. Just as the opposite of “guilty” is not necessarily “innocent” (you have “not proved,” “not guilty by reason of insanity,” etc.), so, too, the opposite of “outside” the Catholic Church is not necessarily “within the canonical boundaries” of the Catholic Church. There is, in fact, a “third” category.
 
Jehannette said:
Here’s the syllogism:

Major Premise: There is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ and His Mystical Body.

Minor Premise: The “Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.” (Humani Generis, 27)

Conclusion: There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
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The first part of logic is to avoid ambiguity. I think that this has happened in the sylogism. The words “Mystical Body of Christ and Roman Catholic Church” are not clearly defined. Especially when one considers that the CCC says that one could be considered a Catholic if he has the deposition to do as a Catholioc would.👍
 
Jehannette said:
I already posted about this. Just as the opposite of “guilty” is not necessarily “innocent” (you have “not proved,” “not guilty by reason of insanity,” etc.), so, too, the opposite of “outside” the Catholic Church is not necessarily “within the canonical boundaries” of the Catholic Church. There is, in fact, a “third” category.
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I am lost!!!:eek::eek:
I can not follow your reasoning. Can you take each paragraph in the current CCC and respond then respond?
 
Hamlet123 said:
I am lost!!!:eek::eek:
I can not follow your reasoning. Can you take each paragraph in the current CCC and respond then respond?
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An individual can be joined to the “soul” of the Catholic Church. For instance, an infant validly baptized in, say, a Lutheran church is not a formal member of the Catholic Church and lacks canonical standing, even though he/she is, unquestionably, in a state of grace, but that person is, nevertheless, joined to soul of the Catholic Church via the bonds of sacramental Baptism. Of course, this is not the only example of such “implicit” membership. Ultimately, it is for Christ alone to judge.
 
gerry_clark said:
The Roman Catholic Church recognizes one Baptism. As long as the Baptism was done
with water and in the name of the Trinity, the Catholic Church recognizes the Baptism.

The Mystical Body of Christ is made up of Jesus’ church, which includes the Catholic Chruch and all of the divisions that were caused by the abuses of power andf authority
by the humans who, primarily for their own worldly gain, were respnsible for such divisions.

If we believe in an all compassionate and all loving God, then we have to recognize that He
would not abandon one whom He created simply because they were taught to pay their temple tax to a Buddist Temple rather than a Hebrew Temple or a Christian Church. We
refer to these people who follow God as being members of the Communion of Saints.

We recognize Ghandi, a Hindu, as a 20th century prophet. We recognize Martin Luther
King Jr., a Baptist as a 20th century prophet. If these men were the voice of God how
can they be denied salvation. God will not deny them salvation.God does not care if
the Magisterium’s collection basket was enriched by their work. God’s glory was en-
riched by their work. They brought many more people to God than many of the Mag-
isterium. They have met the criteria of universal salvation.
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What you have said is tantamount to heresy.
Apart from the saints recognised by the Church we have no idea who is in Heaven and we most certainly cannot make a statement declaring any individual has been saved.
 
Jehannette said:
Here’s the syllogism:

Major Premise: There is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ and His Mystical Body.

Minor Premise: The “Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.” (Humani Generis, 27)

Conclusion: There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
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Major Premise forgets that Jesus Christ is God.
Note: God is the Maker of all things visible and invisible.

Major Premise forgets what happened when Adam, the creature, shattered his relationship with his Creator.

Major Premise forgets other things; however, the above should be dealt with first.
 
I would say to those that doubt the Catholic Church has the authority to make Dogma (and make rulings of Salvation Outside the Church), this fact. If we believe in an all powerful God and Jesus Christ, we must also believe the teachings of Christ completely. Those that did not believe completely, Jesus rejected.

Jesus promised the guidance of his Church with Holy Spirit. He also gave the Keys the the Kingdom to Peter and his early Church. They were the first Catholics. We also know that Jesus promised him that the gates of Hell would never overpower it, that those given authority in the Church had the authority to ‘bind things on earth and they would be bound in heaven’. We also know that the core beliefs of the Catholic church have never changed. This in itself is a proof of the inspiration and guidance by Holy Spirit, for if one changes a belief, does not that mean that the belief being changed was not from God because we know God does not change.

Given these facts, if one claims to be Catholic and does not CHOOSE to believe all the core teachings of the Catholic Church are true, why do you continue to be Catholic? You are already a protestant at heart, their are 35,000 different options available to you out there.

The problem is, you will be leaving Jesus chosen vessel of salvation. The problem is, we want to rely on our own thinking. Just because something seems logical in our own mind doesn’t make it so. Extermination of the Jews was perfectly correct in Hitlers mind, but it wasn’t. We MUST rely on a higher authority.

I left the church as a young man and searched for that truth in many of those ‘Protestant’ churches as well as some eastern religions. When it was all done, I realized I was allowing my own desires and thinking to guide me. My ideas are nothing, it is only Gods ideas that matter. There is only one religion that has stayed united over the centuries and that is the Catholic Church. It is a billion strong and has a direct line of history leading to Jesus Christ. What more do I need? I leave my soul in the hands of God.
 
Jehannette said:
An individual can be joined to the “soul” of the Catholic Church. For instance, an infant validly baptized in, say, a Lutheran church is not a formal member of the Catholic Church and lacks canonical standing, even though he/she is, unquestionably, in a state of grace, but that person is, nevertheless, joined to soul of the Catholic Church via the bonds of sacramental Baptism. Of course, this is not the only example of such “implicit” membership. Ultimately, it is for Christ alone to judge.
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So this infant, although not in complete union with the church, is a Catholic assuming this infant has had a trinitarian baptism. Yes?
 
Hamlet123 said:
So this infant, although not in complete union with the church, is a Catholic assuming this infant has had a trinitarian baptism. Yes?
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An “implicit Catholic,” yes, but more formerly, a non-Catholic Christian. If, later on, the child would grow to obstinately deny and/or doubt a dogma of the Catholic Faith and/or refuse submission to the Roman Pontiff in a culpable manner before the Triune God, then he/she would be a heretic and/or schismatic.
 
Jehannette said:
Here’s the syllogism:

Major Premise: There is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ and His Mystical Body.

Minor Premise: The “Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.” (Humani Generis, 27)

Conclusion: There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
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Pardon me. But I am still having trouble with this popular syllogism which I have seen in one form or another.

The Major Premise seems to sidestep the Catholic doctrine found in Romans 5: 12-21 which directs one’s attention to the real Original Sin which shattered Adam’s relationship with his Creator. Is this observation correct?

Regarding the Minor Premise. While the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing, it is the head of the Mystical Body through the Holy Spirit Who offers to all humanity the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Pascal mystery. Source: footnote 63 in section “The Necessity of Baptism” paragraphs 1257-1261 (which need to be read in their entirety) *Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. *

The Conclusion seems to sidestep the broader picture that God alone knows what is happening in the soul of the individual at any given moment.
 
grannymh said:
Pardon me. But I am still having trouble with this popular syllogism which I have seen in one form or another.

The Major Premise seems to sidestep the Catholic doctrine found in Romans 5: 12-21 which directs one’s attention to the real Original Sin which shattered Adam’s relationship with his Creator. Is this observation correct?

Regarding the Minor Premise. While the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing, it is the head of the Mystical Body through the Holy Spirit Who offers to all humanity the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Pascal mystery. Source: footnote 63 in section “The Necessity of Baptism” paragraphs 1257-1261 (which need to be read in their entirety) *Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. *

The Conclusion seems to sidestep the broader picture that God alone knows what is happening in the soul of the individual at any given moment.
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Excellent response:thumbsup:👍👍
 
grannymh said:
The Conclusion seems to sidestep the broader picture that God alone knows what is happening in the soul of the individual at any given moment.
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I do not believe that anyone here has made any claims to such knowledge.
 
Originally Posted by grannymh forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
The Conclusion seems to sidestep the broader picture that God alone knows what is happening in the soul of the individual at any given moment.
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Jehannette said:
I do not believe that anyone here has made any claims to such knowledge.
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What is being sidestepped is the knowledge itself, not claims by CAF members, that God alone knows what is happening in the soul of the individual. It is this knowledge which, somehow, appears to be neglected in the “Conclusion”. Because of difficulty with the Catholic doctrines regarding Original Sin, some, not all, people do not consider the bigger picture of Romans, Chapter 5: 12 -21. Please note that these verses emphasize the Jesus Christ is the only one Who has the power to bring about salvation for humankind.

This is why I am having trouble with the syllogism in post 152.
 
St_Donatus said:
This is an excellent explaination, una fides.

I would like to add two footnotes to his comments:
  1. The point is that people outside the Catholic Church do have the possibility of gaining everlasting life, but there is no way to be sure of any individuals state. Once in the Catholic Church, they can be sure, that if they follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and his church, they will be saved.
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Not exactly. There is no salvation outside the Church. That is the Church’s teaching. Popes have said it is “the sole ark of salvation outside of which no one at all is saved.” Also a Catholic who follows Catholic teachings can be saved but does not have any guarantee unless he dies in a state of grace, which no one can be absolutely sure of apart from a special revelation from God. That said we can have a moral surity that we will be saved or that we are in a state of grace, but we cannot know for sure. Anyone who is not a visible member of the Catholic Church receiving her sacraments is in a much more unstable and uncertain position since he has absolutely no surety or assurance whatsoever that he can possibly be saved unless he enters the Catholic Church. While it’s theoretically possible that someone can be saved through an unconscious desire to enter the Church, we cannot know that for sure and any such a desire for baptism for it to be effectual must be animated by perfect contrition and perfect charity, as the Church previously explicitly taught, and we also know, as the Baltimore Catechism explains, how difficult perfect contrition is to muster even in Catholics who know how to make such acts, so how much harder would it be for someone who knows nothing of perfect charity or contrition or their requirements to make such acts. Mortal sin is a real and very common human reality that bars the soul from heaven, rightfully so. We must do our best to bring souls within the ark for as popes have said and explained that all souls that do not enter will perish in the flood.
 
I have been reading this thread for about one half hour. I have not yet seen one answer that points at what Jesus came to do. He came that we might have life; He came to save all men from eternal death, and not just some, but all, who would believe in Him, what He said, or in the One who sent Him. He died on that cross for all. In His rising we who believe will rise with him.

While many of the writings you have brought up are fine writings from the Catholic church of old, not one person has mentioned the current Pope and the eccumenicalizm he is stressing.

Has anyone out there read Pope Benedict’s encyclical concerning the Word of God, and all christian demominations? It is a real eye-opener for Catholics and other christians! It is a “must read”.

Going back in history to find where we came from is fine, and to help us understand what the popes at that time needed to stress for the people of that time. At this time the christian churches need to pull together for the sake of the one true universal church, which is the church Jesus established, and against which the gates of hell shall not prevail. Jesus broke those gates open when he descended into hell, then ascended back to the Father bringing those who would believe with him. Before then, there was no way for men to return to the Father.

The catechism is a wonderful guide for understanding the Catholic dogma in depth, but it is not the sole universal way to salvation; Jesus is! The word catholic (small “c”) meant and means the universal christian church which can vary from place to place with its rites and rituals.

I consider myself a christian evangelical catholic.
 
awolbob said:
I have been reading this thread for about one half hour. I have not yet seen one answer that points at what Jesus came to do. He came that we might have life; He came to save all men from eternal death, and not just some, but all, who would believe in Him, what He said, or in the One who sent Him. He died on that cross for all. In His rising we who believe will rise with him.

While many of the writings you have brought up are fine writings from the Catholic church of old, not one person has mentioned the current Pope and the eccumenicalizm he is stressing.

Has anyone out there read Pope Benedict’s encyclical concerning the Word of God, and all christian demominations? It is a real eye-opener for Catholics and other christians! It is a “must read”.

Going back in history to find where we came from is fine, and to help us understand what the popes at that time needed to stress for the people of that time. At this time the christian churches need to pull together for the sake of the one true universal church, which is the church Jesus established, and against which the gates of hell shall not prevail. Jesus broke those gates open when he descended into hell, then ascended back to the Father bringing those who would believe with him. Before then, there was no way for men to return to the Father.

The catechism is a wonderful guide for understanding the Catholic dogma in depth, but it is not the sole universal way to salvation; Jesus is! The word catholic (small “c”) meant and means the universal christian church which can vary from place to place with its rites and rituals.

I consider myself a christian evangelical catholic.
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It was Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger who gave the Imprimi Potest to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
 
I know that we aren’t bound to believe private revelation, but I was just curious of what people think about what Bl. Catherine Emmerich wrote about the vision that Jesus allowed her to view purgatory and she said that there were many pious Protestants there and then went on to state how they were there for a long time bc no one prayed them out.
If this vision was true then that would mean that there are those that could be saved outside of the Church?

Any thoughts?
 
NorthTexan88 said:
I know that we aren’t bound to believe private revelation, but I was just curious of what people think about what Bl. Catherine Emmerich wrote about the vision that Jesus allowed her to view purgatory and she said that there were many pious Protestants there and then went on to state how they were there for a long time bc no one prayed them out.
If this vision was true then that would mean that there are those that could be saved outside of the Church?

Any thoughts?
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“…before death they are (were) joined with Her.”
 
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